Thread

Updated Google Maps shows destruction of the city of Rafah

943 points · 947 comments · slowin

bognition · 1790616426 · focus · HN ↗
Its really telling to see the destruction limited to where the structures used to be rather than to all of the surrounding green spaces. If the destruction of civilian dwellings was purely an accident you'd expect to see the destruction spread evenly over the area. Instead it looks much more like a prolonged set of surgical strikes to destroy the buildings while preserving as much of the surrounding areas as possible.
For a great example of this, look at this pin <a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZcMbdFcx87PrqoYNA" rel="nofollow">https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZcMbdFcx87PrqoYNA
And here's a pin of where the farms were spared <a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/iZbbTH4iH27FCz4s9" rel="nofollow">https://maps.app.goo.gl/iZbbTH4iH27FCz4s9
1. ImPostingOnHN · 1790616680 · focus · HN ↗
  They just use bulldozers to flatten whatever the bombs don't. They can drive a bulldozer pretty precisely, especially when they don't care who's in front of it or under it.
  Caterpillar even supplies the IDF with bulldozers just for this purpose, which then get up-armored and sent into Palestinian civilian areas to do this (including unmanned versions).
  <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDF_Caterpillar_D9" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDF_Caterpillar_D9
  1. AuthAuth · 1790617747 · focus · HN ↗
    By the time the bulldozers are there civilians have long moved out of the area.
    ImPostingOnHN · 1790618578 · focus · HN ↗
    Interesting claim. Where did you hear that? The IDF is pretty infamous for crushing people alive with these bulldozers, and also for denying search & rescue access to find civilians buried in the wreckage (and also for just killing said SAR and hiding the bodies and lying about it*).
    * surprise, it was in Rafah, the city formerly located in the wasteland from the article we're discussing: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_paramedic_massacre" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_paramedic_massacre
    porkshoe · 1790635589 · focus · HN ↗
    Rachel Corrie was crushed by an Israeli army bulldozer.
    Let's be clear and honest: Israel is committing a genocide against Palestinians and they routinely murder civilians as part of this.
    johnnyApplePRNG · 1790635638 · focus · HN ↗
    Rachel Corrie would like a word. [0]
    I suggest that you learn more about the Nakba, friend. [1]
    [0] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie
    [1] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
    yyyk · 1790641667 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    laimewhisps · 1790642173 · focus · HN ↗
    Of course it's relevant. Regardless, there are many instances of Israel killing civilians with bulldozers in Gaza.
    antonvs · 1790652470 · focus · HN ↗
    Only a child thinks 2003 was a long time ago.
    yreg · 1790668516 · focus · HN ↗
    Worth noting that Corrie was killed 23 years ago during a different phase of the conflict and under a previous government. (In which Netanyahu served as minister of finance.)
    johnnyApplePRNG · 1790726388 · focus · HN ↗
    That's not really a response to the point being made.
    The claim I was responding to was: "By the time the bulldozers are there civilians have long moved out of the area."
    Rachel Corrie's case is a counterexample to that general claim: she was a civilian physically present in the area of an Israeli military bulldozer operation.
    Saying that it happened 23 years ago, under a different government, doesn't make the counterexample cease to exist.
    It only tells us that the example isn't evidence about every Israeli bulldozer operation today.
    If you're arguing that civilians currently leave before demolition operations in Gaza, then make that case.
    "That happened under a previous government" doesn't establish that.
    yreg · 1790852735 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm not arguing for anything. I'm just adding context, because your comment read as if it happened during the 'current phase' of the conflict. That's a crucial detail to omit, imho.
    ImPostingOnHN · 1790887749 · focus · HN ↗
    > your comment read as if it happened during the 'current phase' of the conflict
    I don't think anyone else "read" it like that.
    > That's a crucial detail to omit
    It really isn't. No international body decided on "phases" to delinate combat, and given that there is not yet apology or atonement or peace since, that "phase" never ended.
    yreg · 1790929230 · focus · HN ↗
    Everyone who has not heard of her before thought that you are referring to something that happened now and not decades ago.
    I was surprised and felt mislead.
    I'm not sure what are you even arguing with me about. If it doesn't weaken your argument than it shouldn't matter to you that I've added factual context.
    someonebaggy · 1790697559 · focus · HN ↗
    Interesting: the word "nakba" translates to Hebrew as "shoah" which is what many Jews call the (German) Holocaust - they're not even trying to hide what they're doing.
    johnnyApplePRNG · 1790725501 · focus · HN ↗
    Wow. I had no idea.
    ImPostingOnHN · 1790739007 · focus · HN ↗
    "nakba" translates to "catastrophe".
    if you translate "catastrophe" to hebrew, you might get "shoah".
    guess it just goes to show how different cultures independently come up with similar names for similar things
    someonebaggy · 1790756604 · focus · HN ↗
    First sentence. "The Holocaust, known in Hebrew as the Shoah, was ..."
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
    ImPostingOnHN · 1790823267 · focus · HN ↗
    Interesting how both peoples independently used the same word, but I guess when something truly is a catastrophe, other words can fail you.
    manyaoman · 1790761357 · focus · HN ↗
    Thanks for sharing. At this point I'm so numb to the destruction that this piece of trivia got to me more than the new satellite photos.
    AuthAuth · 1790790796 · focus · HN ↗
    Different war I am referring to the 2023 Gaza war but my point still stands the incident you linked is not a civilan being run over. "the IDF was engaged in an operation involving the demolition of Palestinian houses in Rafah. Corrie was part of a group of three British and four American ISM activists attempting to disrupt the IDF operation." If you are embedding yourself in Gaza 2003 during the 2nd intifada and doing this you arent a civilan.
    tpowell · 1790646491 · focus · HN ↗
    And then they bomb them in their tent cities while blocking aid, all while murdering hundreds of journalists so no one sees...
    Been watching it for years. A great stain on history, with weapons paid for and built by Americans, not to mention a complicit media.
2. biimugan · 1790619643 · focus · HN ↗
  I don't quite understand your argument here. In your first pin I'm struggling to find a single building that isn't leveled, or at least severely damaged. Even buildings far away from the city center in the boonies are leveled.
  1. cogman10 · 1790637175 · focus · HN ↗
    They are saying that this is genocidal destruction. In a war sometimes civilian infrastructure is hit as collateral. But here, all infrastructure is destroyed and it's clear this wasn't done by 1 or 2 errant bombs but rather because of direct targeting. It can't be argued to be an accident because in farmland you see no bombs which hit the farmland by mistake. In other-words, this is entirely purposeful.
    [deleted] · 1790641760 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    teleforce · 1790642011 · focus · HN ↗
    >this is entirely purposeful
    Please check Norman Finkelstein's latest book namely Gaza's Gravediggers on this matter [1].
    He also has a very telling and chilling interview recently on Palestine and Gaza [2].
    [1] Gaza's Gravediggers: An Inquiry into Corruption in High Places [book].
    [2] Norman Finkelstein Reveals Shocking Discoveries While Researching History of Israel’s Gaza Obsession [video]:
    <a href="https://youtu.be/Jmv2h1WYnNo" rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/Jmv2h1WYnNo
    yyyk · 1790642389 · focus · HN ↗
    What a nice, objective guy:
    <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/uyqjn2/norman_finkelstein_russia_has_the_historical/" rel="nofollow">https://www.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/uyqjn2/norman_fink...
    bluealienpie · 1790643214 · focus · HN ↗
    He also promotes transphobia. Chomsky was friends with Epstein and acquaintance of Steve Bannon. I don’t think that discredits his entire body of work, but I think we should stop promoting him when there are sources that are less problematic.
    cogman10 · 1790643566 · focus · HN ↗
    You are mixing Chomsky (the subreddit) up with Norm (the book author). Norm was friends with Chomsky but not Epstein or Bannon. I'm unaware of him having transphobic views.
    Sabinus · 1790643728 · focus · HN ↗
    I would caution against uncritical consumption of Finkelstein's work. He is a bit unhinged, and limited in what content he can analyse as he can't read Arabic or Hebrew.
    Also Tucker Carlson? Seriously?
    cassepipe · 1790681298 · focus · HN ↗
    Norman Finkelstein's treatment of sources is dubious at best , dishonest at worst, and he is not very good at defending his position when challenged on them
    At least that was my takeaway after watching his debate with Destiny (the streamer) and Benny Morris (the historian):
    You be the judge: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X_KdkoGxSs&list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4&index=85" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X_KdkoGxSs&list=PLrAXtmErZg...
    monirmamoun · 1790704668 · focus · HN ↗
    Save your Hasbara. It is backfiring.
    cassepipe · 1790759447 · focus · HN ↗
    I don't know what that means and I am not going to search for it. Have fun with your ingroup that uses words that only you all know what they mean to recognize each other from the outgroup.
    manyaoman · 1790762279 · focus · HN ↗
    The irony here is so perfect that I don't know what to say. Absolutely masterful.
    cassepipe · 1790798727 · focus · HN ↗
    I am glad to know you like what's happening in your own head. Good for you
    rbanffy · 1790645192 · focus · HN ↗
    A war requires at least two militaries. This is what happens when a well armed military engages a mostly unarmed civilian society unable to mount significant opposition.
    pchristensen · 1790647534 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    torton · 1790649958 · focus · HN ↗
    "Before the October 7, 2023 attacks, the total size of Hamas’s military wing (the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades) was estimated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and intelligence agencies to be between 25,000 and 30,000 fighters, with some intelligence assessments placing the upper limit as high as 40,000. This army was organized into five regional brigades and 24 battalions."
    "Hamas's military force prior to October 7, 2023, was roughly 3 to 4.5 times larger than the United States military when measured as a percentage of their respective total populations."
    k4rli · 1790664120 · focus · HN ↗
    Source: the aggressors
    choo-t · 1790665445 · focus · HN ↗
    No link to a source ?
    Anyway, IDF as ≈170k active duty personnel and 465k reservists[1]. Literally a different order of magnitude. Add to it the vast different of resources, access to an air force and nuclear weapons and it become even more clearer that there is no comparison possible.
    (And comparing personnel count to the USA is laughable as it is vastly different military type. Both a fighter jet pilot and a foot soldier count as one personnel, but it's neither the same force projection nor the same investment of civilians working for the war machine).
    1: <a href="https://eu.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2023/10/14/idf-explainer-on-israeli-defense-forces-idf/71133855007/" rel="nofollow">https://eu.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2023/10/14/idf-explai...
    rbanffy · 1790671398 · focus · HN ↗
    You don't need to compare the military forces. You can compare the casualties on both sides or, for a different perspective, you might count the civilians killed inside their own territories (you might count the West Bank if you really want accurate numbers).
    Forced displacement is also considered a war crime and, considering what is happening in Gaza and at the West Bank, it would qualify as genocide as well.
    jayGlow · 1790677096 · focus · HN ↗
    comparing the casualties just shows that Hamas are incompetent not that they aren't trying.
    rbanffy · 1790679502 · focus · HN ↗
    I was hoping the numbers would make it obvious the reaction is disproportionate and careless with the lives of civilians.
    lukan · 1790689430 · focus · HN ↗
    Yeah, there even is this old archaic rule from the bible/torah/quran, "eye for an eye" that is usually considered barbaric and outdated. But here they go by 35:1 ratio.
    gegtik · 1790689578 · focus · HN ↗
    new Voight-Kampff test just dropped
    rbanffy · 1790692151 · focus · HN ↗
    I wish I could turn off empathy at my convenience.
    erkt · 1790689599 · focus · HN ↗
    They are not civilians.
    They launched a war against their neighbors, poorly.
    They hid the tunnels of their army, poorly.
    There is only one solution to the Gaza problem, no more Gaza.
    jibalt · 1790692341 · focus · HN ↗
    It is obvious, but it is also to be expected that a significant number of people here, as elsewhere, will rationalize genocide ... and the comment you responded to is particularly crude in its lack of humanity.
    jayGlow · 1790896386 · focus · HN ↗
    Hamas has launched 19,000 missiles at Israel should they just stop intercepting them to make the death toll more even? If someone refuses to stop attacking you what's the appropriate response do you just sit there while they try to kill you?
    <a href="https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/06/11/19000-rockets-launched-at-israel-since-hamass-october-7-atrocities/" rel="nofollow">https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/06/11/19000-rockets-launch...
    jayGlow · 1790896501 · focus · HN ↗
    Hamas has launched 10s of thousands of rockets and mortars at Israel what is an appropriate response for them? Should they just sit there letting someone try to kill them or should they retaliate? How many casualties is an acceptable amount?
    <a href="https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/06/11/19000-rockets-launched-at-israel-since-hamass-october-7-atrocities/" rel="nofollow">https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/06/11/19000-rockets-launch...
    newspaper1 · 1790898496 · focus · HN ↗
    What do they expect when they murder an entire country full of people and steal their land? Israel shouldn't exist, problem solved.
    jayGlow · 1790958063 · focus · HN ↗
    When did they murder an entire country? Last time I checked people still live in Palestine, in fact the population been steadily increasing over the past 40 or so years. Is your solution that the people of Israel should just die instead of fighting back?
    newspaper1 · 1790959079 · focus · HN ↗
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
    Every Israeli prime minister has been European. Every one. The answer is to return to their homeland and let the remaining Palestinians return to theirs.
    erkt · 1790689398 · focus · HN ↗
    Maybe they should be treated like the festival goers?
    mossTechnician · 1790692433 · focus · HN ↗
    The IDF has killed not just a higher number but also a higher percentage of civilians, and a much higher percentage of children, than the October 7 attacks[0]. Even if collective punishment was considered not cruel but moral by the larger community, Israel has far surpassed it.
