Thread

Updated Google Maps shows destruction of the city of Rafah

943 points · 947 comments · slowin

bognition · 1790616426 · focus · HN ↗
Its really telling to see the destruction limited to where the structures used to be rather than to all of the surrounding green spaces. If the destruction of civilian dwellings was purely an accident you'd expect to see the destruction spread evenly over the area. Instead it looks much more like a prolonged set of surgical strikes to destroy the buildings while preserving as much of the surrounding areas as possible.
For a great example of this, look at this pin <a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZcMbdFcx87PrqoYNA" rel="nofollow">https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZcMbdFcx87PrqoYNA
And here's a pin of where the farms were spared <a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/iZbbTH4iH27FCz4s9" rel="nofollow">https://maps.app.goo.gl/iZbbTH4iH27FCz4s9
1. YZF · 1790663982 · focus · HN ↗
  The buildings were levelled with bulldozers for the most part after the civilians left during combat operations against the tunnel infrastructure and any remaining combatants. Not sure what the "surgical strikes" comment is about. Are you asking why weren't open spaces destroyed or attacked?
  1. a_paddy · 1790665596 · focus · HN ↗
    How does bulldozing a family home have any affect on a tunnel?
    JumpCrisscross · 1790673037 · focus · HN ↗
    > How does bulldozing a family home have any affect on a tunnel?
    The tunnel entrances and exits are tremendously hard to find. Some of them were located in private residences.
    But Israel has an oil & gas industry. They have equipment that can look underneath a quiet city. If tunnel elimination were truly the goal, temporarily displacing the population while clearing operations took place should have been sufficient. As it stands, simply bulldozing over the entrances probably doesn't actually destroy the tunnels. It just hides their entrances.
    21asdffdsa12 · 1790675542 · focus · HN ↗
    The problem is that the homes are booby trapped. US would not send soldiers into iraq towns too- one trap - one ambush, and its artillery o clock.
    JumpCrisscross · 1790677030 · focus · HN ↗
    > the homes are booby trapped
    Robots. These things can be cleared. Particularly if the population isn't there.
    wongarsu · 1790681714 · focus · HN ↗
    That's kind of what they did. Just in the most heavy-handed indiscriminate way imaginable. But the booby-traps are cleared, and they did use teleoperated robots to do that
    datsci_est_2015 · 1790686440 · focus · HN ↗
    Furthermore, in a way that’s conveniently equivalent to ethnically cleansing the land.
    YZF · 1790714160 · focus · HN ↗
    Ethnic cleansing and property damage are not the same thing. The claim of ethnic cleansing can't be determined now. I would say with almost complete certainty that Gazans will eventually be allowed to return to a rebuilt Rafah. There is no evidence right now the displacement is permanent. Israel says it will not withdraw until Hamas disarms is where things stand now. So it is saying it will withdraw when Hamas disarms.
    To be clear. There are cases where civilian property damage is a war crime. And we do need to evaluate that. But ethnic cleansing is something else. If there are good military reasons to destroy said property then it's also not a war crime.
    Daishiman · 1790742412 · focus · HN ↗
    > The claim of ethnic cleansing can't be determined now.
    When the members of the biggest coalition in the Knesset say openly and proudly that they are doing ethnic cleansing what exactly are you pretending to defend?
    > There is no evidence right now the displacement is permanent.
    All of the allies of Likud and the settler movement wants Palestinians expelled.
    > Israel says it will not withdraw until Hamas disarms is where things stand now.
    They used to say they would withdraw when the hostages were returned. The goalposts were moved, as is typical.
    > But ethnic cleansing is something else. If there are good military reasons to destroy said property then it's also not a war crime.
    At this point there are literally hundreds of accounts of IDF members who were given told quite explicitly that it was an open field for killing with no consequences.
    kyboren · 1790797255 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    Daishiman · 1790822113 · focus · HN ↗
    > So they're all dead now? Ethnic cleansing complete?
    That's not an argument.
    > Wait, I thought they wanted them murdered in "an open field for killing with no consequences"?
    Who made that argument? They want to take the land and if means killing anyone in it so be it, although some sure do have murderous beliefs but that's besides the point.
