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Japan moves to tighten rules for foreigners

206 points · 623 comments · mikhael

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happytoexplain · 1790448258 · focus · HN ↗
I acknowledge and sympathize with the pain this will cause, but in regards to Japan itself: Good for them. Not because it is a rightward shift, but because it is a shift toward pragmatism in the face of the inherent tension between respect for all people and respect for one's own people and culture.
In my humble opinion, an ideal world is a liberal one with cherry-picked, tightly controlled, practical conservative elements that boldly take on the intimidating job of maintaining the balance between love and reason.
1. greggoB · 1790448802 · focus · HN ↗
  I mean, sure, so long as they're willing to deal with the consequences of an aging population and a shrinking workforce.
  1. jfewhfuehg · 1790449440 · focus · HN ↗
    They can just outsource if they really need tech employees.
    anigbrowl · 1790471883 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
  2. llm_nerd · 1790449834 · focus · HN ↗
    > I mean, sure, so long as they're willing to deal with the consequences of an aging population and a shrinking workforce.
    They're pretty clearly aware of the dire fear-mongering, and chose their path accordingly. They decided to sidestep the pyramid scheme of perpetual growth.
    Here in Canada we've been pitched this same scary argument for decades, leading to outrageous levels of immigration, coupled with a growing entitlement among the class (which leads to a complete refusal to integrate in any meaningful way, often while incanting the laughable pablum about mosaic versus melting pot while dragging regressive, destructive habits and cultural norms to Canada, tragedy of the commons behaviour, etc).
    Somehow this mass immigration has made us older, and less competitive, moving in exactly the opposite direction of the magical solution it promised while giving away the country. It has led to massive lines for every job, downward pressure on wages, and oversubscribed services at every level.
    ---
    Every now and then there is a discussion about the difference between an "expat" and an "immigrant", but it really is important that people are honest about the difference, because it is very real, and it is informative to why the myth of immigration as a solution doesn't track with the reality that immigration is often massively destructive.
    An expat is usually some Westerner that moved to some random country for adventure, a change, whatever. Occasionally they send a postcard home and share videos from the beach. Whatever.
    An immigrant, on the other hand, is someone that moves to a country as a beachhead to drag their entire extended family there, often then expanding out from there. Which is precisely what many Western countries have seen where they bring in the "skilled worker", and then the skilled worker drags over their elderly parents, and also their "auntie" as a purported childcare giver, and then registers a business and sponsors their village through every loophole and circumvention, and then... This has destroyed the acceptance of immigration and completely obliterated the "oh you're getting older, something something labour shortage" nonsense.
    We need to move on from the mass immigration is the solution horseshit, because all it has done is led every developed country to lurch perilously to the right, giving an easy open for charlatans to take advantage of a real problem to push a lot of ancillary things as well.
    TMWNN · 1790460519 · focus · HN ↗
    >Somehow this mass immigration has made us older, and less competitive, moving in exactly the opposite direction of the magical solution it promised while giving away the country. It has led to massive lines for every job, downward pressure on wages, and oversubscribed services at every level.
    Context for others: Already much wealthier on a real GDP per-capita basis, the US increased its lead over Canada from 2000 to 2025 <<a href="https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1YbGu" rel="nofollow">https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1YbGu>. The US began the period 28.2% higher, and finished 49.5% higher. Note the lack of growth in the Canadian line that began c. 2015.
    Put another way, 100% of Canadian GDP growth since 2015 has been from population growth. Now that the latter has been significantly (not completely) cut back, the country is in a recession (which the bien-pensant media never fails to adding the word "technical" before saying so).
    >Here in Canada we've been pitched this same scary argument for decades, leading to outrageous levels of immigration, coupled with a growing entitlement among the class (which leads to a complete refusal to integrate in any meaningful way, often while incanting the laughable pablum about mosaic versus melting pot while dragging regressive, destructive habits and cultural norms to Canada, tragedy of the commons behaviour, etc).
    I firmly believe that if Trump announced that after annexation the US would deport every TFW/"student" that has arrived since 2015, public opinion would massively swing toward joining the US ASAP.
    didibus · 1790471325 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm not following your argument at all, if they had taken no immigrants, the GDP would just be even worse then, and Canada would be even further behind.
    It seems no Canadian-born has managed to produce efficiencies or innovations, and only increased labor workforce through immigration has allowed higher production of goods/services (to increase GDP). So wouldn't that mean Canada would have been way worse off without those immigrants?
    llm_nerd · 1790472643 · focus · HN ↗
    None of this happens in isolation. If you flood a country with a torrent of migrants, everything else just doesn't continue as is with that one thing happening on the side.
    For instance in Canada there was, and remains, a housing shortage. Suddenly a ridiculous amount of our economy turned to speculation on and leveraging of housing. Housing is multi-factorial and there are certainly other issues at play, but it was incredible during the height of outrageous migration when apologists would pretend this adding millions of new people that need to be housed in a short period of time was somehow not a factor (suddenly the demand in S&D didn't matter, because it was a protected topic).
    I know even in my neighbourhood migrant families that bought houses they could not possibly afford -- the space was endemic with astonishing levels of fraud, and you could just make up whatever imaginary income you want -- at grossly inflated prices, and the only way they could swing it is to then move a number of international "students" in their basement, the "students" then working full time at minimum wage and often below, etc. A race to the bottom. This sort of knock-on effect happened everywhere. Brampton is basically a giant tinderbox now because it was a city built on this sort of pyramid scheme/fraud nonsense.
    Investments all flooded to the same spaces[1]. Who wants to build a business or make a product when you can just make an international "college" or start another exploitative low value human trafficking operation to give points to desperate migrants looking to game the system.