    [0]: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war
    someonebaggy · 1790697149 · focus · HN ↗
    They would be better off if they were.
    hmijail · 1790772264 · focus · HN ↗
    That percentage comparison is fascinating. Say only 1 fighter remains in a tunnel when all the civilians have been finally bombed out and sniped off. By that measure that would mean Hamas is what, 50 times larger than the USA's military?
    bonesss · 1790664118 · focus · HN ↗
    There were a lot of arms used over the border on October 7th, more confiscated on video and being used on video against the IDF, and the constant stream of unguided rockets being shot at civilians year after year. Rockets are weapons.
    Hamas describes its fighters as their “military wing”. They engage in military training exercises and wear uniforms (when not fighting). That’s a military.
    While it may be dumb, gross, and a hate crime against their civilians: war was the exact and predicted outcome of the attacks Hamas launched. They made statements to that effect, kicking off a regional war was central to the plan on October the 7th.
    iririririr · 1790668058 · focus · HN ↗
    almost as if they didn't have the best interest of the civilians in mind uh
    rbanffy · 1790671530 · focus · HN ↗
    As Emiliano Zapata once said, "Better to die standing than to live on your knees".
    While I don't condone violence, it's a legitimate way to defend against occupation.
    someonebaggy · 1790678769 · focus · HN ↗
    This is actually codified in international law IIRC - a nation that's subject to some kind of apartheid occupation has literally unlimited rights to resist its occupiers.
    SiempreViernes · 1790681729 · focus · HN ↗
    While Hamas does have a right of armed struggle against the occupation, the taking of hostages and the killing of civilians are not permissible forms of resistance.
    That said, it is almost impossible to imagine that the Israeli response would have been something lesser than the current genocide attempt if Hamas had just taken POWs during the October 7 attack. Bibi would have arguably been even more humiliated if Hamas had been acting with restraint, so the impulse for revenge would be even greater.
    rhasimus · 1790682655 · focus · HN ↗
    Making up scenarios sure is fun. Let me try!
    It is almost impossible to imagine Israel would even look at the direction of Gaza had they just taken the statehood offers presented to them in 1947, 2000, 2001, or 2008, instead of repeatedly choosing terrorizing civilians over gasp compromising.
    someonebaggy · 1790684870 · focus · HN ↗
    What were the offers?
    ta8903 · 1790687846 · focus · HN ↗
    >It is almost impossible to imagine Israel would even look at the direction of Gaza had they just taken the statehood offers presented to them in 1947, 2000, 2001, or 2008
    It's very much possible to imagine that.
    someonebaggy · 1790697229 · focus · HN ↗
    Considering every single offer that was accepted by both sides was immediately violated by the Israeli side
    rhasimus · 1790716556 · focus · HN ↗
    Hey another flat out lie by the same user... "the Second Intifada began immediately after the collapse of major peace negotiations." You seem to be mixing up the aggressor with the Aggressé, seemingly intentionally, multiple times in a row.
    throwaway198846 · 1790686316 · focus · HN ↗
    This show how little you understand Israelis. First this isn't about Bibi, second ot wasn't humiliation but failure, third no atrocities on civilians would certainly changed the response - probably equivalent to a larger cast lead operation which also act as precedent of how Israel acted on the past.
    gosub100 · 1790691959 · focus · HN ↗
    Bibi was aware of the plans, and allowed the attack to manufacture support for the greater Israel project.
    rhasimus · 1790681959 · focus · HN ↗
    Why would one just plainly lie like that? (╭ರ_•́)
    According to International Humanitarian Law: Targeting, killing, or kidnapping civilians is strictly prohibited and constitutes a war crime, regardless of the legality of the underlying cause. Torture, hostage-taking, and executions of captured individuals are strictly forbidden under all circumstances.
    All of which are actions that were done by Hamas and Gazans who invaded on Oct 7th. A lot of which was recorded on video, by Hamas and Gazans.
    lukan · 1790689092 · focus · HN ↗
    Targeting military - yes, under certain conditions.
    Targeting civilian homes and a festival - nothing legitimate about that.
    erkt · 1790689077 · focus · HN ↗
    Then maybe the civilians should kill their Hamas neighbors, instead of cheering them in the streets and supporting the actions of Oct 7th…
    LorenPechtel · 1790697743 · focus · HN ↗
    Hamas chose this war, expecting the results they got.
    What you are missing here is that Hamas' primary weapon is parading dead Gazans in front of the camera.
    what · 1790647575 · focus · HN ↗
    If it was genocide, why would you spare the farmers? Doesn’t really make sense.
    aetch · 1790659945 · focus · HN ↗
    It’s more efficient to spend your ammo on housing and city buildings.
    echoangle · 1790665528 · focus · HN ↗
    Wouldn’t it actually be much more efficient to just destroy all the food infrastructure and just have everyone die from hunger instead of destroying all the houses?
    a_paddy · 1790665846 · focus · HN ↗
    You're right, it is, hence the strikes on World Central Kitchen and the blockade on food entering the area.
    iririririr · 1790668148 · focus · HN ↗
    they send armed settlers for the farms. they can't destroy those
    choo-t · 1790666532 · focus · HN ↗
    Food production was target, even in different part of Palestine (west bank).
    Farmers were killed, even in different part of Palestine.
    Killing farmers have nothing to do with the definition of genocide.
    neor · 1790670284 · focus · HN ↗
    Farmland wasn't bombed, but they did use Bulldozers to destroy a lot of fields.
    thinkindie · 1790670938 · focus · HN ↗
    there are videos of bulldozer in the West Bank eradicating secular olive trees from Palestinian farmland. There is no Hamas in West Bank, no tunnels, no fighters.
    t3po · 1790708187 · focus · HN ↗
    just a few discovered this week alone.
    tgsovlerkhgsel · 1790657626 · focus · HN ↗
    Looks the same in Ukraine, and at least there it's most likely not primarily because Russians wanted flatten the city (I'm sure they'd have preferred taking it in one piece) but rather because fighting happens from buildings resulting in the buildings getting targeted.
    Doesn't mean that here the targeting couldn't have been done with the primary goal of displacing the population, but the buildings being destroyed doesn't prove the motive.
    newspaper1 · 1790657998 · focus · HN ↗
    Does it look the same in the Ukraine? I haven’t seen any footage of entire cities leveled like this.
    TiredOfLife · 1790659982 · focus · HN ↗
    <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-26/damage-data-reveals-extent-of-vicious-russian-tactics/101070918" rel="nofollow">https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-26/damage-data-reveals-e...
    <a href="https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/5/24/satellite-images-show-scale-of-destruction-in-bakhmut-ukraine" rel="nofollow">https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/5/24/satellite-...
    And that just from the start of war.
    megous · 1790667309 · focus · HN ↗
    Yeah, we can look at how Mariupol looks on satellite images. It looks nothing like Rafah. You have to be completely blind to not see the difference.
    cpursley · 1790670549 · focus · HN ↗
    In fact, Mariupol looks like this now and those are locals walking around: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@MariupolVideo/videos" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/@MariupolVideo/videos
    virgilp · 1790674857 · focus · HN ↗
    Here: <a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/TncezF72LxaWAKYY7" rel="nofollow">https://maps.app.goo.gl/TncezF72LxaWAKYY7
    brabel · 1790679871 · focus · HN ↗
    That’s Bahkmut which is still close to the frontline. They were talking about Mariupol which the Russians have actually rebuilt already, see here: <a href="https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mariupol,+Donetsk+Oblast,+Ukraine,+87500/@47.1012584,37.5358044,15z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x40e6e6a7bee7582b:0xa5d118300a75b5ce!8m2!3d47.097133!4d37.543367!16zL20vMDRmcHZz?utm_campaign=ml-le-16204869&g_ep=Eg1tbF8yMDI2MDkyMl8wIOC7DCoASAJQAg%3D%3D" rel="nofollow">https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mariupol,+Donetsk+Oblast,+...
    virgilp · 1790682071 · focus · HN ↗
    No, Mariupol was just one (arguably not the best) example answer to the original question, "Does it look the same in the Ukraine? I haven’t seen any footage of entire cities leveled like this."
    wongarsu · 1790682280 · focus · HN ↗
    "Russia is claiming it as theirs for the last four years and has largely rebuilt it" is not really counter-evidence to destruction during the fighting
    Mariupol probably did see less destruction. But for the actively contested regions, the biggest difference between Russian destruction and Israeli destruction is that the Russians use artillery, which leaves shells of buildings standing, while Israel uses bulldozers that are a lot more thorough in leaving no stone on the other
    someonebaggy · 1790716297 · focus · HN ↗
    Also the Palestinian buildings are practically made of cardboard because that's all the supplies they can get (because mysteriously supplies keep not arriving, oh well, no way to know why they don't)
    tgsovlerkhgsel · 1790707697 · focus · HN ↗
    <a href="https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mar'inka,+Donetsk+Oblast,+Ukraine/@47.9398557,37.5033743,1070m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x40e0a23e885a49c1:0x5db935ecafec4ca!8m2!3d47.9422861!4d37.5040301!16zL20vMGd0c19o" rel="nofollow">https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mar'inka,+Donetsk+Oblast,+...
    virgilp · 1790667257 · focus · HN ↗
    Seriouslly?
    You can find lots of videos of Russia firing thermobaric weapons into populated areas - you will find none fired by Israel into Gaza. And I don't think that's because IL doesn't have them.
    virgilp · 1790675182 · focus · HN ↗
    (i can't edit apparently): why the downvotes? Serious question I don't understand, is there anything I said above false? The parent comment is questioning whether RU cruelty in Ukraine is anything close to what IL did - and the answer is yes, it's actually much worse, especially when you factor in that it's completely unprovoked.
    brabel · 1790680044 · focus · HN ↗
    There is no way it’s worse. To be comparable the Russians would have to have flattened Kyiv and most other cities which is extremely far from reality. The cities being flattened are all in the frontline as there is no way to take a city by force without basically destroying every building.
    virgilp · 1790682294 · focus · HN ↗
    > The cities being flattened are all in the frontline as there is no way to take a city by force without basically destroying every building.
    It's exactly the same in Gaza! You basically justified Israel's actions here... Check the distance between Gaza City & Israel border, vs distance beetween Bakhmut & Russia's border. Tell me which one is farther away - I'll wait
    someonebaggy · 1790716350 · focus · HN ↗
    I wonder why Israel put the border there.
    close04 · 1790681287 · focus · HN ↗
    The destruction in Ukraine is mostly focused on the front line. Gaza was treated as a front line almost in its entirety, with almost no place to hide.
    virgilp · 1790682997 · focus · HN ↗
    Entire Gaza is frontline. It's 365 square kilometers - a lot smaller that UKR frontline. It's barely the size of Mariupol (which according to UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights report [1] had 90% of high-rise buildings destroyed or heavily damaged; and 60% of private houses. But if you know anything about former communist countries - in cities like Mariupol, most people lived in high-rise buildings). Now, bear in mind that according to the discussion we have here, a lot of people seem to believe that Mariupol got off easily and the destruction it suffered doesn't even compare to destruction in Bakhmut, Avdiivka, Vuhledar etc
    [1]<a href="https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/countries/ua/2022-06-29/2022-06-UkraineArmedAttack-EN.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/countrie...
    close04 · 1790694592 · focus · HN ↗
    That's exactly why Gaza took it far worse than anything Russia can do in Ukraine. Gaza is shooting fish in a barrel and Israel fishes with dynamite and white phosphorus in that barrel. The Gaza war is about sterilizing that land of all its people, who I'm told aren't even considered people. Even Russia didn't go that far.
    virgilp · 1790700566 · focus · HN ↗
    > who I'm told aren't even considered people
    EXACTLY. You are told.
    If that was really the goal, I go back to my previous point - wouldn't thermobaric bombs be faster, more economic & more convenient? It just makes no logical sense. If you already declared them to be monsters, what exactly is holding them back?
    close04 · 1790751045 · focus · HN ↗
    It was a figure of speech. I'm told with evidence.
    virgilp · 1790864629 · focus · HN ↗
    Care to share the evidence?
    close04 · 1790949696 · focus · HN ↗
    You know how you don't convince a flat earther with evidence? You're not looking to be convinced, you just want to prove you're smarter than everyone else. You'll always have some silly vague argument that you can hang on to for dear life and pretend that invalidates the other person's case. I don't have time for pointless exercises you need as validation. :)
    virgilp · 1791112756 · focus · HN ↗
    All I see is that you're likely just ashamed to show out how weak your so-called "evidence" is, and instead chose to go on "you wouldn't believe it anyway" route. Yeah, if I won't believe it then it's probably due to the fact you yourself already know it's flimsy.
    westpfelia · 1790676206 · focus · HN ↗
    To busy using white phosphorous on kids.
    virgilp · 1790678993 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    cassepipe · 1790680399 · focus · HN ↗
    I think your distinction is a valid one, Israel has some war crimes going on whereas russian invasion of Ukraine was a war crime festival but you are fighting an uphill battle because trying to make distinctions in levels of evil is generally frowned upon because to many people it looks like justification. The reason is because most people can't imagine any other value to making distinctions in evil. I personally can but each time you are going to do it, you should be prepared to defend why, in fact, making those distinctions is useful while being clear that the purpose is not justification of evil acts. It's a thin line to walk on.
    virgilp · 1790683953 · focus · HN ↗
    There are a bunch of people here who _genuinely_ do not comprehend that Russia is on a completely different league of evilness compared to Israel (and may even consider Israel worse!). This, while Russia is literally the source/engine of a significant part of all the evil in this world - and I wish I was hyperbolic when saying that. FWIW, that's exactly their doctrine, that "everybody is bad, so why bother to make the distinction, it's not like the others are good". And that's exactly how you end up in other countries too with genuinely evil rulers like some of those we see today.
