Thread

Updated Google Maps shows destruction of the city of Rafah

943 points · 947 comments · slowin

bognition · 1790616426 · focus · HN ↗
Its really telling to see the destruction limited to where the structures used to be rather than to all of the surrounding green spaces. If the destruction of civilian dwellings was purely an accident you'd expect to see the destruction spread evenly over the area. Instead it looks much more like a prolonged set of surgical strikes to destroy the buildings while preserving as much of the surrounding areas as possible.
For a great example of this, look at this pin <a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZcMbdFcx87PrqoYNA" rel="nofollow">https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZcMbdFcx87PrqoYNA
And here's a pin of where the farms were spared <a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/iZbbTH4iH27FCz4s9" rel="nofollow">https://maps.app.goo.gl/iZbbTH4iH27FCz4s9
1. skinkestek · 1790686190 · focus · HN ↗
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  1. Traster · 1790686536 · focus · HN ↗
    What is your expectation of how the civilian population of Gaza are meant to live after this? You can repeat your propaganda all you like, but what is the actual outcome you expect from this? In five years time, is this land occupied? By the same population that was displaced, or by Israelis? Or by no one?
    skinkestek · 1790935520 · focus · HN ↗
    The ideal situation would be something like after WW2:
    - large international combined army occupies the entirety of Gaza
    - every hamas official gets arrested
    - trials in Hague (or somewhere else) where we separate between who was just party members, who tried to reduce the evil and who were the masterminds behind the worst parts of it. Some go free, some get a few years and some get life without parole
    - international military administration until they are ready for normal elections. In Germany that took 9 years
    - lots and lots and lots of campaigns to make them understand that they are not the victims (Germans also thought they were the victims until 1945 and beyond and it took effort to fix that)
    - keep a close eye on them for the next 50 - 60 years
    Will it happen?
    Of course not. But it would be the absolute best outcome for civilians on Gaza.
    Why won't it happen? Because half of the world think that the Gazans are the victims because more Gazans have died than Israelis lately. Imagine if we taught WW2 that way: "Germans were mostly innocent victims, over 350 000 absolutely innocent Germans died vs under 10 000 US civilians, wHiCh mEaNs WW2 wAs a aCsHuAlLy a gEn0cIdE aGa1nSt tHe GeRmAn pEoPlE".
  2. Georgelemental · 1790687344 · focus · HN ↗
    Ukraine looks nothing like this
    skinkestek · 1790935827 · focus · HN ↗
    Tell me you know nothing about the war in Ukraine without telling me?
    Please look up Mariupol, Bakhmut, Avdiivka, Soledar, Toretsk, Vugledar and Volnovakha. Those are just from Donetsk oblast.
    And if you go beyond just the buildings it gets a lot uglier.
  3. estearum · 1790694439 · focus · HN ↗
    After the Allies flattened Nazi Germany (and Japan), civilized peoples looked at what they had done and said "wow we need to agree that this never happens again."
    It's always funny hearing these defenses of Israel or Hamas which resolve to "hey what can you expect, they have the moral intuitions of cavepeople!"
    skinkestek · 1790935991 · focus · HN ↗
    Well, now we have let it happen again, the facists of Gaza has attacked israel for 20 years while we looked the other way and finally, after their old provocations (or should I just write terrorist attacks?) stopped working (after Iron Dome and better border controls) they did the the unspeakable things in 2023.
    So the question is now: will we let it continue?
    estearum · 1790942385 · focus · HN ↗
    I don't think equating the Jews of 1920s/30s Europe to the modern state of Israel is making the argument you want to make.
    estearum · 1790943004 · focus · HN ↗
    When was the "looking the other way" happening?
    The region has been locked in tit-for-tat since (at least) Israel broke the initial colonial independence process.
    There was never any intention whatsoever from the Israeli side to live in peace with its neighbors. I'm not sure it's incumbent upon the existing residents of an area to welcome someone who quite clearly intends to take all of your land.
    Ben-Gurion wrote this to his son a year before Israel was created:
    > A Jewish state in part of Palestine is not an end, but a beginning... We shall bring into the state all the Jews it is possible to bring... then we shall expand to the whole country... We will break through the borders imposed on us...
    Note that he refers to this being a state created in Palestine. He refers to bringing people from elsewhere into this state.
    No symapthy from me. Both sides are sufficiently horrible and indefensible to be simply horrible and indefensible.
    skinkestek · 1791020239 · focus · HN ↗
    > When was the "looking the other way" happening?
    Maybe you didn't.
    Just point me to a few points in the past where you have been trying to get attention to how hamas has been shelling civilian areas in Israel, or where you have tried bring attention to Gazans abusing the ambulances (that had free pass through the border) to smuggle in explosives to bomb buses or cafes.
    Or maybe you were one of the very few who were outraged when Palestinian Arabs celebrated in March 2011, when Hakim Awad and Amjad Awad infiltrated the West Bank settlement of Itamar and murdered five members of the Fogel family in their home, including a mother, father, and three children (aged 11, 4, and an infant)?
    Or any of many other times they slit the throat of an elderly unarmed person, bashed in the head of a toddler, stabbed a mother in front of her kids?