    Every business in Canada was competing with race to the bottom "who can hire the most migrants, many who'll actually pay for the right to work" alternatives. Increasing efficiency, automation, etc -- none of it mattered at all, because it can't possibly compete with the place flooding with migrants who'll tolerate anything and accept close to nothing in return. While similar countries were increasing efficiencies, automating, and so on, we were moving to a human trafficking economy. This is true in Canada's agricultural industry where it's like the 1940s because farmers just got accustomed to massive numbers of migrants coming and doing manual labour.
    Now add that as the best of the best graduated from Canadian colleges and university, they could take a grossly underpaid job with a Canadian employer, where almost all of their coworkers will be "accept anything" migrants, and fight to pay a million dollars for some shoebox condo....or they could move elsewhere. A shocking number just decided to move elsewhere, primarily the US.
    This was hugely destructive to Canada. It was a massive mistake, and we have a lost decade to show for it.
    [1] So did government spending. Why do major projects, seek new export markets, etc, when you can announce GDP growth regardless, even if the GDP per capita was flat to declining. A decade when we did nothing but celebrate how wonderfully diverse and tolerant we are.
    TMWNN · 1790477124 · focus · HN ↗
    >A shocking number just decided to move elsewhere, primarily the US.
    85% of University of Waterloo software engineering graduates move to the US. <<a href="https://x.com/danluu/status/1351785083598893062" rel="nofollow">https://x.com/danluu/status/1351785083598893062>
    This is a longstanding trend, of course. One million people born in Canada <<a href="https://ourworldindata.org/where-do-migrants-live-and-where-were-they-born?migrationCountry=Canada" rel="nofollow">https://ourworldindata.org/where-do-migrants-live-and-where-...> live in the US, or about 2.4% of the 41.5 million total Canadians, while 260,000 people born in the United States <<a href="https://ourworldindata.org/where-do-migrants-live-and-where-were-they-born?migrationCountry=United+States" rel="nofollow">https://ourworldindata.org/where-do-migrants-live-and-where-...> live in Canada. The US's population of 338 million is eight times that of Canada's, so a Canadian is about 30 times more likely to move to the US, than an American is to move to Canada.
    1.3 million Canadian-born live outside Canada, or about 3% of the Canadian population. 3.2 million American-born live outside the US, 1% of the US population.
    DavCreator · 1790500049 · focus · HN ↗
    <a href="https://xxcancel.com/danluu/status/1351785083598893062" rel="nofollow">https://xxcancel.com/danluu/status/1351785083598893062
    didibus · 1790483613 · focus · HN ↗
    If I understand, GDP didn't grow nearly as fast as the population. The economy technically got bigger, but once you divided it across millions more people, GDP per capita shrank while living costs, especially housing, surged. Bigger pie, but even more people splitting it, so a smaller average slice.
    That seems to show in the data. Canada screwed this up and brought in way too many people, way too quickly, without anything close to the housing, infrastructure or investment needed to support it. Since the cuts started in 2024 and were pushed further by the new government, GDP per capita has started growing again and rents are cooling, which seems partially explained by those immigration cut backs.
    What I can't find in the data is evidence that this explains why Canada lagged behind countries like the US. Most of that gap seems to come from high-tech industries. Meaning Canada just doesn't invest in itself enough, and cheap migrant labour doesn't explain why it failed to build the industries that actually drove growth elsewhere.
    atom_arranger · 1790490054 · focus · HN ↗
    Per capita. GDP is not meaningful for the average person most of the time. Norway has a very high GDP per capita, but a lower GDP than Canada. Would it make life better for them if they suddenly had double the GDP and double the population? Probably not really, might be more crowded.
    Canadians might be able to produce more innovation if there wasn't so much inflation and tax burden due to high immigration.
    skeledrew · 1790462408 · focus · HN ↗
    > the skilled worker drags over their elderly parents, and also their "auntie" as a purported childcare giver, and then registers a business and sponsors their village through every loophole and circumvention
    It's a balancing at the regional/global level. People desire to move from worse situation to better, which leads to an averaging tendency of the source and destination. You don't like it because average means there's a little less per person where you are, since it's a destination. People at the source like the emigration because there's a little more per person (which hopefully isn't mostly absorbed by some "protective" group, like mafia, bad govt, etc). Let the balance happen; it leads to a better world overall.
    happytoexplain · 1790464424 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes, physically that's a good description of the natural flow of things. No, it makes no sense for successful nations to suffer for the benefit of unsuccessful nations, generally speaking. What they should provide is aid, with varying specifics on what that means (e.g. it could be as simple as favorable trade).
    To move everybody into the successful nations, rather than engage in the slow work of making all nations somewhat successful, is cruel and insane.
    skeledrew · 1790466794 · focus · HN ↗
    How are those nations suffering, when the reason that they're destinations is because they have a surplus of resources (I won't touch on the history that usually led to that surplus in the first place)? As long as a significant number of the immigrants aren't committing crimes and play by the rules the citizens go by to the best of their abilities, why is there an issue? Isn't the - ideal of the - "free market" supposed to be a thing all should aspire to?
    llm_nerd · 1790469734 · focus · HN ↗
    > I won't touch on the history that usually led to that surplus in the first place
    You literally just did, only in that comedically vapid hand-wavy, bullshit way that's so common.
    Germany got obliterated during two world wars and is a power house, again. Japan got nuked twice and is a powerhouse. China is now an absolute powerhouse. South Korea a powerhouse.
    It turns out that when you stop doing the "woe am I! white man stole all the good stuff...somehow" horseshit, you can actually improve your lot.