    Anyway. Rant over, otherwise I'll veer too much into politics :)
    westpfelia · 1790687019 · focus · HN ↗
    744 ukranian children killed.
    <a href="https://gwaramedia.com/en/russia-has-killed-744-injured-almost-3000-ukrainian-children-since-full-scale-invasion-began/" rel="nofollow">https://gwaramedia.com/en/russia-has-killed-744-injured-almo...
    20000 palestianian children killed
    <a href="https://theconversation.com/a-un-report-details-the-overwhelming-scale-of-children-killed-in-gaza-it-raises-grave-legal-questions-286327" rel="nofollow">https://theconversation.com/a-un-report-details-the-overwhel...
    more then 20 times the children killed in half time time.
    virgilp · 1790691723 · focus · HN ↗
    Only children matter? But, fine. How many were kidnapped? At least IDF can claim that they didn't intentionally target children - with kidnapping, that's harder. And the discrepancy in numbers can also be caused by how much Ukraine vs Hamas care about said children / how much they are put in harm's way.
    someonebaggy · 1790697371 · focus · HN ↗
    What do you call aiming a sniper rifle at a child, centering her in the scope, accounting for drop, and then pulling the trigger? Seems pretty intentional to me, but maybe the sniper's finger slipped and did all that by accident?
    virgilp · 1790700304 · focus · HN ↗
    you believe those were sniper kills? :o Where did you get that from, the Hamas "x-rays" where bullets conveniently lodged inside a child cranium instead of shattering the surrounding bones?
    janc_ · 1790736337 · focus · HN ↗
    There are enough Israeli videos, texts, interviews & testimonies about IDF soldiers intentionally targetting children & bragging about it. No need to depend on Hamas communications.
    cassepipe · 1790760669 · focus · HN ↗
    I call it a awful thing to do.
    I don't know what you are referring to. I suppose yet another war crime from the israeli army but this conflict generates a lot of dis/misinformation and it's hard enough to assess the trustworthiness of a source. If you don't even care to provide any source, you are just venting
    It's not because you are angry about the state of the world that it absolves you of the moral duty to engage usefully with others. I know I have changed my mind on some subjects but it was never with one lazy comment like this one.
    Now why is what you are talking about worse than aiming deliberately a supermarket full of civilians with a missile or hunting a grandpa with a fpv drone ? I don't really understand why you would choose to draw a line there. We already have a internationally recognized line in the sand that is somewhat actionable: War crime. It's hard to argue for genocide, it's easier to denounce and investigate suspected war crimes.
    I, for one, think all war crimes are bad and should be the line in the sand where international pressure should be at its maximum.
    Gaza invasion is a counterinsurgency type of war in an tighlty urbanized environment where the invader has apparently quite limited care about human life. It is not really surprising that more children would be killed there. Those are two different wars with war crimes happening in both.
    cassepipe · 1790680923 · focus · HN ↗
    Well, Russia's use of white phosphorous during the invasion and ensuing occupation of Ukraine is well documented
    MiroslavPokorny · 1790671471 · focus · HN ↗
    Many of the towns along the front with Russia are also wastelands. Nearly every single building from homes, to schools, to shops are rubble.
    newsclues · 1790680640 · focus · HN ↗
    <a href="https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/10/28/how-russias-invasion-flattened-a-ukrainian-border-city/" rel="nofollow">https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/10/28/how-russias-invas...
    megous · 1790667199 · focus · HN ↗
    It does not look the same, at all.
    chewchewchew · 1790680404 · focus · HN ↗
    Cities in the heat of the conflict (i.e boots on the ground) sure do look like that
    kergonath · 1790671561 · focus · HN ↗
    > Looks the same in Ukraine
    It does not.
    > and at least there it's most likely not primarily because Russians wanted flatten the city (I'm sure they'd have preferred taking it in one piece) but rather because fighting happens from buildings resulting in the buildings getting targeted.
    What happened on the Ukrainian frontlines is a war of position. Everything gets pounded, even forests and tree lines. It’s more like Verdun than anything that happened in Gaza.
    JumpCrisscross · 1790673200 · focus · HN ↗
    > It does not
    In absolutely does [1].
    > What happened on the Ukrainian frontlines is a war of position
    If Gaza is a genocide then Ukraine almost certainly is too. The same messaging about exterminating a culture that doesn't "actually" exist from senior leadership. The same attacks on children. The same destruction and systematic razing of civilian settlements.
    [1] <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ySLyCjNnrI" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ySLyCjNnrI
    cassepipe · 1790680031 · focus · HN ↗
    It can be (and is imho) true that both Russia and Israel have broadcasted genocidal intent with the consequences being war crimes and still not look identical
    It seems like the state of Ukraine frontline cities is due to intense artillery fire and air bombingn whereas gaza cities states seem to be more of systematic bulldozing of entire areas which would erase the marks of actual bombings and make the scale harder to assess
    cpursley · 1790680945 · focus · HN ↗
    So explain all these videos then, AI perhaps? Those aren't really locals who have returned, but actors?:
    <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@MariupolVideo/videos" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/@MariupolVideo/videos
    kergonath · 1790689402 · focus · HN ↗
    > If Gaza is a genocide then Ukraine almost certainly is too.
    Both are the results of aggressive madmen, but both situations are different. And the genocide aspect is not what is discussed here.
    Also, why do you think that “Russia is doing the same thing” is some kind of gotcha?
    jameshilliard · 1790717549 · focus · HN ↗
    > Both are the results of aggressive madmen, but both situations are different.
    Are the madmen you're referring to Putin and Sinwar?
    21asdffdsa12 · 1790676089 · focus · HN ↗
    Well, it happened in germany with the hitleryouth and volksturm.
    newsclues · 1790680572 · focus · HN ↗
    The same thing happens in Ukraine in the urban front lines. Villages get erased with artillery and bombs, as basements are the best place to survive drones and fires from artillery and bombs.
    Systematic destruction of urban areas is sadly what modern urban combat operations look like.
    When an enemy digs in and choose to fight and die in an urban area, this is how war plays out.
    <a href="https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/10/28/how-russias-invasion-flattened-a-ukrainian-border-city/" rel="nofollow">https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/10/28/how-russias-invas...
    WAR IS HELL
    potatototoo99 · 1790685343 · focus · HN ↗
    Rafah was no village, with 250,000 to 280,000 people.
    newsclues · 1790697488 · focus · HN ↗
    Similar size to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol
    kergonath · 1790689351 · focus · HN ↗
    > The same thing happens in Ukraine in the urban front lines. Villages get erased with artillery and bombs, as basements are the best place to survive drones and fires from artillery and bombs.
    But that’s not what we see in Gaza. The parents specifically mentioned that only towns were leveled. The destroyed towns are not the only relevant aspect. The other one is that major damage happens only there. And of course it would, because the Israeli forces don’t want to sterilise the land; they want to take it. In contrast, Russia is happy to be king of the rubble as long as Ukrainians eat shells.
    newsclues · 1790697262 · focus · HN ↗
    If your enemy is dug in in an urban area, you bomb the hell out of it before you send in infantry to clean up. If you don’t use artillery and bombs the defenders will mow down the assault units.
    This is how urban war is played out between near peer armies.
    Think about this, I’m in a concrete bunker with a machine gun, do you want to charge the bunker and get shot, or do you want to call in an airstrike to destroy the bunker with the machine gun position? I know what I’d do
    mthoms · 1790702285 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    _DeadFred_ · 1790693020 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm sorry, Ukraine war discussion was labeled political on HN, not allowed, actively moderated and shutdown. Please don't post it here. Only Gaza/Israel get's a special carveout for these sorts of discussions on HN.
    YZF · 1790664511 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    pjc50 · 1790674830 · focus · HN ↗
    > evacuation orders. This prompted an estimated 1 million to 1.4 million civilians
    "Evacuating" a million people who will not be allowed to return is "ethnic cleansing".
    SiempreViernes · 1790681861 · focus · HN ↗
    It's not even evacuation because the IDF does not provide facilities to go to, it's just forced displacement.
    someonebaggy · 1790697460 · focus · HN ↗
    And the one major time (and probably many more unreported) that they did provide an evacuation site, they waited for the evacuation, then bombed the shit out of the evacuation site claiming "Hamas is here lol"
    YZF · 1790713474 · focus · HN ↗
    Well. Hamas was there. Those attacks targeted specific people and we know they were killed. Israel did not bomb the shit out of the evacuation site, the number of civilians killed in Al-Muasi was extremely low. A lot less than e.g. the allies killed in Mosul where they did not evacuate the population.
    Mohammed Deif. The head of Hamas' military wing. Was killed in the humanitarian zone. Rafah Salameh. The head of the Khan Younis brigade. Was killed in the humanitarian zone.
    These claims are repeated a lot. They are baseless. A critical mind and a bit of research will prove that to you.
    It doesn't matter what Israel does. In Rafah Israel objectively and measurably did much better than western armies fighting against Mosul in terms of civilian casualties (and you can include those in the humanitarian zones, still better). But Israel is held to a higher standard.
    EDIT: And more: Yassin Rabia, Khaled Nagar, Osama Tabesh, Ayman Mabhouh, Samer Ismail Khadr Aby Daqqa. Fact check me. Also Israel has documented rocket launching from humanitarian zones. Israel has also retrieved bodies of hostages (including Hersh Goldberg) from tunnels under humanitarian zones.
    someonebaggy · 1790714536 · focus · HN ↗
    If you just kill everyone you do often kill the people you were looking for as well.
    YZF · 1790713080 · focus · HN ↗
    1) They will be allowed to return.
    2) It is a requirement by international law.
    3) If we compare this to the Battle of Mosul. Which is a pretty good comparison. They are very similar. That battle had a much larger civilian casualty count. The allies there decided to not evacuate the population and the result of that was a much larger number of civilian deaths. Are you proposing that Israel should have done the same? I.e. not evacuate the population and have a significantly higher number of civilian casualties? Do you feel that if Israel did that it would enjoy a similar support as the allies had when they went after ISIS in Mosul?
    Basically Israel did the right thing here. Provably better (judging by the number of civilian casualties) than the western armies that allied against ISIS did in Mosul. The ethnic cleansing allegation is not supported by evidence and really can't be proven until the war is over.
    erkt · 1790688902 · focus · HN ↗
    I’m not sure your point? They are not civilians when they are covering up tunnels in their homes for Hamas to use.
    maeln · 1790689345 · focus · HN ↗
    Look at Google map of Gaza city, Rafah, Khan-Younes, Al Qarara, ... pretty much all building have been destroyed. You want to try to argue that every one of them was somehow hiding a tunnel ?
    tengbretson · 1790692799 · focus · HN ↗
    Is having tunnels in their own territory a problem?
    t3po · 1790708130 · focus · HN ↗
    how much funding and aid did Gaza receive prior to October 7th? they had plenty of opps to build a healthy community. They chose terrorism. Ammunitions were hidden in hostpitals and childrens schools. Israeli gave ample warning to leave building before they were demolished.
    jameshilliard · 1790717418 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
  2. skissane · 1790641897 · focus · HN ↗
    You can also see a lot of buildings demolished on the Egyptian side too.
    In 2015, the Egyptian government announced a plan to demolish the entire Egyptian city of Rafah, in order to deter smuggling with the Gaza Strip. More than a decade on, most of it is gone. The residents were forcibly relocated to elsewhere in Egypt.
    elcritch · 1790648158 · focus · HN ↗
    It also looks similar to Mosul in Iraq before and after the ISIS and Iraq and coalition forces fought:
    <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/07/15/world/middleeast/mosul-before-after.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/07/15/world/middlee...
    Urban warfare is brutal, especially when one side systematically digs in and uses IEDs and booby traps in civilian buildings.
    megous · 1790667099 · focus · HN ↗
    Yeah, this is not what happened here. You can look up Israeli articles from the time that described that nothing was going on for weeks on end other than demolitions. Basically no fighting. You get Israeli politicians repeating beforehand that Rafah will get leveled.
    They wanted to level the city, they did. That's all. There was some fighting eventually with a few fighters holed in in Rafah, but nothing that would justify this. And Israelis continue leveling entire areas the whole year after so called "ceasefire" during which there were almost no attacks on them, yet they managed to murder more than a thousand of people.
