Thread

Updated Google Maps shows destruction of the city of Rafah

943 points · 947 comments · slowin

bognition · 1790616426 · focus · HN ↗
Its really telling to see the destruction limited to where the structures used to be rather than to all of the surrounding green spaces. If the destruction of civilian dwellings was purely an accident you'd expect to see the destruction spread evenly over the area. Instead it looks much more like a prolonged set of surgical strikes to destroy the buildings while preserving as much of the surrounding areas as possible.
For a great example of this, look at this pin <a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZcMbdFcx87PrqoYNA" rel="nofollow">https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZcMbdFcx87PrqoYNA
And here's a pin of where the farms were spared <a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/iZbbTH4iH27FCz4s9" rel="nofollow">https://maps.app.goo.gl/iZbbTH4iH27FCz4s9
1. biimugan · 1790619643 · focus · HN ↗
  I don't quite understand your argument here. In your first pin I'm struggling to find a single building that isn't leveled, or at least severely damaged. Even buildings far away from the city center in the boonies are leveled.
  1. cogman10 · 1790637175 · focus · HN ↗
    They are saying that this is genocidal destruction. In a war sometimes civilian infrastructure is hit as collateral. But here, all infrastructure is destroyed and it's clear this wasn't done by 1 or 2 errant bombs but rather because of direct targeting. It can't be argued to be an accident because in farmland you see no bombs which hit the farmland by mistake. In other-words, this is entirely purposeful.
    tgsovlerkhgsel · 1790657626 · focus · HN ↗
    Looks the same in Ukraine, and at least there it's most likely not primarily because Russians wanted flatten the city (I'm sure they'd have preferred taking it in one piece) but rather because fighting happens from buildings resulting in the buildings getting targeted.
    Doesn't mean that here the targeting couldn't have been done with the primary goal of displacing the population, but the buildings being destroyed doesn't prove the motive.
    newspaper1 · 1790657998 · focus · HN ↗
    Does it look the same in the Ukraine? I haven’t seen any footage of entire cities leveled like this.
    TiredOfLife · 1790659982 · focus · HN ↗
    <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-26/damage-data-reveals-extent-of-vicious-russian-tactics/101070918" rel="nofollow">https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-26/damage-data-reveals-e...
    <a href="https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/5/24/satellite-images-show-scale-of-destruction-in-bakhmut-ukraine" rel="nofollow">https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/5/24/satellite-...
    And that just from the start of war.
    megous · 1790667309 · focus · HN ↗
    Yeah, we can look at how Mariupol looks on satellite images. It looks nothing like Rafah. You have to be completely blind to not see the difference.
    cpursley · 1790670549 · focus · HN ↗
    In fact, Mariupol looks like this now and those are locals walking around: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@MariupolVideo/videos" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/@MariupolVideo/videos
    virgilp · 1790674857 · focus · HN ↗
    Here: <a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/TncezF72LxaWAKYY7" rel="nofollow">https://maps.app.goo.gl/TncezF72LxaWAKYY7
    brabel · 1790679871 · focus · HN ↗
    That’s Bahkmut which is still close to the frontline. They were talking about Mariupol which the Russians have actually rebuilt already, see here: <a href="https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mariupol,+Donetsk+Oblast,+Ukraine,+87500/@47.1012584,37.5358044,15z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x40e6e6a7bee7582b:0xa5d118300a75b5ce!8m2!3d47.097133!4d37.543367!16zL20vMDRmcHZz?utm_campaign=ml-le-16204869&g_ep=Eg1tbF8yMDI2MDkyMl8wIOC7DCoASAJQAg%3D%3D" rel="nofollow">https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mariupol,+Donetsk+Oblast,+...
    virgilp · 1790682071 · focus · HN ↗
    No, Mariupol was just one (arguably not the best) example answer to the original question, "Does it look the same in the Ukraine? I haven’t seen any footage of entire cities leveled like this."