    Like if your country is a hyper-corrupt open-air garbage dump, maybe stop pointing at other countries as the cause and fix your own shit. And when enough people from that sort of culture -- and it is a culture, and culture can be judged, and some are simply garbage -- move to infinitely better countries, invariably they start dragging their busted, tragedy of the commons behaviours. They should be on the first mode of transport back.
    > why is there an issue?
    Because the myth of the advantage of immigration -- the thing that gets a population to tolerate it as a wonderful solution for everyone -- in no universe matches the reality. It's a lie, and it's why so many countries have taken a super-hard turn to the right. What should be a worthwhile program to bring skills and perspective instead turns into a flood where you end up with ghettos of the source country, with all the same problems. No thanks.
    Canada almost took a turn to the right, but the leading party actually made significant changes. Not nearly enough (the entire TFW program is just an enormous fraud, top to bottom, zero elderly relatives should ever come here, every non-citizen that commits even a minor crime should be ejected at first cause, the refugee program needs to have a 95%+ rejection rate, and so on). Canadians were done with the lie, so changes were made.
    Turns out we still have millions of people who need to leave the country.
    > Isn't the - ideal of the - "free market" supposed to be a thing all should aspire to?
    A free market is that there are a few countries that are extremely desirable, and a lot of, sorry to say, shitholes with garbage cultures. You should be extraordinary to have the privilege of moving to one of the better countries, and your behaviour when you get there had better be exemplary. Somehow we got in the situation where millions of dregs are flooding every Western country and recreating the shithole they left. In that case, shut it down, which again is happening everywhere.
    That is the free market. People were sold a lie, and they're turning against it.
    skeledrew · 1790522032 · focus · HN ↗
    So much vitriol.
    > Germany got obliterated [...]
    You're conveniently omitting the fact that they relied on massive external aid, security alliances, education expansion and more. China in particular rose up thanks to state-led industrial policies and having a heck of a lot of people to do stuff for cheap. And none of those countries were poached of their resources and their populations oppressed for decades/centuries.
    Also funny you say people should improve their lot, when that's exactly what they're trying to do... somewhere where there's actually decent opportunity to improve said lot since that's generally absent in a "hyper-corrupt open-air garbage dump" (shaped by a history of colonial poaching, proxy conflicts, etc; these are relevant facts that people like you try to sweep under the rug). The majority not looking for handouts; they looking to make a life for themselves and their family.
    > You should be extraordinary [...]
    Sorry to tell you that a genuinely free labour market means more mobility, not less. What you're describing is a highly regulated labour market with strong border controls. Get your definitions straight.
    And yes, if some individual/group commits crimes, then sure they should be sent back or jailed like any citizen. But if they're making a honest living and paying their social dues then leave them the hell alone, regardless of how they arrived in the first place.
    llm_nerd · 1790522519 · focus · HN ↗
    > So much vitriol.
    Basically none. You know this rhetoric doesn't work any more, right? Like you know it is played out, surely?
    > Get your definitions straight.
    Bizarre.
    skeledrew · 1790540100 · focus · HN ↗
    > Like you know it is played out
    Yeah there are people out there who think only they have the right to be in a particular space, because birth or skin colour or whatever other attributes they use to set themselves apart and above. Virtually indistinguishable from the Nazis, slavers and every other group that considered themselves superior to another group that doesn't meet their criteria for inclusion; only difference is there are now laws and the world is watching closely for gas chambers and the like nowadays, so they find loopholes in said laws to continue dehumanizing and excluding others. You sound very much like one belonging to the former group.
    llm_nerd · 1790540644 · focus · HN ↗
    ROFL. Again, this nonsense is so hilariously played out. Pathetic.
    Anyway, good luck with noise like that. It's good for a laugh. Like I have to confess that I'm not sure if you're having a laugh and this is a parody, and I hope it is.
    skeledrew · 1790542656 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    happytoexplain · 1790513692 · focus · HN ↗
    Nations demonstrably are suffering, though. You may make arguments about what you think is/isn't the core issue (economic, cultural, crime, xenophobia, whatever), but the result is simply observable in hundreds of millions of voices.
    I am not a free market absolutist - I don't think I implied that anywhere.
    skeledrew · 1790558993 · focus · HN ↗
    > Nations demonstrably are suffering
    > hundreds of millions of voices
    That's a vibe, not an argument. And the data doesn’t line up with your catastrophe story. Migration tends to raise global output and, on average, has positive effects on destination GDP per capita over time[0]. It turns out that immigrant effects on native jobs is near net zero, as there are small losses or gains depending on skill mix in the various local labour markets. Actually new immigrants have a greater effect on the jobs of old immigrants[1] (news to me, but makes sense). Similarly in welfare, there's pretty much negligible impact in more advanced economies, leaning positive over time especially when immigrants arrive as working-age adults, which is the norm[2].
    I could go on, but I think that's enough research out of me. You don't have to be a "free market absolutist" to see that the reality is far more mixed than “nations are suffering.” Yes, poorly designed immigration policies can lead to problems. No, there's nothing authoritative to backup claims that immigration is broadly destructive, which makes those voices uninformed. Or prejudiced.
    [0] <a href="https://www.elibrary.imf.org/view/journals/001/2021/088/article-A001-en.xml" rel="nofollow">https://www.elibrary.imf.org/view/journals/001/2021/088/arti...
    [1] <a href="https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/87518/1/11-103.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/87518/1/11-103.pdf
    [2] <a href="https://www.imf.org/external/np/g20/pdf/2015/111515background.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.imf.org/external/np/g20/pdf/2015/111515backgroun...
  3. happytoexplain · 1790450954 · focus · HN ↗
    It's OK if they choose to seek other avenues for dealing with that problem. The easiest solution is often not the best, and sometimes there is no net-positive path forward.
    greggoB · 1790510317 · focus · HN ↗
    Sure, so long as they're willing to deal with the consequences.
