Thread

Updated Google Maps shows destruction of the city of Rafah

943 points · 947 comments · slowin

bognition · 1790616426 · focus · HN ↗
Its really telling to see the destruction limited to where the structures used to be rather than to all of the surrounding green spaces. If the destruction of civilian dwellings was purely an accident you'd expect to see the destruction spread evenly over the area. Instead it looks much more like a prolonged set of surgical strikes to destroy the buildings while preserving as much of the surrounding areas as possible.
For a great example of this, look at this pin <a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZcMbdFcx87PrqoYNA" rel="nofollow">https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZcMbdFcx87PrqoYNA
And here's a pin of where the farms were spared <a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/iZbbTH4iH27FCz4s9" rel="nofollow">https://maps.app.goo.gl/iZbbTH4iH27FCz4s9
1. biimugan · 1790619643 · focus · HN ↗
  I don't quite understand your argument here. In your first pin I'm struggling to find a single building that isn't leveled, or at least severely damaged. Even buildings far away from the city center in the boonies are leveled.
  1. cogman10 · 1790637175 · focus · HN ↗
    They are saying that this is genocidal destruction. In a war sometimes civilian infrastructure is hit as collateral. But here, all infrastructure is destroyed and it's clear this wasn't done by 1 or 2 errant bombs but rather because of direct targeting. It can't be argued to be an accident because in farmland you see no bombs which hit the farmland by mistake. In other-words, this is entirely purposeful.
    rbanffy · 1790645192 · focus · HN ↗
    A war requires at least two militaries. This is what happens when a well armed military engages a mostly unarmed civilian society unable to mount significant opposition.
    pchristensen · 1790647534 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    torton · 1790649958 · focus · HN ↗
    "Before the October 7, 2023 attacks, the total size of Hamas’s military wing (the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades) was estimated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and intelligence agencies to be between 25,000 and 30,000 fighters, with some intelligence assessments placing the upper limit as high as 40,000. This army was organized into five regional brigades and 24 battalions."
    "Hamas's military force prior to October 7, 2023, was roughly 3 to 4.5 times larger than the United States military when measured as a percentage of their respective total populations."
    k4rli · 1790664120 · focus · HN ↗
    Source: the aggressors
    choo-t · 1790665445 · focus · HN ↗
    No link to a source ?
    Anyway, IDF as ≈170k active duty personnel and 465k reservists[1]. Literally a different order of magnitude. Add to it the vast different of resources, access to an air force and nuclear weapons and it become even more clearer that there is no comparison possible.
    (And comparing personnel count to the USA is laughable as it is vastly different military type. Both a fighter jet pilot and a foot soldier count as one personnel, but it's neither the same force projection nor the same investment of civilians working for the war machine).
    1: <a href="https://eu.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2023/10/14/idf-explainer-on-israeli-defense-forces-idf/71133855007/" rel="nofollow">https://eu.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2023/10/14/idf-explai...
    rbanffy · 1790671398 · focus · HN ↗
    You don't need to compare the military forces. You can compare the casualties on both sides or, for a different perspective, you might count the civilians killed inside their own territories (you might count the West Bank if you really want accurate numbers).
    Forced displacement is also considered a war crime and, considering what is happening in Gaza and at the West Bank, it would qualify as genocide as well.
    jayGlow · 1790677096 · focus · HN ↗
    comparing the casualties just shows that Hamas are incompetent not that they aren't trying.
    rbanffy · 1790679502 · focus · HN ↗
    I was hoping the numbers would make it obvious the reaction is disproportionate and careless with the lives of civilians.
    lukan · 1790689430 · focus · HN ↗
    Yeah, there even is this old archaic rule from the bible/torah/quran, "eye for an eye" that is usually considered barbaric and outdated. But here they go by 35:1 ratio.
    gegtik · 1790689578 · focus · HN ↗
    new Voight-Kampff test just dropped
    rbanffy · 1790692151 · focus · HN ↗
    I wish I could turn off empathy at my convenience.
    erkt · 1790689599 · focus · HN ↗
    They are not civilians.
    They launched a war against their neighbors, poorly.
    They hid the tunnels of their army, poorly.
    There is only one solution to the Gaza problem, no more Gaza.
    jibalt · 1790692341 · focus · HN ↗
    It is obvious, but it is also to be expected that a significant number of people here, as elsewhere, will rationalize genocide ... and the comment you responded to is particularly crude in its lack of humanity.
    jayGlow · 1790896386 · focus · HN ↗
    Hamas has launched 19,000 missiles at Israel should they just stop intercepting them to make the death toll more even? If someone refuses to stop attacking you what's the appropriate response do you just sit there while they try to kill you?
    <a href="https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/06/11/19000-rockets-launched-at-israel-since-hamass-october-7-atrocities/" rel="nofollow">https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/06/11/19000-rockets-launch...
    jayGlow · 1790896501 · focus · HN ↗
    Hamas has launched 10s of thousands of rockets and mortars at Israel what is an appropriate response for them? Should they just sit there letting someone try to kill them or should they retaliate? How many casualties is an acceptable amount?
    <a href="https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/06/11/19000-rockets-launched-at-israel-since-hamass-october-7-atrocities/" rel="nofollow">https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/06/11/19000-rockets-launch...