    wongarsu · 1790682280 · focus · HN ↗
    "Russia is claiming it as theirs for the last four years and has largely rebuilt it" is not really counter-evidence to destruction during the fighting
    Mariupol probably did see less destruction. But for the actively contested regions, the biggest difference between Russian destruction and Israeli destruction is that the Russians use artillery, which leaves shells of buildings standing, while Israel uses bulldozers that are a lot more thorough in leaving no stone on the other
    someonebaggy · 1790716297 · focus · HN ↗
    Also the Palestinian buildings are practically made of cardboard because that's all the supplies they can get (because mysteriously supplies keep not arriving, oh well, no way to know why they don't)
    tgsovlerkhgsel · 1790707697 · focus · HN ↗
    <a href="https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mar'inka,+Donetsk+Oblast,+Ukraine/@47.9398557,37.5033743,1070m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x40e0a23e885a49c1:0x5db935ecafec4ca!8m2!3d47.9422861!4d37.5040301!16zL20vMGd0c19o" rel="nofollow">https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mar'inka,+Donetsk+Oblast,+...
    virgilp · 1790667257 · focus · HN ↗
    Seriouslly?
    You can find lots of videos of Russia firing thermobaric weapons into populated areas - you will find none fired by Israel into Gaza. And I don't think that's because IL doesn't have them.
    virgilp · 1790675182 · focus · HN ↗
    (i can't edit apparently): why the downvotes? Serious question I don't understand, is there anything I said above false? The parent comment is questioning whether RU cruelty in Ukraine is anything close to what IL did - and the answer is yes, it's actually much worse, especially when you factor in that it's completely unprovoked.
    brabel · 1790680044 · focus · HN ↗
    There is no way it’s worse. To be comparable the Russians would have to have flattened Kyiv and most other cities which is extremely far from reality. The cities being flattened are all in the frontline as there is no way to take a city by force without basically destroying every building.
    virgilp · 1790682294 · focus · HN ↗
    > The cities being flattened are all in the frontline as there is no way to take a city by force without basically destroying every building.
    It's exactly the same in Gaza! You basically justified Israel's actions here... Check the distance between Gaza City & Israel border, vs distance beetween Bakhmut & Russia's border. Tell me which one is farther away - I'll wait
    someonebaggy · 1790716350 · focus · HN ↗
    I wonder why Israel put the border there.
    close04 · 1790681287 · focus · HN ↗
    The destruction in Ukraine is mostly focused on the front line. Gaza was treated as a front line almost in its entirety, with almost no place to hide.
    virgilp · 1790682997 · focus · HN ↗
    Entire Gaza is frontline. It's 365 square kilometers - a lot smaller that UKR frontline. It's barely the size of Mariupol (which according to UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights report [1] had 90% of high-rise buildings destroyed or heavily damaged; and 60% of private houses. But if you know anything about former communist countries - in cities like Mariupol, most people lived in high-rise buildings). Now, bear in mind that according to the discussion we have here, a lot of people seem to believe that Mariupol got off easily and the destruction it suffered doesn't even compare to destruction in Bakhmut, Avdiivka, Vuhledar etc
    [1]<a href="https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/countries/ua/2022-06-29/2022-06-UkraineArmedAttack-EN.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/countrie...
    close04 · 1790694592 · focus · HN ↗
    That's exactly why Gaza took it far worse than anything Russia can do in Ukraine. Gaza is shooting fish in a barrel and Israel fishes with dynamite and white phosphorus in that barrel. The Gaza war is about sterilizing that land of all its people, who I'm told aren't even considered people. Even Russia didn't go that far.
    virgilp · 1790700566 · focus · HN ↗
    > who I'm told aren't even considered people
    EXACTLY. You are told.
    If that was really the goal, I go back to my previous point - wouldn't thermobaric bombs be faster, more economic & more convenient? It just makes no logical sense. If you already declared them to be monsters, what exactly is holding them back?
    close04 · 1790751045 · focus · HN ↗
    It was a figure of speech. I'm told with evidence.
    virgilp · 1790864629 · focus · HN ↗
    Care to share the evidence?
    close04 · 1790949696 · focus · HN ↗
    You know how you don't convince a flat earther with evidence? You're not looking to be convinced, you just want to prove you're smarter than everyone else. You'll always have some silly vague argument that you can hang on to for dear life and pretend that invalidates the other person's case. I don't have time for pointless exercises you need as validation. :)
    virgilp · 1791112756 · focus · HN ↗
    All I see is that you're likely just ashamed to show out how weak your so-called "evidence" is, and instead chose to go on "you wouldn't believe it anyway" route. Yeah, if I won't believe it then it's probably due to the fact you yourself already know it's flimsy.
    westpfelia · 1790676206 · focus · HN ↗
    To busy using white phosphorous on kids.