    Though I would debate the idea that immigration is an "easy" solution. Perhaps the way it's frequently being done, with a lack of social integration, etc. But that's just bad policy.
    mangodrunk · 1790617657 · focus · HN ↗
    You’re fear mongering. The sky is falling if they don’t take in a foreign population to exploit for cheap labor.
    Your claim that it’s just a demographic shift is like the argument for the founding of the US. It was just a demographic shift. You might have your opinions guided by colonialism more than you think.
    greggoB · 1790619330 · focus · HN ↗
    > You’re fear mongering
    > Your claim that it’s just a demographic shift is like the argument for the founding of the US.
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-referential_humor" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-referential_humor
    mangodrunk · 1790627677 · focus · HN ↗
    You continue to claim calamity and seem to think one possible path is the only one or even preferred. Perhaps a natural reduction in the population would be a good thing for easing climate change.
    greggoB · 1790630970 · focus · HN ↗
    My above comment just quoted you and included a link to an article about irony - bit hard to see where you're seeing continued claims of anything in that.
  4. jgb1984 · 1790497363 · focus · HN ↗
    It's baffling to me how we come up with economic justifications for forced mass immigration. Mass immigration of mainly non-western low skill / low education people is causing a catastrophic economic burden on western Europe. Unemployment rates of those are much higher than natives, even when you look at 2nd or 3rd generation. Not to mention that most European capitals have become poverty ghettos where the original inhabitants don't recognize their own country any longer. Non-EU foreign origins are overrepresented in crime and prison stats. There are not enough low skilled jobs. There is not enough housing. There is not enough infrastructure. Mass immigration is the most disruptive disaster that was ever forced upon western Europe (forced, because there has been a large democratic majority AGAINST this type of immigration since decades).
    Very sad state of affairs. Good on Japan that they see the danger and try to do something about it before it's too late.
    greggoB · 1790510002 · focus · HN ↗
    This is all... just nonsense? Like what is your source for any of this, some rightwing boomer facebook group?
    Nothing has been forced upon Western Europe - we have aging populations and shrinking demographics, so a need for people to plug the holes in the workforce.
    There is no illuminati-type conspiracy here. Japan has lost 5 mil people or so since 2010, and the median age is like 50. At some point there will be nobody to work and pay tax, no doctors or nurses to take care of the elderly What's the plan exactly to deal with this, what's the magic solution that doesn't somehow involve immigration?
    superdisk · 1790522668 · focus · HN ↗
    Having the population shrink and just letting the wheels fall off is vastly superior to ethnically cleansing your own country by importing a bunch of foreigners. At least you can rebuild from the first scenario.
    greggoB · 1790537646 · focus · HN ↗
    > ethnically cleansing your own country
    Aha, OK.
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement_conspiracy_theory" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement_conspiracy_t...
    superdisk · 1790543321 · focus · HN ↗
    It's not a theory, let alone a conspiracy one. It's a plain and simple fact. It's why we're having this conversation in the first place. Britain went from 88% native British in 2000 to 73% in 2025. They will become a minority in their own country in the next 50 years. Similar has happened in Sweden, Germany, France, many others.
    What are you even trying to imply by posting that link?
    greggoB · 1790582098 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm straight up saying that linking demographic shifts to some grand plan has already been recognised as a racist conspiracy theory.
    Britain is a good for example: they (and France) spent the 20th century doing anything and everything to prevent their empires crumbling. One such thing was easing movement of people with their old colonies to maintain influence.
    Turns out things can happen without little green men being involved.
    superdisk · 1790599174 · focus · HN ↗
    Okay, so you acknowledge that orchestrated or not, the native populations of European countries are going extinct and ultimately are going to be replaced. Japan doesn't want that, as it's an existential issue for their nation. I would argue possibly THE most existential issue a nation can face.
    I would personally argue that it IS orchestrated, as this massive change happened in 50 years after 1000+ years of no change, but it's not relevant to the actual outcome. Call it a racist conspiracy theory all you want, people are becoming immune to that strategy.
    greggoB · 1790606002 · focus · HN ↗
    I do not acknowledge that, how do you get to "extinction" from "demographic shifts"? That is quite the impressive leap.
    The reason for Japan's (brief) attempt at immigration is they recognised their demographic decline as an actual existential risk. They've chickened out because it proved sufficiently politically unpopular - this is not the same thing. Good luck to them dealing with their demographics in some other as-yet-unknown way.
    Yes it's clear you've been drinking the koolaid. And no, people have migrated around for thousands of years, that's simply not grounded in reality. How do you think humans got from Africa to the rest of the planet? Or does that not count as migration because it's somehow too far in the past?
    I don't know how else to refer to a conspiracy theory that's primarily driven by fears/hatred of others based not on their merits and values but their ethnicity/race. If you have another preferred term that accurately depicts this I'd be happy to use it instead.
    anal_reactor · 1790575729 · focus · HN ↗
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_London" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_London
    White population of London fell from 97,7% in 1961 to 53,8% in 2021, probably below 50% now. What's happening to Britain is the same thing that British did to indigenous populations during colonial times.
    Whether this is orchestrated or not is debatable, but denying simple statistics from governmental agencies in democratic countries is... well... very close to a conspiracy-theory
    greggoB · 1790582543 · focus · HN ↗
    > What's happening to Britain is the same thing that British did to indigenous populations during colonial times.
    For sure, the actual colonisation and enslavement of peoples around the world is totally equivalent to a demographic shift.