    newspaper1 · 1790898496 · focus · HN ↗
    What do they expect when they murder an entire country full of people and steal their land? Israel shouldn't exist, problem solved.
    jayGlow · 1790958063 · focus · HN ↗
    When did they murder an entire country? Last time I checked people still live in Palestine, in fact the population been steadily increasing over the past 40 or so years. Is your solution that the people of Israel should just die instead of fighting back?
    newspaper1 · 1790959079 · focus · HN ↗
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
    Every Israeli prime minister has been European. Every one. The answer is to return to their homeland and let the remaining Palestinians return to theirs.
    erkt · 1790689398 · focus · HN ↗
    Maybe they should be treated like the festival goers?
    mossTechnician · 1790692433 · focus · HN ↗
    The IDF has killed not just a higher number but also a higher percentage of civilians, and a much higher percentage of children, than the October 7 attacks[0]. Even if collective punishment was considered not cruel but moral by the larger community, Israel has far surpassed it.
    [0]: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war
    someonebaggy · 1790697149 · focus · HN ↗
    They would be better off if they were.
    hmijail · 1790772264 · focus · HN ↗
    That percentage comparison is fascinating. Say only 1 fighter remains in a tunnel when all the civilians have been finally bombed out and sniped off. By that measure that would mean Hamas is what, 50 times larger than the USA's military?
    bonesss · 1790664118 · focus · HN ↗
    There were a lot of arms used over the border on October 7th, more confiscated on video and being used on video against the IDF, and the constant stream of unguided rockets being shot at civilians year after year. Rockets are weapons.
    Hamas describes its fighters as their “military wing”. They engage in military training exercises and wear uniforms (when not fighting). That’s a military.
    While it may be dumb, gross, and a hate crime against their civilians: war was the exact and predicted outcome of the attacks Hamas launched. They made statements to that effect, kicking off a regional war was central to the plan on October the 7th.
    iririririr · 1790668058 · focus · HN ↗
    almost as if they didn't have the best interest of the civilians in mind uh
    rbanffy · 1790671530 · focus · HN ↗
    As Emiliano Zapata once said, "Better to die standing than to live on your knees".
    While I don't condone violence, it's a legitimate way to defend against occupation.
    someonebaggy · 1790678769 · focus · HN ↗
    This is actually codified in international law IIRC - a nation that's subject to some kind of apartheid occupation has literally unlimited rights to resist its occupiers.
    SiempreViernes · 1790681729 · focus · HN ↗
    While Hamas does have a right of armed struggle against the occupation, the taking of hostages and the killing of civilians are not permissible forms of resistance.
    That said, it is almost impossible to imagine that the Israeli response would have been something lesser than the current genocide attempt if Hamas had just taken POWs during the October 7 attack. Bibi would have arguably been even more humiliated if Hamas had been acting with restraint, so the impulse for revenge would be even greater.
    rhasimus · 1790682655 · focus · HN ↗
    Making up scenarios sure is fun. Let me try!
    It is almost impossible to imagine Israel would even look at the direction of Gaza had they just taken the statehood offers presented to them in 1947, 2000, 2001, or 2008, instead of repeatedly choosing terrorizing civilians over gasp compromising.
    someonebaggy · 1790684870 · focus · HN ↗
    What were the offers?
    ta8903 · 1790687846 · focus · HN ↗
    >It is almost impossible to imagine Israel would even look at the direction of Gaza had they just taken the statehood offers presented to them in 1947, 2000, 2001, or 2008
    It's very much possible to imagine that.
    someonebaggy · 1790697229 · focus · HN ↗
    Considering every single offer that was accepted by both sides was immediately violated by the Israeli side
    rhasimus · 1790716556 · focus · HN ↗
    Hey another flat out lie by the same user... "the Second Intifada began immediately after the collapse of major peace negotiations." You seem to be mixing up the aggressor with the Aggressé, seemingly intentionally, multiple times in a row.
    throwaway198846 · 1790686316 · focus · HN ↗
    This show how little you understand Israelis. First this isn't about Bibi, second ot wasn't humiliation but failure, third no atrocities on civilians would certainly changed the response - probably equivalent to a larger cast lead operation which also act as precedent of how Israel acted on the past.
    gosub100 · 1790691959 · focus · HN ↗
    Bibi was aware of the plans, and allowed the attack to manufacture support for the greater Israel project.
    rhasimus · 1790681959 · focus · HN ↗
    Why would one just plainly lie like that? (╭ರ_•́)
    According to International Humanitarian Law: Targeting, killing, or kidnapping civilians is strictly prohibited and constitutes a war crime, regardless of the legality of the underlying cause. Torture, hostage-taking, and executions of captured individuals are strictly forbidden under all circumstances.
    All of which are actions that were done by Hamas and Gazans who invaded on Oct 7th. A lot of which was recorded on video, by Hamas and Gazans.
    lukan · 1790689092 · focus · HN ↗
    Targeting military - yes, under certain conditions.
    Targeting civilian homes and a festival - nothing legitimate about that.
    erkt · 1790689077 · focus · HN ↗
    Then maybe the civilians should kill their Hamas neighbors, instead of cheering them in the streets and supporting the actions of Oct 7th…
    LorenPechtel · 1790697743 · focus · HN ↗
    Hamas chose this war, expecting the results they got.
    What you are missing here is that Hamas' primary weapon is parading dead Gazans in front of the camera.

Open on Hacker News to reply ↗

Unofficial Hacker News client; not affiliated with Y Combinator.