    virgilp · 1790678993 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    cassepipe · 1790680399 · focus · HN ↗
    I think your distinction is a valid one, Israel has some war crimes going on whereas russian invasion of Ukraine was a war crime festival but you are fighting an uphill battle because trying to make distinctions in levels of evil is generally frowned upon because to many people it looks like justification. The reason is because most people can't imagine any other value to making distinctions in evil. I personally can but each time you are going to do it, you should be prepared to defend why, in fact, making those distinctions is useful while being clear that the purpose is not justification of evil acts. It's a thin line to walk on.
    virgilp · 1790683953 · focus · HN ↗
    There are a bunch of people here who _genuinely_ do not comprehend that Russia is on a completely different league of evilness compared to Israel (and may even consider Israel worse!). This, while Russia is literally the source/engine of a significant part of all the evil in this world - and I wish I was hyperbolic when saying that. FWIW, that's exactly their doctrine, that "everybody is bad, so why bother to make the distinction, it's not like the others are good". And that's exactly how you end up in other countries too with genuinely evil rulers like some of those we see today.
    Anyway. Rant over, otherwise I'll veer too much into politics :)
    westpfelia · 1790687019 · focus · HN ↗
    744 ukranian children killed.
    <a href="https://gwaramedia.com/en/russia-has-killed-744-injured-almost-3000-ukrainian-children-since-full-scale-invasion-began/" rel="nofollow">https://gwaramedia.com/en/russia-has-killed-744-injured-almo...
    20000 palestianian children killed
    <a href="https://theconversation.com/a-un-report-details-the-overwhelming-scale-of-children-killed-in-gaza-it-raises-grave-legal-questions-286327" rel="nofollow">https://theconversation.com/a-un-report-details-the-overwhel...
    more then 20 times the children killed in half time time.
    virgilp · 1790691723 · focus · HN ↗
    Only children matter? But, fine. How many were kidnapped? At least IDF can claim that they didn't intentionally target children - with kidnapping, that's harder. And the discrepancy in numbers can also be caused by how much Ukraine vs Hamas care about said children / how much they are put in harm's way.
    someonebaggy · 1790697371 · focus · HN ↗
    What do you call aiming a sniper rifle at a child, centering her in the scope, accounting for drop, and then pulling the trigger? Seems pretty intentional to me, but maybe the sniper's finger slipped and did all that by accident?
    virgilp · 1790700304 · focus · HN ↗
    you believe those were sniper kills? :o Where did you get that from, the Hamas "x-rays" where bullets conveniently lodged inside a child cranium instead of shattering the surrounding bones?
    janc_ · 1790736337 · focus · HN ↗
    There are enough Israeli videos, texts, interviews & testimonies about IDF soldiers intentionally targetting children & bragging about it. No need to depend on Hamas communications.
    cassepipe · 1790760669 · focus · HN ↗
    I call it a awful thing to do.
    I don't know what you are referring to. I suppose yet another war crime from the israeli army but this conflict generates a lot of dis/misinformation and it's hard enough to assess the trustworthiness of a source. If you don't even care to provide any source, you are just venting
    It's not because you are angry about the state of the world that it absolves you of the moral duty to engage usefully with others. I know I have changed my mind on some subjects but it was never with one lazy comment like this one.
    Now why is what you are talking about worse than aiming deliberately a supermarket full of civilians with a missile or hunting a grandpa with a fpv drone ? I don't really understand why you would choose to draw a line there. We already have a internationally recognized line in the sand that is somewhat actionable: War crime. It's hard to argue for genocide, it's easier to denounce and investigate suspected war crimes.
    I, for one, think all war crimes are bad and should be the line in the sand where international pressure should be at its maximum.
    Gaza invasion is a counterinsurgency type of war in an tighlty urbanized environment where the invader has apparently quite limited care about human life. It is not really surprising that more children would be killed there. Those are two different wars with war crimes happening in both.
    cassepipe · 1790680923 · focus · HN ↗
    Well, Russia's use of white phosphorous during the invasion and ensuing occupation of Ukraine is well documented
    MiroslavPokorny · 1790671471 · focus · HN ↗
    Many of the towns along the front with Russia are also wastelands. Nearly every single building from homes, to schools, to shops are rubble.
    newsclues · 1790680640 · focus · HN ↗
    <a href="https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/10/28/how-russias-invasion-flattened-a-ukrainian-border-city/" rel="nofollow">https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/10/28/how-russias-invas...
    megous · 1790667199 · focus · HN ↗
    It does not look the same, at all.
    chewchewchew · 1790680404 · focus · HN ↗
    Cities in the heat of the conflict (i.e boots on the ground) sure do look like that
    kergonath · 1790671561 · focus · HN ↗
    > Looks the same in Ukraine
    It does not.