    > Whether this is orchestrated or not is debatable
    It's not, it's very widely recognised as a racist conspiracy theory.
    jgb1984 · 1790584493 · focus · HN ↗
    You're missing the forest for the trees. I don't care if it's some kind of evil orchestration. That's the least of my worries. What I want is for it to be stopped. And that desire has an overwhelming democratic majority in most European countries AFAIK. Or is democratic decision making only important when it's an outcome you agree with?
    greggoB · 1790598728 · focus · HN ↗
    If "an overwhelming democratic majority" want it stopped and it presumably hasn't, then that implies there's must be a conspiracy acting against said majority. Or how do you square this circle?
    In any case, there is no country in Europe in which anti-immigration parties have an absolute majority (> 50%), let alone an "overwhelming" one [0]. So to answer your question: yes, democratic decision making is important to me, especially such that it actually reflects the will of the electorate and not some wish a minority within it has.
    [0] <a href="https://popu-list.org/" rel="nofollow">https://popu-list.org/
    anal_reactor · 1790603673 · focus · HN ↗
    > then that implies there's must be a conspiracy acting against said majority.
    Or that immigration simply isn't their most important policy, even though they support stricter measures.
    Imagine you have a choice between two parties: party A wants to detonate an atomic bomb in the capital but also create well-funded animal shelters. Party B opposes the destruction of the capital city, but they want to turn all puppies in the country into kebabs. What do you vote? You don't want to eat ground puppies, do you?
    greggoB · 1790608306 · focus · HN ↗
    WAT?
    If these are the only party choices an electorate has, it seems to me they have bigger problems. And so option C, the people don't vote, hence giving neither party a mandate to do what they want?
    I really struggle to see how an example this obtuse has any analogy to reality.
    anal_reactor · 1790610692 · focus · HN ↗
    TBH I think you deeply misunderstand how democratic voting works.
    greggoB · 1790613877 · focus · HN ↗
    You're free to think that, but it notably doesn't address the obtuseness of your example to supposedly demonstrate it.
2. cafebabbe · 1790449243 · focus · HN ↗
  This is going to cause more pain to the Japanese people.
  1. happytoexplain · 1790451482 · focus · HN ↗
    They don't believe so. Maybe they are wrong! There are pros and cons.
3. tremon · 1790449331 · focus · HN ↗
  There is nothing pragmatic about kicking out the workforce you imported because of a shortage of native labour. The pragmatist stance would be to accept those differences, and focus on addressing/alleviating them. Cutting your nose to spite your face is more idealism than pragmatism.
4. wk_end · 1790449524 · focus · HN ↗
  This is a shift away from pragmatism; pragmatism would be acknowledging Japan's economic need for immigration.
  Whether Europe or North America have a problem with too much immigration and not enough integration is debatable, maybe - and I suspect that's where your perspective comes from - but Japan decidedly does not (maybe too much tourism, and I feel at least some of the antagonism towards foreigners comes from that, but no matter). Immigrants still make up a very small percentage of the population, mostly in Tokyo; given the existing challenges with immigration, they tend to be extremely diligent, respectful, appreciative of Japanese culture, and hard-working.
  This is just a populist conservative government pandering to the some of the worst aspects in society to distract from their failures.
  1. appreciatorBus · 1790450088 · focus · HN ↗
    Pragmatism could just as easily be a decision by the public collectively to have more babies. There’s nothing about immigration that makes it inherently pragmatic. It could be, with the agreement of the electorate, away to compensate for the electorates decisions to have fewer babies. But it’s not up for us outside of Japan to lecture them on whether or not they are being consistent on this.
  2. flamethrower123 · 1790450729 · focus · HN ↗
    I’d say having a wealth and language filter is pragmatism.
  3. happytoexplain · 1790451021 · focus · HN ↗
    What's pragmatic depends on your values.
    wk_end · 1790451307 · focus · HN ↗
    I think most people would say that's sort of the opposite of the meaning of the word "pragmatic", actually.
    happytoexplain · 1790454523 · focus · HN ↗
    Technically you're probably right, since most people are not terribly rational. Most people believe their values are the only correct ones, in which case there is exactly one "pragmatic" path.
  4. pjjpo · 1790512129 · focus · HN ↗
    This is a government that needs anything to distract from its failures indeed. But that's not changing unfortunately - given there seems to be no real direction to fix the economy that is currently in a gutter, I think it's pragmatic to restrict immigration. Crime is skyrocketing, both Japanese and immigrants - even the Yakuza are getting into scam operations on Katagi, i.e. normal people. This basically never happened before and is a turning point. It's what happens in a bad economy and will just continue to get worse.
    Low wage immigrants will not be able to fix the economy (demographics related decline is still decades away, yes it is important long term but not if the fundamentals don't improve). They will increase crime though since that's just what happens when you are poor in a bad economy. There won't be culling of poor locals but restricting inpu where possible, immigration, seems ok given the overall picture.
    thedailymail · 1790594792 · focus · HN ↗
    Not sure where you got the idea that crime is skyrocketing in Japan, but government crime rate statistics show a plummeting trend since the already-low 2000s, with a very minor uptick in the past 2-3 years.
    <a href="https://opengov.jp/en/society/crime/" rel="nofollow">https://opengov.jp/en/society/crime/
5. knlam · 1790481957 · focus · HN ↗
  I doubt that. The population is aging, and there are serious shortage of blue collar workers
  Japan is facing a significant shortage of long-term care workers. The Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare estimates that the country will need approximately 2.4 million care workers by FY2026 and 2.72 million by FY2040 (about 250,000 and 570,000 more, respectively, than the 2.15 million employed in FY2022)[1]
  [1] <a href="https://www.mhlw.go.jp/stf/newpage_41379.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.mhlw.go.jp/stf/newpage_41379.html
hankbond · 1790448659 · focus · HN ↗
> applicants for permanent residency will need to show that their annual household income exceeds the Japanese average
Can someone explain why they think this is a detrimental practice for native Japanese?