    21asdffdsa12 · 1790676033 · focus · HN ↗
    So, you are directly saying no genocide? Just empty house- and then demolishing the possible booby trapped tunnel endpoint?
    LorenPechtel · 1790696451 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    mobelkh · 1790697384 · focus · HN ↗
    flattens the entire city? absolutely not, this is not a standard anyone should consider normal
    stickfigure · 1790700793 · focus · HN ↗
    Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Warsaw, Grozny, Aleppo, Mariupol, Carthage... war is hell.
    Sadly it does seem pretty normal.
    gravisultra · 1790703946 · focus · HN ↗
    Even if you take Israel at its word, Hamas only killed 1200 people. How many people did the Nazis or Imperial Japan kill before their cities were destroyed?
    t3po · 1790707875 · focus · HN ↗
    only 1,200 people? are you nuts? every Israeli felt the loss. they are a small country. How can you just say 1,200 people as if its nothing.
    gravisultra · 1790708285 · focus · HN ↗
    Palestinian lives > zionist feelings. If you think 1,200 people is devastating, what do you think about the 75k+ Palestinians murdered by Israel? Again, 1,200 is far, far less than the number of Palestinians murdered by Israel prior to Oct 7th. History can no longer be denied.
    LorenPechtel · 1790798608 · focus · HN ↗
    The 75k deaths in Gaza should be blamed on the side that chose the conflict: Hamas. Human shield deaths are ugly, but the blame must go to the side that caused them to be human shields. The alternative is to create a situation where evil can prevail by hiding behind enough human shields.
    gravisultra · 1790798937 · focus · HN ↗
    The Zionists chose this conflict when they invaded Palestine and ethnically cleansed the indigenous Palestinians. That you call Palestinians murdered by Israel "human shields" is evil.
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
    Daishiman · 1790742922 · focus · HN ↗
    This is not the argument in favor of Israel you think it is
    kyboren · 1790798789 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    erxam · 1790694881 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
3. cavisne · 1790653859 · focus · HN ↗
  Oh 100%, you can see specific buildings (mostly marked as schools) that are still standing.
4. YZF · 1790663982 · focus · HN ↗
  The buildings were levelled with bulldozers for the most part after the civilians left during combat operations against the tunnel infrastructure and any remaining combatants. Not sure what the "surgical strikes" comment is about. Are you asking why weren't open spaces destroyed or attacked?
  1. a_paddy · 1790665596 · focus · HN ↗
    How does bulldozing a family home have any affect on a tunnel?
    vkou · 1790666102 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    fesoliveira · 1790666664 · focus · HN ↗
    That is a definition of a genocide[1].
    [1] <a href="https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition" rel="nofollow">https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition
    mb2100 · 1790667986 · focus · HN ↗
    Not quite. Perhaps you were thinking of "ethnic cleansing" ?
    latexr · 1790670709 · focus · HN ↗
    It seems bonkers to me that we’re nitpicking what to call a given mass extermination of human lives, like some kind of deranged Clippy. Talk about loss of perspective.
    The link provided in your parent post explicitly says there is no precise definition of “ethnic cleansing”, so I don’t even understand why you’d think the distinction matters.
    JumpCrisscross · 1790672642 · focus · HN ↗
    > seems bonkers to me that we’re nitpicking what to call a given mass extermination of human lives
    The OG genocides involved deaths in the millions [1]. That requires killing with industrial efficiency, something that made it categorically unique from the "wipe out the village" warfare that goes back to, probably, before civilisation. (Chimpanzees do it. To my knowledge, they're the only other species that annihilates versus merely fighting off enemies.)
    At lower kill volumes, even in the tens and possibly even hundreds of thousands, the line between conventional warfare done conservatively, conventional warfare done brutally and a process that, if left unhindered, will reach a million-man death toll.
    (Then you have the ambiguity, one which does not apply in Gaza, introduced by displacement also being included in genocide and it starts to intersect pretty much perfectly with war.)
    If we want these words to keep having meaning, we have to nitpick around their use. Otherwise, overinclusivity will consume them.
    [1] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides
    claykkari · 1790673854 · focus · HN ↗
    Nitpick all you want, but at some point you should also ask why this is being debated so widely in the first place, and whether it's time for the international community to step in. Those approaches aren't mutually exclusive.
    JumpCrisscross · 1790674348 · focus · HN ↗
    > you should also ask why this is being debated so widely in the first place
    Because there are lots of wars burning all over the planet. We tried to carve an exception into international law, after WWII, about it being permissible to intervene in the internal affairs of another sovereign state if they're doing genocide. So this is a real debate that should be had. The problem is by practically every definition, there are at least a handful of active genocides happening in multiple theaters around the world.
    The abhorrence of genocide is one that needs to be refreshed with action if we're to restore the norm that it's not okay. But to do that, you have to set the new threshold.
    kyboren · 1790793368 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    dudefeliciano · 1790673944 · focus · HN ↗
    > The OG genocides involved deaths in the millions
    So if less than a million people are killed it's not a genocide? Seems like a very obtuse understanding of the word, which is also defined in the wiki you linked.
    JumpCrisscross · 1790674435 · focus · HN ↗
    > if less than a million people are killed it's not a genocide?
    Nobody said that. OP asked why this is being debated. That's why. It's not clear what generally constitutes a genocide in a way that is separate from warfare in general. (Gaza and Ukraine are simpler, to me, because Russia and Israel explicitly message genocidal intent in a way New Delhi, Beijing and Washington do not.)
    hiddencost · 1790675649 · focus · HN ↗
    There is a technical definition of genocide. There's no ambiguity as to what Israel is doing, only people like you who are probably concern trolling.
    [deleted] · 1790677147 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    JumpCrisscross · 1790677217 · focus · HN ↗
    > There is a technical definition of genocide
    It's incredibly ambiguous. There are very few sets of people who agree on the list of ongoing genocides, much less historic ones. The only places where there is even a semblance of agreement is in Europe and urban America, and that's largely due to deferral to our institutions.
    > There's no ambiguity as to what Israel is doing
    I agree. That doesn't mean it's beyond discussion or debate. I think it's a genocide. I also think that term has been mangled, particularly online, to the point that it's virtually meaningless. (One of the problems with the term is it's grammatically odd. A homicide is a completed murder. Attempted murder is different. A genocide, completed, is an extermination or annihilation. But we give the ongoing project the same grammar as, in other cases, an act.)
    well_ackshually · 1790688215 · focus · HN ↗
    >A genocide, completed, is an extermination or annihilation.
    Which is why zero armenians remain after the armenian genocide
    oh wait no nevermind, your definition is just bullshit. Only one set of people define what is or isn't a genocide: historians. The ICC only covers crimes against humanity. Historians are also in wide agreement (except for the Israel aligned ones) that it is a genocide in Gaza.
    campers · 1790683800 · focus · HN ↗
    <a href="https://www.un.org/en/preventgenocide/rwanda/assets/pdf/GuidanceNote-When%20to%20refer%20to%20a%20situation%20as%20genocide.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.un.org/en/preventgenocide/rwanda/assets/pdf/Guid...
    The legal definition of genocide is precise and includes an element that is often hard to prove: "intent." Determining whether a situation constitutes genocide is factually and legally complex. It should only be made following a careful and detailed examination of the facts against relevant legislation. This examination is carried out to establish State responsibility or individual criminal responsibility for the crime of genocide. It must be done by a competent international or national court with jurisdiction to try such cases, after an investigation that meets appropriate due process standards.
    Correct. If no such court case has delivered a verdict, then by definition no one can rightly claim genocide has occurred.
    As for whats happening, the over represented proportion of male combatant age deaths, the well below average ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in complex urban warfare, the war being in response to an atrocious attack on civilians etc put a big question on the "Only Reasonable Inference" standard.
    well_ackshually · 1790688921 · focus · HN ↗
    You know what, it's been a while since I took the piss out of the hasbara, let's have fun.
    > the well below average ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in complex urban warfare
    Ah, yes, the very urban warfare art of bombing hospitals and refugee camps. Very urban. Much warfare. And you also get to claim that the civilians didn't die from the fighting, merely from the starvation!
    >the war being in response to an atrocious attack on civilians
    Yep. Nothing happened before October 7. 1947 ? Doesn't exist. Nakba? Probably some arab term that means nothing. Close to a century of warfare, torture, humiliation and putting Gazawis into concentration camps ? Naaaah. Hamas is responsible. Bad Hamas.
    > population numbers remaining stable
    There has been no accurate population counts for three years. But thank you for being so generous and letting palestinians reproduce while you park them in camps. Very kosher <3
    >Hamas's initial charter
    No shit, the armed resistance group that was formed to resist with arms against an attacker wants the attacker gone ? Silly Hamas. They should have done like Bibi and kept the actual plan quiet in cabinet meetings.
    Hint: armed resistance against an occupier is legal and encouraged under international law.
    >the rockets fired over the years
    Yep. Israel did nothing. Didn't shoot children in the head, didn't regularly murder palestinians in prisons, didn't conduct raids on Palestinian territories or encourage settlers to colonize more. Poor little Israel.
    >the IRCG commanders statements about a co-ordinated attack from Gaza, southern Lebanon and the West Bank
    You regularly bomb another country, and you think that the other country is in the wrong for finding literally any way to make you eat shit ?
    > the abhorrent attack of October 7th
    A regrettable event and a needless loss of life. I'm not fully sure it justifies a retaliation that causes fifty times more death, destruction and horror, nor will the tribunal that will judge you for your crimes against humanity.
    latexr · 1790675748 · focus · HN ↗
    > OP asked why this is being debated.
    I did not. I lamented (it was not a question) that we’re nitpicking (it’s not a debate) the definition, especially when the person in question suggested an alternative which is not defined.
    I do wonder if you’d care about this conversation if you and your family were the ones being killed. If one of those people were in front of you crying for their home and life and asked for your compassion and help in fleeing the genocide, would you turn to them and say “ackchyually, someone on Hacker News said this is merely an ethnic cleansing, you’re on your own”?
    JumpCrisscross · 1790677098 · focus · HN ↗
    > do wonder if you’d care about this conversation if you and your family were the ones being killed
    No. At that point, whether it's a genocide or not is kind of irrelevant. They're being killed. War doesn't need extra bits attached to it to be horrible.
    > would you turn to them and say “ackchyually
    What is this.
    latexr · 1790679599 · focus · HN ↗
    > No. At that point, whether it's a genocide or not is kind of irrelevant. They're being killed. War doesn't need extra bits attached to it to be horrible.
    Right. So what I’m saying is let’s have some empathy and compassion for other people. Let’s focus on how horrible it is and what we can do, the same way we would hope others would do for us if we were the ones in that situation.
    WarmWash · 1790689666 · focus · HN ↗
    At what point does Israel go
    "Ya know what, everybody already has us marked as commiting genocide, so why don't we just actually do it?"
    The civilian population of Palestinians has shrunk ~1% since the war started, despite Israel have the weapons to actually just kill everyone.
    someonebaggy · 1790678526 · focus · HN ↗
    One of the items on this list has only 3000 deaths. Genocide isn't about how many people you succeed in killing.
    customguy · 1790678529 · focus · HN ↗
    Oddly, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_genocide" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_genocide is not listed?
    I'm not a genocide scholar, so may be way off the mark here, but imagine a language that only has a few 100 native speakers left. There's one person who really hates them, writes in his diary about how he longs for that culture to cease, and then he murders the only remaining historian or language teacher of that group. Is that attempted genocide? A little bit?
    My point isn't "yeah it is" because I don't know, but I'm very certain that I'm still closer to whatever the heart of it is, than sheer "kill volume". We already have a word for massacres and mass murder, and genocide usually comes hand in hand with those and many other crimes, but it's not those crimes.
    well_ackshually · 1790688069 · focus · HN ↗
    .. any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
    (a) Killing members of the group; (check) (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (check) (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (check) (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (check) (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.[8] (check)
    Israel is a genocidal, apartheid state and the biggest threat to the stability of the middle east. Whataboutism will not change facts.
    kyboren · 1790794977 · focus · HN ↗
    Well, Israel certainly doesn't intend to destroy Arabs, Muslims, or brown-skinned people more broadly, and you can't honestly claim "Palestine" is a nation:
    - no defined territory--and certainly none broadly recognized
    - no unique language or ethnicity
    - a culture only distinguished from Egypt and the Levant by their penchant for terrorism
    - a history that only meaningfully diverged from their neighbors within the last half-century, and which divergence springs entirely from their consistent unwillingness to pursue peace with Israel
    So even if Israel had the intent to commit genocide--which, unfortunately[1], they don't--the Arabs in Gaza don't qualify as a distinct group that can be subjected to genocide.
    If Colombia had decided to annihilate the FARC, just kill them all--would that have qualified as a genocide, too? It seems to me they meet at least as many tests for nationhood.
    [1]: See also: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49912637">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49912637
    latexr · 1790680063 · focus · HN ↗
    I will add as a comment—because I can no longer edit the post—that it’s also bonkers how much the upvotes and downvotes are fluctuating on this. I couldn’t care less about the points, but the threshold for a downvote is higher than an upvote so it does show a certain tendency, and it’s disgusting that such a large part of this community values nitpicking of words over empathy and human lives.