    > and at least there it's most likely not primarily because Russians wanted flatten the city (I'm sure they'd have preferred taking it in one piece) but rather because fighting happens from buildings resulting in the buildings getting targeted.
    What happened on the Ukrainian frontlines is a war of position. Everything gets pounded, even forests and tree lines. It’s more like Verdun than anything that happened in Gaza.
    JumpCrisscross · 1790673200 · focus · HN ↗
    > It does not
    In absolutely does [1].
    > What happened on the Ukrainian frontlines is a war of position
    If Gaza is a genocide then Ukraine almost certainly is too. The same messaging about exterminating a culture that doesn't "actually" exist from senior leadership. The same attacks on children. The same destruction and systematic razing of civilian settlements.
    [1] <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ySLyCjNnrI" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ySLyCjNnrI
    cassepipe · 1790680031 · focus · HN ↗
    It can be (and is imho) true that both Russia and Israel have broadcasted genocidal intent with the consequences being war crimes and still not look identical
    It seems like the state of Ukraine frontline cities is due to intense artillery fire and air bombingn whereas gaza cities states seem to be more of systematic bulldozing of entire areas which would erase the marks of actual bombings and make the scale harder to assess
    cpursley · 1790680945 · focus · HN ↗
    So explain all these videos then, AI perhaps? Those aren't really locals who have returned, but actors?:
    <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@MariupolVideo/videos" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/@MariupolVideo/videos
    kergonath · 1790689402 · focus · HN ↗
    > If Gaza is a genocide then Ukraine almost certainly is too.
    Both are the results of aggressive madmen, but both situations are different. And the genocide aspect is not what is discussed here.
    Also, why do you think that “Russia is doing the same thing” is some kind of gotcha?
    jameshilliard · 1790717549 · focus · HN ↗
    > Both are the results of aggressive madmen, but both situations are different.
    Are the madmen you're referring to Putin and Sinwar?
    21asdffdsa12 · 1790676089 · focus · HN ↗
    Well, it happened in germany with the hitleryouth and volksturm.
    newsclues · 1790680572 · focus · HN ↗
    The same thing happens in Ukraine in the urban front lines. Villages get erased with artillery and bombs, as basements are the best place to survive drones and fires from artillery and bombs.
    Systematic destruction of urban areas is sadly what modern urban combat operations look like.
    When an enemy digs in and choose to fight and die in an urban area, this is how war plays out.
    <a href="https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/10/28/how-russias-invasion-flattened-a-ukrainian-border-city/" rel="nofollow">https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/10/28/how-russias-invas...
    WAR IS HELL
    potatototoo99 · 1790685343 · focus · HN ↗
    Rafah was no village, with 250,000 to 280,000 people.
    newsclues · 1790697488 · focus · HN ↗
    Similar size to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol
    kergonath · 1790689351 · focus · HN ↗
    > The same thing happens in Ukraine in the urban front lines. Villages get erased with artillery and bombs, as basements are the best place to survive drones and fires from artillery and bombs.
    But that’s not what we see in Gaza. The parents specifically mentioned that only towns were leveled. The destroyed towns are not the only relevant aspect. The other one is that major damage happens only there. And of course it would, because the Israeli forces don’t want to sterilise the land; they want to take it. In contrast, Russia is happy to be king of the rubble as long as Ukrainians eat shells.
    newsclues · 1790697262 · focus · HN ↗
    If your enemy is dug in in an urban area, you bomb the hell out of it before you send in infantry to clean up. If you don’t use artillery and bombs the defenders will mow down the assault units.
    This is how urban war is played out between near peer armies.
    Think about this, I’m in a concrete bunker with a machine gun, do you want to charge the bunker and get shot, or do you want to call in an airstrike to destroy the bunker with the machine gun position? I know what I’d do
    mthoms · 1790702285 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    _DeadFred_ · 1790693020 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm sorry, Ukraine war discussion was labeled political on HN, not allowed, actively moderated and shutdown. Please don't post it here. Only Gaza/Israel get's a special carveout for these sorts of discussions on HN.

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