1. happytoexplain · 1790448761 · focus · HN ↗
  > Can someone explain why they think this is a detrimental practice for native Japanese?
  You're quoting a practice applied to foreigners, but you say "for native Japanese". Maybe there was a typo, or I could be misreading?
  1. lazyasciiart · 1790449078 · focus · HN ↗
    Presumably they’re asking why this is being done, since it’s obviously not for the benefit of the immigrants.
  2. hankbond · 1790475027 · focus · HN ↗
    That's my bad, it's poorly worded. I meant something closer to "why would this practice of excluding low-earning foreigners be bad for the native Japanese".
2. lazyasciiart · 1790449025 · focus · HN ↗
  From the article “Japan needs foreign workers because of labour shortages. But if the conditions for long-term settlement become substantially more difficult, this could potentially reduce Japan’s attractiveness to foreign workers who are considering Japan as a place to build their long-term lives,”
  Specifically, Japan needs workers in human services to physically care for the very large elderly population. They need them so badly that they are in the process of implementing easier work visas for them. But do you think those jobs pay more than the national average?
  1. ng12 · 1790449219 · focus · HN ↗
    No, but that's the point. They don't want long-term residents, they want short-term labor. This has been the goal for a long time, and if you move to Japan expecting anything else you'll be disappointed.
    PorciiVorbesc · 1790461343 · focus · HN ↗
    >They don't want long-term residents, they want short-term labor.
    So just like Singapore and wealthy Arab Gulf states.
  2. zug_zug · 1790450699 · focus · HN ↗
    "Labour shortage" is just the business's perspective on "plenty of jobs!"
    If there truly is a shortage of outstanding jobs, then they can compete and raise salaries and the least significant roles ultimately won't get filled, which is optimal.
    lazyasciiart · 1790493209 · focus · HN ↗
    Sure, it’s optimal when it’s not your grandma lying in their own shit for 12 hours.
  3. hankbond · 1790475142 · focus · HN ↗
    It's my understanding that end-of-life care service workers are paid relatively little (at least in the US). It does seem like this policy would exacerbate those labor shortages.
3. legitster · 1790449557 · focus · HN ↗
  Think of the US - the reduction of low wage immigrants has been a large factor in our economy lately. Food prices have gone up, and in the long term there's fewer young families getting added to the social security system.
  While it's cute to think that suddenly these jobs are going to Americans, but these are mostly undesirable jobs that pay less than typical jobs. To the extent that they even get filled by native workers, it drives real wages down and not up.
  Meanwhile, only allowing immigrants from the top of the income bracket crowds out the top side of the job market.
  It's a lowering tide that lowers all boats.
  1. appreciatorBus · 1790449961 · focus · HN ↗
    This is very one-sided. There are plenty of low income and working class people who have suddenly found more work than they have had in years due to reductions in immigration.
    aceofspades19 · 1790460192 · focus · HN ↗
    What's the empirical evidence that proves this? If the economy gets worse as a result of lack of immigration, its going to reduce opportunities for low income and working class people.
    appreciatorBus · 1790519289 · focus · HN ↗
    Again, totally one-sided.
    You’re making an assumption that immigration lead leads to a better economy, ignoring the possibility of more competition for jobs, lead leading to less power and wages for workers.
    aceofspades19 · 1790549150 · focus · HN ↗
    There are studies that show that immigration leads to higher job and wage growth: <a href="https://www.migrationpolicy.org/explainer/immigrants-us-economy" rel="nofollow">https://www.migrationpolicy.org/explainer/immigrants-us-econ... (look at the bottom for sources). It's not an assumption.
    You're focusing on one side of the supply-demand graph. Immigrants increase both the demand & supply side, they require more jobs but also the increase in population increases demand for more products and services. There is no fixed amount of jobs in a country.
    I do agree if a country were to let in 100 million immigrants over night or some insane number that it would mess up the economy, there is an upper bound to this.
    appreciatorBus · 1790787599 · focus · HN ↗
    Wonderful, then we agree, we are just haggling over the quantity or pace.
    I would also introduce the concept of culture – if the economic indicators seem fine, but the culture is becoming balkanized and sectarian, then I would argue you still have a problem driven by quantity and or pace of immigration.
    aceofspades19 · 1790808916 · focus · HN ↗
    Well I mean I've never heard anyone argue in favour of absolutely unlimited immigration but okay.
    How do you measure culture empirically and how can you empirically say that culture is being balkanized specifically by immigrants and not other factors? You can't just take anecdotal evidence to say okay no more immigration because you have big feelings about it. There are places in the world still where having a non-zero amount of people of a different race moving into the neighbourhood would trigger some people to make the claim that the culture is becoming balkanized and sectarian.
4. SenHeng · 1790450265 · focus · HN ↗
  It restricts immigration to cities where the high wages are, ie. Tokyo which is itself already too crowded, and forces foreigners living in less populated parts of the country to leave, further depopulating it.
  It also heavily disadvantages singles.
  1. hankbond · 1790474951 · focus · HN ↗
    That makes sense (and seems undesirable). It's my understanding that Japan has a lot of near-ghost-towns with empty houses they badly need people to live in and improve (and presumably spend money in the area).
5. downrightmike · 1790454420 · focus · HN ↗
  gentrification pushing locals out. super simple
  1. ares623 · 1790459734 · focus · HN ↗
    irony and fascism
6. majormajor · 1790460918 · focus · HN ↗
  If there were a significant amount of such people coming in it would push up the cost of living for the average-(or below-average)-income Japanese citizen.
  Look at any of the Western cities that became attractive for retirement or "investment properties" for wealthy international folks... it makes everything more expensive for everyone already there.
