Thread

Updated Google Maps shows destruction of the city of Rafah

943 points · 947 comments · slowin

bognition · 1790616426 · focus · HN ↗
Its really telling to see the destruction limited to where the structures used to be rather than to all of the surrounding green spaces. If the destruction of civilian dwellings was purely an accident you'd expect to see the destruction spread evenly over the area. Instead it looks much more like a prolonged set of surgical strikes to destroy the buildings while preserving as much of the surrounding areas as possible.
For a great example of this, look at this pin <a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZcMbdFcx87PrqoYNA" rel="nofollow">https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZcMbdFcx87PrqoYNA
And here's a pin of where the farms were spared <a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/iZbbTH4iH27FCz4s9" rel="nofollow">https://maps.app.goo.gl/iZbbTH4iH27FCz4s9
1. biimugan · 1790619643 · focus · HN ↗
  I don't quite understand your argument here. In your first pin I'm struggling to find a single building that isn't leveled, or at least severely damaged. Even buildings far away from the city center in the boonies are leveled.
  1. cogman10 · 1790637175 · focus · HN ↗
    They are saying that this is genocidal destruction. In a war sometimes civilian infrastructure is hit as collateral. But here, all infrastructure is destroyed and it's clear this wasn't done by 1 or 2 errant bombs but rather because of direct targeting. It can't be argued to be an accident because in farmland you see no bombs which hit the farmland by mistake. In other-words, this is entirely purposeful.
    tgsovlerkhgsel · 1790657626 · focus · HN ↗
    Looks the same in Ukraine, and at least there it's most likely not primarily because Russians wanted flatten the city (I'm sure they'd have preferred taking it in one piece) but rather because fighting happens from buildings resulting in the buildings getting targeted.
    Doesn't mean that here the targeting couldn't have been done with the primary goal of displacing the population, but the buildings being destroyed doesn't prove the motive.
    kergonath · 1790671561 · focus · HN ↗
    > Looks the same in Ukraine
    It does not.
    > and at least there it's most likely not primarily because Russians wanted flatten the city (I'm sure they'd have preferred taking it in one piece) but rather because fighting happens from buildings resulting in the buildings getting targeted.
    What happened on the Ukrainian frontlines is a war of position. Everything gets pounded, even forests and tree lines. It’s more like Verdun than anything that happened in Gaza.
    JumpCrisscross · 1790673200 · focus · HN ↗
    > It does not
    In absolutely does [1].
    > What happened on the Ukrainian frontlines is a war of position
    If Gaza is a genocide then Ukraine almost certainly is too. The same messaging about exterminating a culture that doesn't "actually" exist from senior leadership. The same attacks on children. The same destruction and systematic razing of civilian settlements.
    [1] <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ySLyCjNnrI" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ySLyCjNnrI
    cassepipe · 1790680031 · focus · HN ↗
    It can be (and is imho) true that both Russia and Israel have broadcasted genocidal intent with the consequences being war crimes and still not look identical
    It seems like the state of Ukraine frontline cities is due to intense artillery fire and air bombingn whereas gaza cities states seem to be more of systematic bulldozing of entire areas which would erase the marks of actual bombings and make the scale harder to assess
    cpursley · 1790680945 · focus · HN ↗
    So explain all these videos then, AI perhaps? Those aren't really locals who have returned, but actors?:
    <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@MariupolVideo/videos" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/@MariupolVideo/videos
    kergonath · 1790689402 · focus · HN ↗
    > If Gaza is a genocide then Ukraine almost certainly is too.
    Both are the results of aggressive madmen, but both situations are different. And the genocide aspect is not what is discussed here.
    Also, why do you think that “Russia is doing the same thing” is some kind of gotcha?
    jameshilliard · 1790717549 · focus · HN ↗
    > Both are the results of aggressive madmen, but both situations are different.
    Are the madmen you're referring to Putin and Sinwar?
    21asdffdsa12 · 1790676089 · focus · HN ↗
    Well, it happened in germany with the hitleryouth and volksturm.
    newsclues · 1790680572 · focus · HN ↗
    The same thing happens in Ukraine in the urban front lines. Villages get erased with artillery and bombs, as basements are the best place to survive drones and fires from artillery and bombs.
    Systematic destruction of urban areas is sadly what modern urban combat operations look like.
    When an enemy digs in and choose to fight and die in an urban area, this is how war plays out.
    <a href="https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/10/28/how-russias-invasion-flattened-a-ukrainian-border-city/" rel="nofollow">https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/10/28/how-russias-invas...
    WAR IS HELL
    potatototoo99 · 1790685343 · focus · HN ↗
    Rafah was no village, with 250,000 to 280,000 people.
    newsclues · 1790697488 · focus · HN ↗
    Similar size to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol
    kergonath · 1790689351 · focus · HN ↗
    > The same thing happens in Ukraine in the urban front lines. Villages get erased with artillery and bombs, as basements are the best place to survive drones and fires from artillery and bombs.
    But that’s not what we see in Gaza. The parents specifically mentioned that only towns were leveled. The destroyed towns are not the only relevant aspect. The other one is that major damage happens only there. And of course it would, because the Israeli forces don’t want to sterilise the land; they want to take it. In contrast, Russia is happy to be king of the rubble as long as Ukrainians eat shells.
    newsclues · 1790697262 · focus · HN ↗
    If your enemy is dug in in an urban area, you bomb the hell out of it before you send in infantry to clean up. If you don’t use artillery and bombs the defenders will mow down the assault units.
    This is how urban war is played out between near peer armies.
    Think about this, I’m in a concrete bunker with a machine gun, do you want to charge the bunker and get shot, or do you want to call in an airstrike to destroy the bunker with the machine gun position? I know what I’d do
    mthoms · 1790702285 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]

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