    Not that that was in question. HN is, after all, in too large a part a reflection of the greedy US tech industry. It has shown time and again that it’s selfishly OK with human exploitation and supremely susceptible to being manipulated by the right amount of technicality while simultaneously arrogantly believing it is immune to being influenced.
    Some days I’m truly ashamed of this community and find myself incapable of defending it against the mockery and contempt it receives from the rest of the internet.
    hiddencost · 1790675554 · focus · HN ↗
    Bruh it's literally text book.
    skybrian · 1790678185 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    MiroslavPokorny · 1790671385 · focus · HN ↗
    Its called something like collective punishment, something that many cultures practiced around the world.
    engine_y · 1790674384 · focus · HN ↗
    have you seen the extent of tunnels that were there?
    pjc50 · 1790674676 · focus · HN ↗
    No, have you? Is there any independent confirmation of their existence?
    21asdffdsa12 · 1790675571 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes, hamas posted about it?
    hdgvhicv · 1790678322 · focus · HN ↗
    Personally I haven’t. I know my office is gone. I know the hotel I used to stay in (always fun to wake up seeing a gunboat a couple of miles off shore pointing at you out the window) has gone.
    My colleagues have seen these tunnels. At least ore 2023. Israel has denied them entry since then.
    engine_y · 1790687596 · focus · HN ↗
    Tons of pictures and videos were published by both sides.
    ragazzina · 1790677052 · focus · HN ↗
    What do you think of the cultures that practiced it?
    MiroslavPokorny · 1790720212 · focus · HN ↗
    Dont harm the messenger, im just telling you the fact of past humanity.
    newsclues · 1790680958 · focus · HN ↗
    Collective punishment like launching rockets at civilian cities indiscriminately? Collective punishment like kidnapping civilians from music festivals?
    estearum · 1790681181 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes exactly like that.
    "We're no worse than Hamas!" is an interesting argument.
    newsclues · 1790681356 · focus · HN ↗
    So if two sides are doing the same things in an existential struggle, how can you say one sides tactics are deplorable and wrong?
    estearum · 1790681838 · focus · HN ↗
    Because I can say that both sides are deplorable and wrong? In fact, I can even say they're both deplorable and wrong in uneven amounts, but that both meet the bar of "deplorable and wrong."
    You think you have to choose a side between the Sinaloa Cartel and the Jalisco New Generation Cartel? You think you need to send one of them money?
    tt24 · 1790684317 · focus · HN ↗
    So if we stopped sending money to Israel you’d stop talking about Israel and Gaza forever?
    This idea that people only care about Israel because we support them with our tax dollars is such a joke
    estearum · 1790686688 · focus · HN ↗
    Well I care about it principally because of the degree to which it distorts our politics. The funding is one cause and effect of that distortion but there are others. For example the theological allegiance between US evangelicals and Zionists is a shockingly powerful force.
    But yes the component that morally implicates me personally is the funding.
    expedition32 · 1790682635 · focus · HN ↗
    What if... wait for it... They are both wrong?
    Israel is the great betrayal. In 1948 it was supposed to become a secular country based on European values not a Jewish theocracy. It is dragging us down and for what?
    conception · 1790685580 · focus · HN ↗
    The power imbalance allows one side to exhibit restraint and use more civilized options. These aren’t actors on the same footing. It’s a nuclear power with a multi billion dollar military against some of the poorest people on the planet.
    enaaem · 1790684214 · focus · HN ↗
    Those cultures sound like savages to me
    ascorbic · 1790687560 · focus · HN ↗
    Which is a war crime
    MiroslavPokorny · 1790901366 · focus · HN ↗
    Agreed, im simply telling you why its done.
    JumpCrisscross · 1790673037 · focus · HN ↗
    > How does bulldozing a family home have any affect on a tunnel?
    The tunnel entrances and exits are tremendously hard to find. Some of them were located in private residences.
    But Israel has an oil & gas industry. They have equipment that can look underneath a quiet city. If tunnel elimination were truly the goal, temporarily displacing the population while clearing operations took place should have been sufficient. As it stands, simply bulldozing over the entrances probably doesn't actually destroy the tunnels. It just hides their entrances.
    21asdffdsa12 · 1790675542 · focus · HN ↗
    The problem is that the homes are booby trapped. US would not send soldiers into iraq towns too- one trap - one ambush, and its artillery o clock.
    JumpCrisscross · 1790677030 · focus · HN ↗
    > the homes are booby trapped
    Robots. These things can be cleared. Particularly if the population isn't there.
    mschuster91 · 1790681657 · focus · HN ↗
    > These things can be cleared. Particularly if the population isn't there.
    Not if the trigger is based on detecting body heat. And you can't really clear more than the ground floor either, we don't have bipedal robots yet.
    throwaway173738 · 1790683157 · focus · HN ↗
    There are wheelchairs that can climb stairs. This is a solved problem if you want it to be.
    mschuster91 · 1790695051 · focus · HN ↗
    These things are gimmicks. They work in stairs constructed by code, but are not usable in warzones both in terms of resiliency and speed.
    [deleted] · 1790683490 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    a_paddy · 1790705770 · focus · HN ↗
    How advanced do you think Hamas are? One of their main weapons is the Qassam rocket, a dug up sewer pipe filled with sugar.
    mschuster91 · 1790748503 · focus · HN ↗
    Heat trigger sensors can be had for a few dollars in China these days. As long as you got a decent electrical engineer and a supply chain... you can probably whip up a working prototype in a day or two.
    a_paddy · 1790769960 · focus · HN ↗
    You're right, that's totally doable. However supply chains to that Gaza aren't exactly robust, they can barely get enough food to survive. It's unlikely an AliExpress package full of PIR sensors is going to make it's way through the blockade.
    mschuster91 · 1790786846 · focus · HN ↗
    > However supply chains to that Gaza aren't exactly robust, they can barely get enough food to survive.
    Yeah, but guns absolutely can. Iran is pretty good at supplying Hamas with everything they need to maintain control over the population - you might expect that after three years of absolutely brutal warfare Hamas would be beaten into submission, but clearly they are not.
    wongarsu · 1790681714 · focus · HN ↗
    That's kind of what they did. Just in the most heavy-handed indiscriminate way imaginable. But the booby-traps are cleared, and they did use teleoperated robots to do that
    datsci_est_2015 · 1790686440 · focus · HN ↗
    Furthermore, in a way that’s conveniently equivalent to ethnically cleansing the land.
    YZF · 1790714160 · focus · HN ↗
    Ethnic cleansing and property damage are not the same thing. The claim of ethnic cleansing can't be determined now. I would say with almost complete certainty that Gazans will eventually be allowed to return to a rebuilt Rafah. There is no evidence right now the displacement is permanent. Israel says it will not withdraw until Hamas disarms is where things stand now. So it is saying it will withdraw when Hamas disarms.
    To be clear. There are cases where civilian property damage is a war crime. And we do need to evaluate that. But ethnic cleansing is something else. If there are good military reasons to destroy said property then it's also not a war crime.
    Daishiman · 1790742412 · focus · HN ↗
    > The claim of ethnic cleansing can't be determined now.
    When the members of the biggest coalition in the Knesset say openly and proudly that they are doing ethnic cleansing what exactly are you pretending to defend?
    > There is no evidence right now the displacement is permanent.
    All of the allies of Likud and the settler movement wants Palestinians expelled.
    > Israel says it will not withdraw until Hamas disarms is where things stand now.
    They used to say they would withdraw when the hostages were returned. The goalposts were moved, as is typical.
    > But ethnic cleansing is something else. If there are good military reasons to destroy said property then it's also not a war crime.
    At this point there are literally hundreds of accounts of IDF members who were given told quite explicitly that it was an open field for killing with no consequences.
    kyboren · 1790797255 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    Daishiman · 1790822113 · focus · HN ↗
    > So they're all dead now? Ethnic cleansing complete?
    That's not an argument.
    > Wait, I thought they wanted them murdered in "an open field for killing with no consequences"?
    Who made that argument? They want to take the land and if means killing anyone in it so be it, although some sure do have murderous beliefs but that's besides the point.
    > Then why is it taking so long?
    Ben Gvir is on record as saying that it has to be such that the diplomatic consequences don't affect them. When they go too fast Western governments get public pressure, when it's slow nothing of importance happens.
    Do you really think about these responses when you asked or do you just make knee-jerk questions of the lowest caliber?
    kyboren · 1790824579 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    Daishiman · 1790829015 · focus · HN ↗
    > They've had the capability for decades. So why hasn't it happened?
    The same can be said for any conflict in which one side has overwhelming capacity and does not choose to engage on it for various reasons. But yes, diplomacy and public pressure actually matter a lot, as evidenced by the fact that Israel spends billions of dollars in state propaganda and funding political campaigns in the West to continue to receive military aid and avoiding sanctions.
    You are saying that Israel has shown itself to not be susceptible to international pressure on existential questions yet it engaged for decades in political and diplomatic action to be where it is today; it was not looked at that favorably by Western powers even a few decades backs. And it understands that apartheid South Africa was not on anyone's radar for decades until it was. AIPAC and other lobbying agencies fund hundreds of political campaigns in the US in order for this to happen.
    So yeah, if in five years' time the Democratic Socialists end up overtaking establishment DNC Zionists and get their share of power such that they allow BDS to work and stop military aid then Israel is going to have a much more difficult time, as evidenced by their desire to have the US engage Iran without them participating directly because they are not actually as powerful militarily as they project themselves to be.
    > Sure there might be sanctions, etc. but there will always be someone willing to work with them. And their foreign military sales make sanctions not exactly straightforward for e.g. Germany.
    That works until it doesn't, much like how China did not dominate on renewable energies until it did, or how proprietary Unix dominated the server market until Linux appeared. It takes remarkably little time to turn a country into a pariah state. For the past two decades Germany theorized that economic connections to Russia would prevent them from doing anything stupid regarding Ukraine.
    And Israel does not just have to care about external issues. Economic sanctions hit economies hard, and even a recession is enough to turn the tables against candidates during election years, so given that certain political parties are the ones who hold the cards at any time, they are not keen to lose elections.
    Also Israel depends very much on its network of high-tech companies, companies that are extremely sensitive to any sort of sanctions regime or any loss of trust such that no amount of lobby money suffices to get profitable military or high-tech companies.
    And once Israel is politically and militarily isolated it becomes a much easier target against rivals in the Middle East, so being politically associated with the West is very much a matter of survival. In this sense they have all the time in the world to perform their campaign of ethnic cleansing to restore Eretz Israel.
    None of what I'm saying is speculation, this is very much what political analysts in Israel say and have been saying for decades. The only difference is that now that liberal Zionism is dead and has been dead since the death of Itzak Rabin and the demographic explosion of the settler movement there's really no one to stop them from proceeding with these plans.
    manyaoman · 1790840916 · focus · HN ↗
    > The only difference is that now that liberal Zionism is dead and has been dead since the death of Itzak Rabin and the demographic explosion of the settler movement there's really no one to stop them from proceeding with these plans.
    Also it's a self-reinforcing cycle. The far right keeps testing what they can get away with, becoming increasingly emboldened. The leftists are packing up. Those in the middle see global backlash grow and realize there's no going back to pre-2023 world, so they might as well go all-in with the right. Israel is like a heroin addict using the very thing that's destroying them, in order to cope with the damage it already caused. Without intervention it generally doesn't end well.
    ImPostingOnHN · 1790887411 · focus · HN ↗
    > Ethnic cleansing complete?
    Are you seeing the same images we are in the article? Yes, the city has been ethnically cleaned.
    vigilantpuma · 1790747656 · focus · HN ↗
    Sorry, nearly the entire population of these cities has been displaced, their homes all destroyed (not “damaged” but basically completely razed) and you’re saying it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel says they will withdraw when Hamas disarms (e.g. when pigs fly)?
    Come on.
    estearum · 1790681135 · focus · HN ↗
    Can you link to any documented cases of the US leveling a city after encountering a trap or ambush?
    21asdffdsa12 · 1790683437 · focus · HN ↗
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Basra_(2003)" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Basra_(2003)
    themgt · 1790686013 · focus · HN ↗
    I was more opposed to the Iraq war than 99.9% of Americans, and this is just ahistorical bullshit.
    You can go look at Basra right here:
    <a href="https://www.google.com/maps/place/Basrah,+Basra+Governorate,+Iraq/@30.5132736,47.7806886,14224m/" rel="nofollow">https://www.google.com/maps/place/Basrah,+Basra+Governorate,...
    Over a million people live here. The estimate was that "448 to 593 civilians were killed due to coalition military operations", orders of magnitude less than Israel has killed. Basra was not wiped off the map or seized and annexed by coalition forces while the population was herded into a concentration camp.
    It is simply slander against the US military to suggest they have in the 21st century done anything like what the IDF has done in this genocide.
    myth_drannon · 1790685681 · focus · HN ↗
    Battle of Mosul
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mosul_(2016%E2%80%932017)" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mosul_(2016%E2%80%93...
    estearum · 1790694615 · focus · HN ↗
    Huh? The Battle of Mosul was notable for its extremely intense infantry combat.
    myth_drannon · 1790695085 · focus · HN ↗
    There were weeks of airstrikes by the coalition and then artillery barage("Down Barage"). Basically Mosul was leveled before a single soldier entered it.
    estearum · 1790696145 · focus · HN ↗
    Uhh... no.