  If the concern was just about preventing things from changing for existing citizens, restrictions across the income band would seem to make much more sense.
  1. hankbond · 1790475260 · focus · HN ↗
    Given that that this policy is targeted against low-income foreigners I was under the impression it was meant to prevent downward wage pressure. Given the current political climate it may be more socially focused than I originally thought.
7. Tiktaalik · 1790480324 · focus · HN ↗
  you get rich assholes that have an ability to casually leave so aren't really invested in the country.
autoexec · 1790448745 · focus · HN ↗
Requiring proficiency in the language is reasonable, but requiring everyone to be richer than the average member of the population and have enough money banked to live off of for 30 years seems insane. That goes well beyond simply making sure that people are able to care for themselves.
1. happytoexplain · 1790448791 · focus · HN ↗
  I think the argument is that the requirements should be stricter than "able to care for themselves".
  1. autoexec · 1790449143 · focus · HN ↗
    From the article: In an announcement detailing the changes, Japan’s Immigration Services Agency stressed the need for foreigners to “live independently” and have “a stable life without the risk of becoming a burden”.
    Their new requirements far exceed what is needed to meet that stated goal
    jfewhfuehg · 1790449644 · focus · HN ↗
    You are failing to read between the lines. They simply want less foreigners. It is the same as the 100k fee for H1B.
    happytoexplain · 1790450330 · focus · HN ↗
    > They simply want less foreigners
    How is that "between the lines"? Yes, that is the goal. If your argument is that it's just because of simple racism or something, then make that argument.
    jfewhfuehg · 1790451151 · focus · HN ↗
    Ironically you have also failed to read between the lines of my comment.
    happytoexplain · 1790451332 · focus · HN ↗
    You should explain, rather than being ominous/snarky. This doesn't belong on HN.
    duhher4 · 1790461651 · focus · HN ↗
    There really needs to be a term like "racism" without the negative connotations that it now carries. Yes, in the strictest sense, Japanese people wanting fewer foreigners in their territory is "racist", but it's not racist.
    jahnu · 1790462075 · focus · HN ↗
    It’s xenophobia. Doesn’t smell much better.
    happytoexplain · 1790463728 · focus · HN ↗
    That's just the word we use for racism when the "other" isn't primarily a visually distinct race.
    habinero · 1790464827 · focus · HN ↗
    There's nothing wrong with the words. People with those beliefs just don't like their opinions accurately described lol. Hit dogs holler and all that.
    happytoexplain · 1790463677 · focus · HN ↗
    I've heard "culturalism". It's devastating that this game even needs to be played.
  2. vixen99 · 1790449963 · focus · HN ↗
    Maybe it's and taking into consideration unforeseen calls upon their cash. Sounds reasonable to me.
2. SV_BubbleTime · 1790449000 · focus · HN ↗
  Seems like they want to keep their culture and their country for their people. Yes… villains, apparently.
  1. autoexec · 1790449271 · focus · HN ↗
    If the goal is to preserve their culture I doubt that insisting that everyone who moves there have "fuck you" money is going to help as much as they think it will. At least some percentage of those who meet that bar will be people who are selfish and very accustomed to just doing whatever they want. The more money people have, the greater their ability to reshape the environment and culture around them to suit their individual preferences. Rich people aren't moving to remote villages in bumblefuku nowhere either. Having a bunch of rich foreigners concentrated in the major (and culturally influential) cities will only make it worse.
    toomuchtodo · 1790449443 · focus · HN ↗
    They have a rapidly aging society and a high national debt load, it’s reasonable to exclude anyone who might even have a chance of being a burden. High value immigrants always have value, either in wealth or economic potential, anyone else is charity if they cannot provide surplus economic value once their own needs have been met or support themselves off of wealth or income they bring with them.
    It’s unfortunate when we don’t get picked for the dodgeball team. Life is inherently unfair and mostly a lottery.
    (not against foreign aid charity by any means, but delivering it distinct from immigration policy is potentially more efficient and optimal in many ways)
    mitthrowaway2 · 1790460821 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm not certain. In an aging society, the thing they'd need are young laborers. People with 30 years of savings are unlikely to be either young, nor laborers.
    Maybe those wealthy immigrants are very talented people who are very good at, say, managing an insurance company or researching pharmaceuticals, but Japan has a glut of 55-year-olds who can do that stuff very well. They're running short of young people who can be nurses, junior machinists, and construction workers.
    In a macroeconomic sense, wealthy people might be able to pay for the services they need from their own pockets, but functionally it's not that different than being unemployed (unless they choose to work). They would be almost purely adding demand to the economy. The wealth they are bringing represents supply that they added into the economy in the past and abroad, and now they have a wallet full of paper with which they can buy services for the next 30 years in Japan without having to do any further productive work.
    toomuchtodo · 1790467344 · focus · HN ↗
    I don’t disagree, and a lot of this discussion is about the future of automation and having sufficient industrial capacity to meet an aging populous’ needs. With that said, you want to attract the right young immigrants to come and stay: willing to integrate, supportive of their adoptive culture, and a net positive to the economy and community.
    SV_BubbleTime · 1790467737 · focus · HN ↗
    They have issues so they had better import people who won’t share their culture and beliefs?
    Sweet deal.
    anigbrowl · 1790468552 · focus · HN ↗
    High value immigrants always have value
    No they don't. Such a person might use their existing wealth to import goods or commodities, undercutting domestic competitors, extract wealth from the local economy, and then decamp. I'm not arguing that people with high net worth necessarily behave like this, but economic benefit to the host is by no means a given.