    > Then why is it taking so long?
    Ben Gvir is on record as saying that it has to be such that the diplomatic consequences don't affect them. When they go too fast Western governments get public pressure, when it's slow nothing of importance happens.
    Do you really think about these responses when you asked or do you just make knee-jerk questions of the lowest caliber?
    kyboren · 1790824579 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    Daishiman · 1790829015 · focus · HN ↗
    > They've had the capability for decades. So why hasn't it happened?
    The same can be said for any conflict in which one side has overwhelming capacity and does not choose to engage on it for various reasons. But yes, diplomacy and public pressure actually matter a lot, as evidenced by the fact that Israel spends billions of dollars in state propaganda and funding political campaigns in the West to continue to receive military aid and avoiding sanctions.
    You are saying that Israel has shown itself to not be susceptible to international pressure on existential questions yet it engaged for decades in political and diplomatic action to be where it is today; it was not looked at that favorably by Western powers even a few decades backs. And it understands that apartheid South Africa was not on anyone's radar for decades until it was. AIPAC and other lobbying agencies fund hundreds of political campaigns in the US in order for this to happen.
    So yeah, if in five years' time the Democratic Socialists end up overtaking establishment DNC Zionists and get their share of power such that they allow BDS to work and stop military aid then Israel is going to have a much more difficult time, as evidenced by their desire to have the US engage Iran without them participating directly because they are not actually as powerful militarily as they project themselves to be.
    > Sure there might be sanctions, etc. but there will always be someone willing to work with them. And their foreign military sales make sanctions not exactly straightforward for e.g. Germany.
    That works until it doesn't, much like how China did not dominate on renewable energies until it did, or how proprietary Unix dominated the server market until Linux appeared. It takes remarkably little time to turn a country into a pariah state. For the past two decades Germany theorized that economic connections to Russia would prevent them from doing anything stupid regarding Ukraine.
    And Israel does not just have to care about external issues. Economic sanctions hit economies hard, and even a recession is enough to turn the tables against candidates during election years, so given that certain political parties are the ones who hold the cards at any time, they are not keen to lose elections.
    Also Israel depends very much on its network of high-tech companies, companies that are extremely sensitive to any sort of sanctions regime or any loss of trust such that no amount of lobby money suffices to get profitable military or high-tech companies.
    And once Israel is politically and militarily isolated it becomes a much easier target against rivals in the Middle East, so being politically associated with the West is very much a matter of survival. In this sense they have all the time in the world to perform their campaign of ethnic cleansing to restore Eretz Israel.
    None of what I'm saying is speculation, this is very much what political analysts in Israel say and have been saying for decades. The only difference is that now that liberal Zionism is dead and has been dead since the death of Itzak Rabin and the demographic explosion of the settler movement there's really no one to stop them from proceeding with these plans.
    manyaoman · 1790840916 · focus · HN ↗
    > The only difference is that now that liberal Zionism is dead and has been dead since the death of Itzak Rabin and the demographic explosion of the settler movement there's really no one to stop them from proceeding with these plans.
    Also it's a self-reinforcing cycle. The far right keeps testing what they can get away with, becoming increasingly emboldened. The leftists are packing up. Those in the middle see global backlash grow and realize there's no going back to pre-2023 world, so they might as well go all-in with the right. Israel is like a heroin addict using the very thing that's destroying them, in order to cope with the damage it already caused. Without intervention it generally doesn't end well.
    ImPostingOnHN · 1790887411 · focus · HN ↗
    > Ethnic cleansing complete?
    Are you seeing the same images we are in the article? Yes, the city has been ethnically cleaned.

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