    Here's historical satellite imagery. Go to 2017-08. You can see Mosul airport and surrounding facilities leveled, immediately adjacent to a city that is obviously a city and not 1) flattened Mosul airport or 2) similar in any way to the Rafah imagery above.
    <a href="https://livingatlas.arcgis.com/wayback/#mapCenter=43.12003%2C36.32159%2C16&mode=explore&active=15084" rel="nofollow">https://livingatlas.arcgis.com/wayback/#mapCenter=43.12003%2...
    myth_drannon · 1790696620 · focus · HN ↗
    here are better ones, with clear complete devastation of large parts of the city:
    NYT - <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/07/15/world/middleeast/mosul-before-after.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/07/15/world/middlee...
    and AP drone imagry <a href="https://apimagesblog.com/blog/2017/7/14/mosul-drone-footage-destruction" rel="nofollow">https://apimagesblog.com/blog/2017/7/14/mosul-drone-footage-...
    estearum · 1790697909 · focus · HN ↗
    This is a good rebuttal to the claim that no part of Mosul was struck hard or leveled. But nobody claimed that.
    From your linked AP article:
    "Nearly a third of the Old City [a specific neighborhood] was damaged or destroyed in the final three weeks of bombardment up to July 8, according to a survey by U.N. Habitat using satellite imagery"
    From MSF re Rafah:
    "Over 15 months of all-out war on Gaza have left 92 percent of housing units and about 70 percent of all structures destroyed or damaged."
    So we have 1/3rd of a particularly hard-hit neighborhood destroyed in Mosul versus 70% of the entire city of Rafah.
    <a href="https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/destruction-homes-leaves-palestinians-unable-safely-return-rafah" rel="nofollow">https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/destruction-hom...
    YZF · 1790713947 · focus · HN ↗
    You are comparing different things. You should be comparing the intensive part of the battle in both cases. Mosul vs. Rafah is a great comparison. The total number of civilians were similar. The number of combatants were similar. Rafah is a lot denser. Israel's war results in significantly less civilian casualties. The allies pounded Mosul with its civilian population with heavy bombardments. The criticism of Israel on this is orders of magnitude higher than any criticism levelled at the allies (well basically none). If you look at why did the allies go to war on ISIS there is nothing even borderline comparable to the Oct 7th attack on Israel from Gaza. Something to ponder.
    That Israel kept looking for tunnels and destroying empty buildings for strategic reasons after the battle was over and Rafah was mostly abandoned is not relevant to evaluating the main battle.
    That MSF statement is not specifically about Rafah in your link either. It's about the entire Gaza strip. And just like Rafah a lot of the destruction happened in evacuated areas for tactical reasons, searching for tunnels, preventing guerrilla attacks, dealing with booby traps etc. We can argue about the necessity and legality of those but they are a different kind of discussion vs. the main battle portion.
    estearum · 1790715357 · focus · HN ↗
    Gaza in total had a population of about 2 million people and about 70,000 casualties. Israel's own estimate in 2025 claimed 8,900 of those were combatants.
    Mosul had 1.5 million people at the time of the battle and ~10-20k civilian casualties + ~10-20k combatants.
    Hard to do direct comparisons and all the numbers are obviously squishy, but your claim that Israel's war results in significantly fewer casualties seems... dubious at best.
    And in any case, we actually know for a fact that Israel's non-combatant casualty cut-off value (NCV) -- i.e. their accepted rate in decision-making -- is several multiples higher than the coalition forces were.
    > Peter Gersten, former deputy commander of operations and intelligence for Combined Joint Task Force Operation Inherent Resolve, states that “[w]ith Osama Bin Laden, you’d have an NCV value of 30, but if you had a low-level commander, his NCV was typically zero. We ran zero for the longest time.” U.S. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin, when he was head of U.S. Central Command (CENTCOM) during the war against ISIS, would personally be called to authorize an operation with a “high” NCV of 14 or 15.
    Re the Jabalia Camp attack:
    > Satellite visual analysis of the attack site shows at least five large craters, including two approximately 40 feet wide, consistent with the impact of 2,000-pound Joint Direct Attack Munitions. The attack destroyed not just one residential apartment building, but a whole block.
    > Even without specific further intelligence, on the basis of this information Israel’s CDE must have resulted in a very high estimate for civilian casualties. Given the location, population spread, and choice of weapons, the actual toll of hundreds of civilians killed or wounded would have been a reasonable expectation.
    jibalt · 1790685455 · focus · HN ↗
    The problem is that it's genocide.
    Georgelemental · 1790685974 · focus · HN ↗
    Every single house in the entire city of Rafah was booby-trapped?
    TalkingCodeMonk · 1790687920 · focus · HN ↗
    "It's not a lie, if you believe it" — George Costanza
    WarmWash · 1790688394 · focus · HN ↗
    No, but how do you tell which ones are and which ones aren't?
    Like when packaged food gets potentially contaminated, you don't test each package for bacteria. You throw away the whole lot.
    Georgelemental · 1790689301 · focus · HN ↗
    You kidnap a civilian at gunpoint and force them to trigger the trap. It's called the "Mosquito Protocol", an IDF classic: <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2025-03-30/ty-article-opinion/.premium/in-gaza-almost-every-idf-platoon-keeps-a-human-shield-a-sub-army-of-palestinian-slaves/00000195-e627-deaf-a397-f6674e390000" rel="nofollow">https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2025-03-30/ty-article-opinio...
    Or, if you are not a genocidal terror group, you actually go house-to-house and check. Difficult, dangerous, but not a war crime. That's why Mosul isn't a pile of rubble, even though ISIS was more than willing to use booby traps!
    ---
    "We are demolishing more and more homes, they have nowhere to return. The only obvious result will be the desire of the Gazans to emigrate outside the Strip. Our main problem is in the receiving countries."
    —Benjamin Netanyahu, 2025
    <a href="https://www.maariv.co.il/news/military/article-1195594" rel="nofollow">https://www.maariv.co.il/news/military/article-1195594
    WarmWash · 1790700682 · focus · HN ↗
    Mosul doesn't have a massive network of underground tunnels that use civilian homes as entrances and exits.
    If Hamas cared about Palestinians, they could just use military buildings for that.
    janc_ · 1790733347 · focus · HN ↗
    Hamas doesn't care much about civilians, nobody says otherwise. But that's no legitimation for also murdering civilians.
    21asdffdsa12 · 1790846570 · focus · HN ↗
    Eh, that is exactly what ISIS did in Mosul
    manyaoman · 1790850285 · focus · HN ↗
    Did exactly what?
    21asdffdsa12 · 1790861867 · focus · HN ↗
    Dig tunnels and taking civilians hostage and used them as human shields. Nobody gave a fuck.
    manyaoman · 1790866079 · focus · HN ↗
    True. Hopefully one day brown people will be considered people too.
    hdhjsjja · 1790784420 · focus · HN ↗
    What other option was left for Israel. Muslims all over the world chanting "river to sea" Israel just trying to self preserve. It's better for the world to Jews to win rather than Muslims for obvious reasons
    21asdffdsa12 · 1790689580 · focus · HN ↗
    The problem with Ghaza is, that its the living proof that the peace process never could work. Charon returned it, des-ettlered it, the hippies moved near the border to help, they integrated them into the economy- only to get murdered on the 7th of october.
    Not even egypt allows ghazans in- 10.000 euros for one passport is insane. And all those walls and checkpoints. And egypt is pretty islamist itself, so natural ally to hamas and the like.. but they know had that brush with the mb
    Georgelemental · 1790689820 · focus · HN ↗
    You neglected to mention the decades-long blockade, or Netanyahu doing everything in his power to keep Hamas in charge. A true "peace process" has never been tried. (Well, except by Rabin, so of course they murdered him)
    <a href="https://original.antiwar.com/scott/2023/10/27/netanyahus-support-for-hamas-backfired-2/" rel="nofollow">https://original.antiwar.com/scott/2023/10/27/netanyahus-sup...
    janc_ · 1790732979 · focus · HN ↗
    Part of Hamas' militias fought alongside the Egyptian army against IS & AQ in Egypt, so that's not entirely true.
    What is true is that Egypt doesn't want to take in 2 million poor, underfed, sick, homeless Gazans & have to care for them.
    ImPostingOnHN · 1790689806 · focus · HN ↗
    > Like when packaged food gets potentially contaminated, you don't test each package for bacteria.
    You're comparing wiping out tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian people's lives... to disinfection.
    Like yeah, there's plenty of examples of israel's current leaders calling the Palestinian race sub-human, vermin, animal, saying it should be wiped off the earth, etc, but I didn't expect it on HN, JFC.
    WarmWash · 1790698638 · focus · HN ↗
    These homes being bulldozed are empty.
    ImPostingOnHN · 1790709752 · focus · HN ↗
    my dude, you just compared the ethnic cleansing of Palestine to getting rid of contaminating pathogens, and were called out on it, and you're gonna try to change the subject like you aren't walking around with freshly-crapped pants?
    why should anyone continue to discuss this topic with you, when you're basically just channeling german dictators at this point?
    WarmWash · 1790716928 · focus · HN ↗
    If you check the parent for this thread, the conversation is about Israel use of bulldozers to flatten Rafah, and the reason they do it is the same reason you toss any possible contaminated food. It's impractical to check a bunch of empty buildings for booby traps. Rafah was evacuated about a year and a half ago.
    Here is a link to the conversation topic to help clear your confusion:
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49890287#49898968">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49890287#49898968
    ImPostingOnHN · 1790725606 · focus · HN ↗
    Again, you're comparing the ethnic cleansing of an entire city to "tossing possibly contaminated food".
    Take a step back and see the echoes of your words in history.
    > It's impractical to check a bunch of empty buildings for booby traps
    That's life. That you might find it hard to achieve your military conquest without engaging in ethnic cleansing isn't a legal or moral excuse for perpetrating ethnic cleansing. Find a way that doesn't require ethnic cleansing or pick more realistic military objectives.
    > Rafah was evacuated about a year and a half ago.
    A forced expulsion of all existing inhabitants of a city without any right of return is commonly called "ethnic cleansing". So is razing the city. It's called that because it is cleansing the city of all people and/or traces of an ethnicity, like israel did here. Both constitute crimes against humanity, regardless of the excuse (the nazis had excuses for their similar crimes too, look how that went for them).
    21asdffdsa12 · 1790776239 · focus · HN ↗
    Man, i cant wait for qatar to run out of money and send these bots back to McDonalds.
    flyinglizard · 1790688408 · focus · HN ↗
    How do you know which ones are booby trapped?
    ImPostingOnHN · 1790693312 · focus · HN ↗
    They didn't claim to. They are responding to a claim that all the houses were demolished because they all contained booby traps, because "might contain booby traps" is obviously a legally and morally insufficient justification for demolishing every home in the city and cleansing it of the previous inhabitant race. Your home might contain booby traps, too.
    Gibbon1 · 1790677376 · focus · HN ↗
    There isn't any requirement at all to preserve civilian infrastructure being used to military purposes by the other side. If you are using it to hide a tunnel and booby trap it, the enemy can and in every case destroy it rather than risk their own troops.
    Take a look see of what's happening to peoples houses in Ukraine.
    abirch · 1790678182 · focus · HN ↗
    It’s frustrating when people use civilians as pawns.
    jibalt · 1790685555 · focus · HN ↗
    It's frustrating when people rationalize genocide.
    Gibbon1 · 1790705771 · focus · HN ↗
    It's demoralizing when people idolize Hamas committing crimes against humanity and starting wars.
    jibalt · 1790754038 · focus · HN ↗
    > It's demoralizing when people idolize Hamas committing crimes against humanity and starting wars.
    It's sickening when people blatantly lie like that ... especially in the service of rationalizing genocide.
    Gibbon1 · 1790974862 · focus · HN ↗
    What sicking is people like you throwing the word genocide around not because you have any argument that supports that but because it justifies what you've already decided you want to do to Jews.
    jibalt · 1790977014 · focus · HN ↗
    Every expert on genocide says it's a genocide, so claiming that I'm throwing it around with no argument is a lie ... in the service of genocide. And I'm Jewish ... there's nothing that I want to "do to Jews", but I would like the state of Israel to stop committing genocide. The fact is that the people who respond the way Gibbon responded hate Palestinians ... it's about what they want to do to them.
    IX-103 · 1790681216 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    erkt · 1790688774 · focus · HN ↗
    The words you are looking for are combatants. How does bulldozing a combatants home have any affect on a tunnel? Because it destroys the entrance to the tunnel. There are no innocents in Gaza.
    erxam · 1790695369 · focus · HN ↗
    > There are no innocents in Gaza.
    This is true. Their crime is not having been born a Jew. According to the Torah, the Talmud and the Talakha, shkotzim and shiksim like us must be slaughtered as is the right and the duty of the Chosen Ones to honor G-d.
    vigilantpuma · 1790747875 · focus · HN ↗
    “ There are no innocents in Gaza.” funny, this is exactly what people said to defend what Hamas did on October 7th.