    Or maybe you have expressed your outrage to the 9 major bomb attacks between 2006 (when Israel left Gaza) and 2022? Or the hundreds of smaller attacks using "only" pipe bombs?
    But most of the worlds was busily looking the other way.
    And I have a sneaking suspicion you absolutely were not aware of this.
    > There was never any intention whatsoever from the Israeli side to live in peace with its neighbors. I'm not sure it's incumbent upon the existing residents of an area to welcome someone who quite clearly intends to take all of your land.
    Israel has traded land for peace every time they got a chance. Just ask Egypt.
    You can also check with Syria who got offered the Golan heights back but refused because there was one clause: Syria would have to agree to a peace deal.
    > A Jewish state in part of Palestine is not an end, but a beginning... We shall bring into the state all the Jews it is possible to bring... then we shall expand to the whole country... We will break through the borders imposed on us...
    That was his opinion. Reading that quote and not checking what actually happened and also reading that quote without reading all the much worse quotes by Palestinian Arab (and other Arab) leaders is almost disingenious.
    > Note that he refers to this being a state created in Palestine.
    I don't dispute Palestine existing.
    That would be as stupid as denying Scandinavia.
    What I would like to point out though is that calling Palestinian Arabs "Palestinians" while calling Israelis "Jews" would be equally stupid to calling Swedes Scandinavians and Norwegians just Norwegians and argue that since Norway was once ruled by Sweden we don't really exist and must be expelled because "Scandinavia for Scandinavians".
    If you look you will find that until 1948 Palestinians meant everyone living in Palestine and until the 60ies and 70ies Palestinian Arabs often refused being called Palestinians as they saw themselves as south Syrians, Jordanians or just Arabs.
    Look closer at anything people present as proof of Palestine existing as a country and you find contradictions:
    Palestinian stamps have Hebrew (~ Israeli) text. Same goes for Palestinian coins.
    Palestinian passports has a field telling if it is a Druze, a Jew, a Muslim etc.
    Palestinian Airlines? Owned and operated by Jews.
    List goes on.
    > Both sides are sufficiently horrible and indefensible to be simply horrible and indefensible.
    One side celebrates murder and death, has death penalty, throws gays from rooftops, no womens rights.
    The other is a modern democracy where everyone has the same rights (ok, Israeli Arabs ("Israeli Palestinians") and Ultra Orthodox Jews both have the same extra right to only serve in the IDF if they want.)
    One side has systematically ethnically cleansed the other sides (no known Jews in Gaza, Christian population in Bethlehem down by 66%) while the other side has a large Arab minority well represented at every level of the legal system and in the parliament.
    But sure, both sides are equally bad, right?
    estearum · 1791031422 · focus · HN ↗
    You should consider reading the words in front of you instead of responding to imaginary points.
    I’m not sure which part of Ben-Gurion’s strategy and the Zionist mission overall you think is disproven by “they’ve exchanged land for peace.” Obviously the Arabs have also conceded land for peace many many times, and that doesn’t disprove their desire for Israel’s eventual dissolution.
    The question is whether they intend and continue to work toward taking over the entire region. Ben-Gurion’s own letter discusses that there will be setbacks and periods of reverse progress and so on. I’m sure Arab leaders have their followers similar assurances any time they gave up land for peace.
    It’s strange to dismiss the literal founder of Israel’s opinion and declared strategy as “just an opinion” as if it’s some guy on Reddit.
    Can you link me to any quotes from Arab leaders where they discuss putting a country on top of another person’s country and gradually expanding it? I am genuinely curious, though I can tell you upfront my reaction will be the same: that person is a piece of shit and their project is morally flawed.
    Can you say the same of Ben-Gurion and his project? I suspect you are the one with the double standard here. But find me some analogous quotes first and we can test the theory.
    Not sure what the relevance of your entire Scandinavia/Palestine/Jew sidebar is. Feel free to clarify if you’d like a direct response to it. It seems like you’re providing evidence that Palestine was in fact a state (with passports) that included Jews, Arabs, and more. Which obviously emphasizes the evil in Ben-Gurion’s desire to make the entire area a wholly Jewish state, doesn’t it?
    And finally back to the point of actually reading the words in front of you: can you tell me where I said they are equally bad? You cannot, because I didn’t say that. I said they are both sufficiently bad to be unworthy of my respect and support.
    You don’t need to support the Sinaloa Cartel in their rivalry with Jalisco New Generation Cartel just because Sinaloa is less bad than CJNG. I don’t need to support Israel just because Hamas is a bunch of murderous cavemen.
    Since you believe that it’s some moral failure not to pick a side in the Hamas/Israel situation, I implore you to pick a side and begin sending checks (since taxes won’t get directed there) to your preferred cartel. If you’re unwilling to do that, you are probably racist and you clearly have been brainwashed by the racist conspiracy against [Sinaloans or Jaliscoans].
    Let me know which side you’ve issued your check to.

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