    The babies and young children in Gaza are as innocent as they are everywhere else in the world. If you can’t see that, you should reexamine the lens you use to look at the world, it’s distorting things massively.
  2. 4gotunameagain · 1790668528 · focus · HN ↗
    An alternative to levelling entire cities to the ground to find tunnels, would be to stop the expanding of the settlers, stop the apartheid within Israel, stop the blockade and starving on Gaza, and try to actually foster peace instead of constant conflict, pain and misery in order to retain power.
    This is despicable, inhumane. It is generational trauma that started with the Nazis, now propagated to the poor souls around the new western colony of Israel.
    cess11 · 1790671185 · focus · HN ↗
    No, it predates the nazis. Zionist terrorism and genocidal actions in Palestine started earlier.
    [deleted] · 1790678592 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    usumgallu · 1790682626 · focus · HN ↗
    Indeed. I'll never forget setting out to find out the origins of terrorism thinking it was Iranian, and finding out it was mostly British and Zionist... and I worked in anti-terrorism and hadn't been taught much of that history...
    fangspire · 1790674177 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    jameshilliard · 1790724575 · focus · HN ↗
    > An alternative to levelling entire cities to the ground to find tunnels, would be to stop the expanding of the settlers, stop the apartheid within Israel, stop the blockade and starving on Gaza, and try to actually foster peace instead of constant conflict, pain and misery in order to retain power.
    Israel left Gaza back in 2005 after forcibly expelling all Jews and only later on only blockaded Gaza due to weapons being smuggled in, so they tried that and it clearly didn't work. It seems unilateral disengagement is simply not a strategy that can be succesful here.
    4gotunameagain · 1790748497 · focus · HN ↗
    This is such a spin. A 20 year blockade (and allowing Qatar to fund Hamas) leading to the Oct. 7 attack - the justification - for the ongoing atrocities, framed as "unilateral disengagement" that was not successful. Therefore it is the Palestinian's at fault.
    It is clear that Israel is the source of violence. Which makes sense, as it is a new Western colony occupying (and constantly expanding) land where people lived for thousands of years, under the justification THAT IT'S IN THE BIBLE.
    A religious fundamentalist colony, funded and armed by the west.
    It is unjustifiable. It is vile.
    rantoniol · 1790751808 · focus · HN ↗
    > A 20 year blockade (and allowing Qatar to fund Hamas)
    The blockade only started after Hamas was elected into power, to reduce their access to more missiles and weapons. The money from Qatar was still allowed in for humanitarian reasons. But no matter what Israel does it is accused of being evil - both allowing the money through and blocking it would be considered wrong by the haters.
    > a new Western colony occupying (and constantly expanding) land
    The total land under control by Israel has shrunk by more than 50% over the past 50 years (with the return of Sinai to Egypt in exchange for peace).
    Millions of Arabs have migrated to the West, but only when Jews migrate East are they “vile colonizers”.
    4gotunameagain · 1790761819 · focus · HN ↗
    > The blockade only started after Hamas was elected into power
    Israel has been restricting Gaza's economic viability since the 90s, much before the official blockade.
    > The money from Qatar was still allowed in for humanitarian reasons
    Is this a joke ? The humanitarian Israel that does not let international flotillas with aid reach Gaza ? Or the humanitarian Israel that kills children ?
    > The total land under control by Israel has shrunk by more than 50% over the past 50 years
    The spin of the century. They gave back uninhabitable desert, while continuing expansion all over Palestine.
    > Millions of Arabs have migrated to the West, but only when Jews migrate East are they “vile colonizers”.
    Firstly, it has nothing to do with religion. Secondly, migration is quite different than a formation of a military state that constantly occupies land and expands, attacking its neighbours that has been there for millennia.
    You are spewing propaganda.
    rantoniol · 1790764278 · focus · HN ↗
    > Is this a joke ?
    Israel is currently allowing in thousands of truckloads carrying 35,000 metric tons of aid per month, according to the UN: <a href="https://www.un.org/unispal/document/ocha-newsitem-7aug26/" rel="nofollow">https://www.un.org/unispal/document/ocha-newsitem-7aug26/
    What they blocked was a sailboat carrying a bag of oranges and anti-Israel activists trying to carry out a media stunt for attention and virtue-signalling.
    You obviously have an agenda here and are being disingenuous. I will disengage and leave you spewing your lies.
    [deleted] · 1790766746 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    4gotunameagain · 1790766920 · focus · HN ↗
    35000 tons of aid, 60% percent of it food. So.. 10kg of food per person, per month.
    How noble and humanitarian of the state of Israel.
    Please do disengage, you refuted none of my statements while continuing to spread propaganda from your 3 hour old account.
    jameshilliard · 1790799200 · focus · HN ↗
    > 35000 tons of aid, 60% percent of it food. So.. 10kg of food per person, per month.
    That's for UN 2720 Mechanism aid AFAIU, for totals I think you need to look at COGAT data which shows much higher numbers for total food aid.
    4gotunameagain · 1790857852 · focus · HN ↗
    COGAT is an Israeli military unit.
    Trusting their statements is like trusting the statements of the Nazis during the previous genocide.
    jameshilliard · 1790874649 · focus · HN ↗
    > COGAT is an Israeli military unit.
    That doesn't mean the data is unreliable.
    > Trusting their statements is like trusting the statements of the Nazis during the previous genocide.
    Comparing Israeli's to Nazi's is a common antisemitic trope.
    manyaoman · 1790880704 · focus · HN ↗
    > Comparing Israeli's to Nazi's is a common antisemitic trope.
    That doesn't mean the comparison is inaccurate.
    dang · 1790900525 · focus · HN ↗
    We've banned this account because it has been using HN exclusively for political/national/etc. battle for many months. That's not allowed here, regardless of what you're for or against.
    If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html">https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
    4gotunameagain · 1790956762 · focus · HN ↗
    What about that jameshilliard guy that has tens of flagged dead comments about Israel ?
    jameshilliard · 1790967590 · focus · HN ↗
    > What about that jameshilliard guy that has tens of flagged dead comments about Israel ?
    I think overall most of my comments are positive. Some people seem to flag comments as a way of disagreeing I guess.
    > Since 2024, 99% of his comments are political and about Israel.
    I don't think that's really an accurate characterization, it's certainly not 99%, are comments correcting factual inaccuracies/misinformation in threads related to Israel considered political just because the surrounding topic is politically contentious?
    Most of my comments on threads involving Israel are me just correcting some of the more obvious misinformation/conspiracy theories and/or trying to provide more factual background context/nuance to the discussions. I try not to push a specific political agenda/ideology for the most part. It's not like I'm trying to start political/ideological discussions either, there just seems to be more factual misinformation around topics involving Israel and that happens to be something where I know a lot of the history.
    dang · 1790977414 · focus · HN ↗
    I don't feel comfortable with "what about that X guy" responses to moderation comments, but in fairness the GP has a point: your account has overwhelmingly been posting in political flamewars for quite some time, and that's not allowed here.
    I had to go back 79 days and what felt like hundreds of posts to find any exception (something about heat pumps I think!), but then scrolling further back just led through reams more of the same. That means your account is definitely on the wrong side of the "primarily" test (<a href="https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=primarily%20test%20by:dang" rel="nofollow">https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...)
    To say that you're simply correcting inaccuracies and misinformation doesn't really work because the question of what counts as accurate vs. misinformation is hotly disputed. It is basically the entirety of the battle.
    On the other hand, your comments have mostly (though not entirely) been avoiding the more degraded forms of guidelines breakage that people resort to in these threads - things like snark, name-calling, and from there into personal attacks, slurs, and so on. That's good, but it's not enough—if you want to keep posting on HN we need you not to use the site primarily for political battle (broadly construed).
    [editing - bear with me...]
    jameshilliard · 1790987490 · focus · HN ↗
    > I had to go back 79 days and what felt like hundreds of posts to find any exception (something about heat pumps I think!), but then scrolling further back just led through reams more of the same.
    I went and checked myself and it's not exactly quite that bad, I quite regularly comment on posts unrelated to Israel/politics, these are comments of mine newer than 79 days that seem entirely unrelated for example: 7 days ago: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49846584">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49846584 19 days ago: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49687187">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49687187 28 days ago: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49569325">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49569325 52 days ago: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49252558">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49252558 59 days ago: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49163184">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49163184 59 days ago: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49163014">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49163014 79 days ago(the supposedly non-political one you found about heat pumps is quite ironically titled "The politics of air conditioning in Switzerland"): <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48915330">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48915330
    > To say that you're simply correcting inaccuracies and misinformation doesn't really work because the question of what counts as accurate vs. misinformation is hotly disputed. It is basically the entirety of the battle.
    I think it's more complex than that, for example in this thread I was pointing out that one shouldn't use UN aid delivery data to justify that sufficient aid is reaching Gaza, because UN aid data doesn't support that conclusion by itself, I then pointed out what data does support the conclusion that sufficient aid is being delivered. So I think there are cases where it's entirely possible to correct misinformation without even challenging the conclusion.:
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49879645#49906915">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49879645#49906915
    > On the other hand, your comments have mostly (though not entirely) been avoiding the more degraded forms of guidelines breakage that people resort to in these threads - things like snark, name-calling, and from there into personal attacks, slurs, and so on.
    Yeah, I try and avoid that in general.
    > That's good, but it's not enough—if you want to keep posting on HN we need you not to use the site primarily for political battle (broadly construed).
    I guess the main issue is that I tend to get more replies to my comments in Israel related threads and I get drawn in responding back if I think there's more to be said on the topic, most of my Israel related comments(in terms of absolute numbers) seem be from these super deep back and forth threads and not top level comments.
    4gotunameagain · 1791010142 · focus · HN ↗
    This is definitely a double standard.
    If you looked at the comments of the banned account that were older than a year ago, they were not political.
    While jameshilliard has hundreds of comments almost entirely on the topic for the past two years, with a huge number of them flagged/dead.
    It is clear to see what is going on.
    dang · 1791051547 · focus · HN ↗
    Ok, if I look back far enough then indeed there are comments like <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43934794">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43934794 which match your description, so I take your point and have unbanned that account.
    manyaoman · 1791063745 · focus · HN ↗
    Thank you for the unban! I'll behave.
    @4gotunameagain Really appreciate standing up for me, thanks.
    4gotunameagain · 1790956710 · focus · HN ↗
    > That doesn't mean the data is unreliable.
    No but it is like taking Russia's word for how many troops they lost.
    > Comparing Israeli's to Nazi's is a common antisemitic trope.
    How is comparing a state that is conducting a genocide to another group that did so too against the Jewish people ?
    jameshilliard · 1790963517 · focus · HN ↗
    > No but it is like taking Russia's word for how many troops they lost.
    Russia mostly just doesn't publish those figures at all last I checked. OSINT researchers however following the Russia/Ukraine war will typically use data from Russian, Ukrainian and independent sources where available however so it also wouldn't be advisable to completely ignore the Russian data either. Even extremely biased/limited data can sometimes be used to identify trends, at least for cases where the bias factor tends to be consistent.
    Israel also isn't a dictatorship and has what most would consider to be a relatively free press that is not afraid to criticize the government(i.e. Haaretz) so it would be rather difficult for Israel to deliberately publish outright fabricated data on a large scale without getting caught doing so.
    I'm also not saying you should blindly trust any specific sources, however much of the COGAT data can also be corroborated via independent sources such as satellite imagery.
    Keep in mind it's also not the case that the UN data meaningfully contradicts the COGAT data either, it's entirely possible for both to be reasonably accurate. In general I would say both COGAT and UN data are both likely reasonably accurate once factoring in the published limitations on that data.
    The reason the numbers are different is simply because they are measuring different things. In the case of COGAT they generally measure total aid going through border crossings while the UN measures aid reaching only a subset of distributions points within Gaza.
    So if you want to estimate per capita food aid going into Gaza you would want to use the COGAT figures since that data is collected at all border crossings and can be used to get a rough per capita figure on aid entering Gaza. On the other hand if you want to measure something like aid reaching UN system aid distribution points within Gaza then you would want to use the UN data.
    Attempting to use UN data to calculate per capita food aid going into Gaza would clearly be wrong as the UN's own published data collection methodology clearly shows they are not measuring total aid entering Gaza.
    The UN often seems to publish reports analyzing their own data while clearly failing factor in their own published data limitations into their calculations which results in inaccurate conclusions in their analysis. Usually these sort of analysis mistakes are very obvious as the UN generally publishes the math behind their calculations.
    You shouldn't blindly discard data simply because you think the source might be biased in one direction, rather you should try to understand the limitations of the data and corroborate it against secondary sources where possibly while also trying to factor in bias where feasible.
    Essentially it's not the raw data where there is disagreement, it's the various interpretations of what the data actually means.
    > How is comparing a state that is conducting a genocide to another group that did so too against the Jewish people ?
    A war is not the same thing as a genocide. The Jews did not start a war with the Nazi's. Hamas started a war with Israel with openly genocidal goals, Hamas simply did not have the military capability to accomplish their genocidal goals.
    manyaoman · 1790768430 · focus · HN ↗
    It's okay to have an agenda, just be honest about it please. Anti-Zionists tend to be pretty open about their agenda: opposing colonialism, ethno-states, genocide etc. It's telling that modern Zionists often seem less willing to express theirs.
    grewady · 1790773816 · focus · HN ↗
    You don’t call it colonialism when it’s Muslims migrating en masse to Europe, you don’t oppose ethno-states when they are Arab states that have cleansed all their Jews, and you don’t give a shit about actual genocides.
    4gotunameagain · 1790775486 · focus · HN ↗
    We don't call migration colonialism indeed, that's because they are fundamentally different concepts.
    And guess what ? Someone can be both against unconstrained migration, colonialism, zionism and apartheid states.
    Weak hasbara, try with a new throwaway account
    manyaoman · 1790776464 · focus · HN ↗
    > You don’t call it colonialism when it’s Muslims migrating en masse to Europe
    Mass migration generally does more harm than good and should be reserved for very exceptional cases like natural disasters.
    > you don’t oppose ethno-states when they are Arab states that have cleansed all their Jews
    Such as Saudi Arabia? Seeing it fall apart is my favorite thing about 2026 lmao.
    > and you don’t give a shit about actual genocides.
    I do but it makes sense to focus especially on the one being carried out with my tax money.
    jameshilliard · 1790799135 · focus · HN ↗
    > Israel is currently allowing in thousands of truckloads carrying 35,000 metric tons of aid per month, according to the UN: <a href="https://www.un.org/unispal/document/ocha-newsitem-7aug26/" rel="nofollow">https://www.un.org/unispal/document/ocha-newsitem-7aug26/
    You have to be very careful when looking at this sort of data, from my understanding UN data only tracks UN 2720 Mechanism aid deliveries. I think you need to look at COGAT data to see total aid deliveries as there are non-UN aid deliveries as well that won't show up in the UN data.
    4gotunameagain · 1790857741 · focus · HN ↗
    An Israeli military unit (COGAT) is not a trustworthy source of data for the aid they provide to an area they are actively blockading and starving.
    This is a genocide, and you are complicit through your online hasbara.
    jameshilliard · 1790874527 · focus · HN ↗
    > An Israeli military unit (COGAT) is not a trustworthy source of data for the aid they provide to an area they are actively blockading and starving.
    From my understanding no organization other than COGAT even has the ability to track the total aid deliveries, there is no evidence of mass starvation or that COGAT data is unreliable from what I've seen.
  3. myth_drannon · 1790686610 · focus · HN ↗
    Not only tunnels. Almost every house was rigged with explosives, like what happened in Gaza city, entire neighborhoods would explode once the troops arrive. If not rigged then it would be a stash of weapons somewhere in the house or under, you are not going to spend days on each house that is potentially rigged looking for a needle in a haystack. Unfortunately the worst for Gaza will come after the Israeli elections. Israel has 2 years of politically favorable US president to clear out Gaza City once and for all to correct the mistake of 2005 withdrawal.
    Ar-Curunir · 1790688576 · focus · HN ↗
    Begone foul genocide apologist.
5. pietervdvn · 1790679880 · focus · HN ↗
  This wasn't done with strikes, but with (remote controlled) bulldozers. <a href="https://idfclub.org/remote-controlled-warfare-how-israels-robotic-bulldozers-are-shaping-the-future-of-combat/" rel="nofollow">https://idfclub.org/remote-controlled-warfare-how-israels-ro...
  1. tyromaniac · 1790685407 · focus · HN ↗
    Wow. So the next Rachel Corinne will be killed by a robot.
6. mda · 1790684906 · focus · HN ↗
  Prolonged "surgical" strikes continued so long that there is almost nothing left to operate on I guess. And your justification is that some farms are not completely destroyed? What a disingenuous remark.
7. skinkestek · 1790686190 · focus · HN ↗
  [dead]
  1. Traster · 1790686536 · focus · HN ↗
    What is your expectation of how the civilian population of Gaza are meant to live after this? You can repeat your propaganda all you like, but what is the actual outcome you expect from this? In five years time, is this land occupied? By the same population that was displaced, or by Israelis? Or by no one?
    skinkestek · 1790935520 · focus · HN ↗
    The ideal situation would be something like after WW2:
    - large international combined army occupies the entirety of Gaza
    - every hamas official gets arrested
    - trials in Hague (or somewhere else) where we separate between who was just party members, who tried to reduce the evil and who were the masterminds behind the worst parts of it. Some go free, some get a few years and some get life without parole
    - international military administration until they are ready for normal elections. In Germany that took 9 years
    - lots and lots and lots of campaigns to make them understand that they are not the victims (Germans also thought they were the victims until 1945 and beyond and it took effort to fix that)
    - keep a close eye on them for the next 50 - 60 years
    Will it happen?
    Of course not. But it would be the absolute best outcome for civilians on Gaza.
    Why won't it happen? Because half of the world think that the Gazans are the victims because more Gazans have died than Israelis lately. Imagine if we taught WW2 that way: "Germans were mostly innocent victims, over 350 000 absolutely innocent Germans died vs under 10 000 US civilians, wHiCh mEaNs WW2 wAs a aCsHuAlLy a gEn0cIdE aGa1nSt tHe GeRmAn pEoPlE".
  2. Georgelemental · 1790687344 · focus · HN ↗
    Ukraine looks nothing like this
    skinkestek · 1790935827 · focus · HN ↗
    Tell me you know nothing about the war in Ukraine without telling me?
    Please look up Mariupol, Bakhmut, Avdiivka, Soledar, Toretsk, Vugledar and Volnovakha. Those are just from Donetsk oblast.
    And if you go beyond just the buildings it gets a lot uglier.
  3. estearum · 1790694439 · focus · HN ↗
    After the Allies flattened Nazi Germany (and Japan), civilized peoples looked at what they had done and said "wow we need to agree that this never happens again."
    It's always funny hearing these defenses of Israel or Hamas which resolve to "hey what can you expect, they have the moral intuitions of cavepeople!"
    skinkestek · 1790935991 · focus · HN ↗
    Well, now we have let it happen again, the facists of Gaza has attacked israel for 20 years while we looked the other way and finally, after their old provocations (or should I just write terrorist attacks?) stopped working (after Iron Dome and better border controls) they did the the unspeakable things in 2023.
    So the question is now: will we let it continue?
    estearum · 1790942385 · focus · HN ↗
    I don't think equating the Jews of 1920s/30s Europe to the modern state of Israel is making the argument you want to make.
    estearum · 1790943004 · focus · HN ↗
    When was the "looking the other way" happening?
    The region has been locked in tit-for-tat since (at least) Israel broke the initial colonial independence process.
    There was never any intention whatsoever from the Israeli side to live in peace with its neighbors. I'm not sure it's incumbent upon the existing residents of an area to welcome someone who quite clearly intends to take all of your land.
    Ben-Gurion wrote this to his son a year before Israel was created:
    > A Jewish state in part of Palestine is not an end, but a beginning... We shall bring into the state all the Jews it is possible to bring... then we shall expand to the whole country... We will break through the borders imposed on us...
    Note that he refers to this being a state created in Palestine. He refers to bringing people from elsewhere into this state.
    No symapthy from me. Both sides are sufficiently horrible and indefensible to be simply horrible and indefensible.
    skinkestek · 1791020239 · focus · HN ↗
    > When was the "looking the other way" happening?
    Maybe you didn't.
    Just point me to a few points in the past where you have been trying to get attention to how hamas has been shelling civilian areas in Israel, or where you have tried bring attention to Gazans abusing the ambulances (that had free pass through the border) to smuggle in explosives to bomb buses or cafes.
    Or maybe you were one of the very few who were outraged when Palestinian Arabs celebrated in March 2011, when Hakim Awad and Amjad Awad infiltrated the West Bank settlement of Itamar and murdered five members of the Fogel family in their home, including a mother, father, and three children (aged 11, 4, and an infant)?
    Or any of many other times they slit the throat of an elderly unarmed person, bashed in the head of a toddler, stabbed a mother in front of her kids?
    Or maybe you have expressed your outrage to the 9 major bomb attacks between 2006 (when Israel left Gaza) and 2022? Or the hundreds of smaller attacks using "only" pipe bombs?
    But most of the worlds was busily looking the other way.
    And I have a sneaking suspicion you absolutely were not aware of this.
    > There was never any intention whatsoever from the Israeli side to live in peace with its neighbors. I'm not sure it's incumbent upon the existing residents of an area to welcome someone who quite clearly intends to take all of your land.
    Israel has traded land for peace every time they got a chance. Just ask Egypt.
    You can also check with Syria who got offered the Golan heights back but refused because there was one clause: Syria would have to agree to a peace deal.
    > A Jewish state in part of Palestine is not an end, but a beginning... We shall bring into the state all the Jews it is possible to bring... then we shall expand to the whole country... We will break through the borders imposed on us...
    That was his opinion. Reading that quote and not checking what actually happened and also reading that quote without reading all the much worse quotes by Palestinian Arab (and other Arab) leaders is almost disingenious.
    > Note that he refers to this being a state created in Palestine.
    I don't dispute Palestine existing.
    That would be as stupid as denying Scandinavia.
    What I would like to point out though is that calling Palestinian Arabs "Palestinians" while calling Israelis "Jews" would be equally stupid to calling Swedes Scandinavians and Norwegians just Norwegians and argue that since Norway was once ruled by Sweden we don't really exist and must be expelled because "Scandinavia for Scandinavians".
    If you look you will find that until 1948 Palestinians meant everyone living in Palestine and until the 60ies and 70ies Palestinian Arabs often refused being called Palestinians as they saw themselves as south Syrians, Jordanians or just Arabs.
    Look closer at anything people present as proof of Palestine existing as a country and you find contradictions:
    Palestinian stamps have Hebrew (~ Israeli) text. Same goes for Palestinian coins.
    Palestinian passports has a field telling if it is a Druze, a Jew, a Muslim etc.
    Palestinian Airlines? Owned and operated by Jews.
    List goes on.
    > Both sides are sufficiently horrible and indefensible to be simply horrible and indefensible.
    One side celebrates murder and death, has death penalty, throws gays from rooftops, no womens rights.
    The other is a modern democracy where everyone has the same rights (ok, Israeli Arabs ("Israeli Palestinians") and Ultra Orthodox Jews both have the same extra right to only serve in the IDF if they want.)
    One side has systematically ethnically cleansed the other sides (no known Jews in Gaza, Christian population in Bethlehem down by 66%) while the other side has a large Arab minority well represented at every level of the legal system and in the parliament.
    But sure, both sides are equally bad, right?
    estearum · 1791031422 · focus · HN ↗
    You should consider reading the words in front of you instead of responding to imaginary points.
    I’m not sure which part of Ben-Gurion’s strategy and the Zionist mission overall you think is disproven by “they’ve exchanged land for peace.” Obviously the Arabs have also conceded land for peace many many times, and that doesn’t disprove their desire for Israel’s eventual dissolution.
    The question is whether they intend and continue to work toward taking over the entire region. Ben-Gurion’s own letter discusses that there will be setbacks and periods of reverse progress and so on. I’m sure Arab leaders have their followers similar assurances any time they gave up land for peace.
    It’s strange to dismiss the literal founder of Israel’s opinion and declared strategy as “just an opinion” as if it’s some guy on Reddit.
    Can you link me to any quotes from Arab leaders where they discuss putting a country on top of another person’s country and gradually expanding it? I am genuinely curious, though I can tell you upfront my reaction will be the same: that person is a piece of shit and their project is morally flawed.
    Can you say the same of Ben-Gurion and his project? I suspect you are the one with the double standard here. But find me some analogous quotes first and we can test the theory.
    Not sure what the relevance of your entire Scandinavia/Palestine/Jew sidebar is. Feel free to clarify if you’d like a direct response to it. It seems like you’re providing evidence that Palestine was in fact a state (with passports) that included Jews, Arabs, and more. Which obviously emphasizes the evil in Ben-Gurion’s desire to make the entire area a wholly Jewish state, doesn’t it?
    And finally back to the point of actually reading the words in front of you: can you tell me where I said they are equally bad? You cannot, because I didn’t say that. I said they are both sufficiently bad to be unworthy of my respect and support.
    You don’t need to support the Sinaloa Cartel in their rivalry with Jalisco New Generation Cartel just because Sinaloa is less bad than CJNG. I don’t need to support Israel just because Hamas is a bunch of murderous cavemen.
    Since you believe that it’s some moral failure not to pick a side in the Hamas/Israel situation, I implore you to pick a side and begin sending checks (since taxes won’t get directed there) to your preferred cartel. If you’re unwilling to do that, you are probably racist and you clearly have been brainwashed by the racist conspiracy against [Sinaloans or Jaliscoans].
    Let me know which side you’ve issued your check to.
8. [deleted] · 1790690234 · focus · HN ↗
  [deleted]
9. jameshilliard · 1790719132 · focus · HN ↗
  [dead]
10. kyboren · 1790791947 · focus · HN ↗
  You say civilian dwellings, I say fighting positions. You see the same sort of thing in any urban combat zone.
  How many apartment buildings are left standing in Bakhmut?

Open on Hacker News to reply ↗

Unofficial Hacker News client; not affiliated with Y Combinator.