    For example, the market for vaping-type products in Japan (technically 'heated tobacco') is dominated by American companies (legally) and SE Asian criminal syndicates (illegally). The legal products generate high tax revenue for the government (but not for Japanese tobacco companies) but it's foreseeable that much of the tax benefit will be offset by higher future healthcare costs, while the net profits of the business operation disappear overseas rather than remaining within the economy.
    happytoexplain · 1790449472 · focus · HN ↗
    50th percentile + 30 years subsistence is not "fuck you" money, but regardless, income has multiple effects, not only cultural. They don't want to be financially supporting foreigners, of course.
    Espressosaurus · 1790449622 · focus · HN ↗
    30 years of money banked is quite a bit no matter which way you slice it.
    happytoexplain · 1790449662 · focus · HN ↗
    "Quite a bit", yes, I agree with that location for the goalposts.
    dgellow · 1790460597 · focus · HN ↗
    It’s pretty much the definition of fuck you money
    bigstrat2003 · 1790463236 · focus · HN ↗
    30 years of living expenses banked is absolutely "fuck you" money. 50th percentile income is not.
    khazhoux · 1790466623 · focus · HN ↗
    Having enough money to not lift a finger until the year 2056 is absolutely in the "fuck you" zone.
    happytoexplain · 1790467669 · focus · HN ↗
    That's fine, it's just a semantic argument about how people use the term, which doesn't affect my actual assertion, which is that it's not an unreasonable bar.
    anigbrowl · 1790471636 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    appreciatorBus · 1790449664 · focus · HN ↗
    The percentage of the global population with fuck you money is so vanishingly small that a nation of 100 million such as Japan, could import them all with almost zero impact on their culture.
    Furthermore, it’s deeply disingenuous to suggest that inconsiderate people only exist on the upper end of the income distribution. Assholes who want to take over and control others are found at every income level. If you want to keep your country from descending into Marxist dystopia then making fuck you money a requirement for immigration is not a terrible idea.
    throwitaway222 · 1790471077 · focus · HN ↗
    Well stated
    Tiktaalik · 1790479683 · focus · HN ↗
    yea really. The reality is that people who want to move to Japan, learn Japanese, devote their life to this are probably very interested in Japanese culture. There is no risk to Japanese culture from these people.
    It's absolutely more likely that the very wealthy that aren't taking as many risks in moving to Japan are not going to care about Japanese culture.
  2. selfmodruntime · 1790449315 · focus · HN ↗
    They also want foreigners to not depend on their welfare system. The horror.
  3. dgellow · 1790459825 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
  4. matheusmoreira · 1790476122 · focus · HN ↗
    There is exactly one solution to that problem: raising the birth rate by any means necessary. There is no nation without natalism.
    Also, old people are extremely expensive. Reducing immigration without natalism will only result in economic collapse. The old tax the young to pay for themselves. If there is no young, it's literally over for them. There is no escape from this reality.
  5. myaccountonhn · 1790482880 · focus · HN ↗
    When you kick out people who live peacefully in your country, who contribute and have ties with friends and living their life. Yes, it's causing harm.
3. Animats · 1790449318 · focus · HN ↗
  The US has something like this, but the income threshold is lower.[1] US immigrants in most categories have to show that they will not become a "public charge", that is, need US welfare benefits.
  [1] <a href="https://www.uscis.gov/newsroom/alerts/uscis-issues-guidance-on-making-public-charge-inadmissibility-determination" rel="nofollow">https://www.uscis.gov/newsroom/alerts/uscis-issues-guidance-...
  1. autoexec · 1790449466 · focus · HN ↗
    That's reasonable too. People who move to a new country should be able to support themselves there and have a good chance to thrive in their new home. If the average income of the population isn't enough for that to be possible, your country has bigger problems than immigrants
    tchalla · 1790449980 · focus · HN ↗
    Manu tings are reasonable but not done. For example, it seems unreasonable that one country can print any amount of money due to being called the reserve currency and use it to influence countries around the world.
    If you want fairness, start from the top and don’t punch down. I’m not against any definitions of immigration but generally most definitions aren’t reasonable. They are just downstream and issues of an upstream systems problem.
    jumpman_miya · 1790462207 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    [deleted] · 1790459509 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    rayiner · 1790463094 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    Aeolun · 1790463935 · focus · HN ↗
    Mostly you need immigrants for the jobs that your osn population doesn’t want. Nobody is going to pay above average for those jobs.
    pfannkuchen · 1790468516 · focus · HN ↗
    If there aren’t any immigrants to work them, either the pay will increase or the product/service will disappear. Essential services and products won’t disappear, so this seems okay?
    If we look at it from the other direction, we are artificially increasing quality of life by taking advantage of foreigners who have no better option than to work for little pay. Getting rid of this seems positive?
    AlotOfReading · 1790481624 · focus · HN ↗
    Essential services disappear all the time. Look at the increasing rarity of teachers and the effect that has on student/teacher ratios or quality. Same with medical staff, farm labor, and dozens of other industries.
    I'm not saying that exploiting immigrants for labor is necessarily good, but the free hand of the labor market doesn't usually achieve policy goals.
    pfannkuchen · 1790490337 · focus · HN ↗
    Teaching and medicine are both highly regulated, so not great examples of market behavior producing poor results. Quite the opposite!
    Farm labor is not very regulated, but until about 10 minutes ago it was flooded with cheap foreign labor which seriously distorted the pricing mechanism for labor. And, that distortion helped to paper over some serious money supply expansion, i.e. the foreign labor helped food not get as much more expensive over time as it otherwise would have. If we keep things steady for several years we will see the market stabilize and rebalance, albeit now at a higher level (due to money supply expansion).
    *Note that I don’t really support the haphazard way this has been done, and I’m not confident that things actually will be held steady given the political environment, I’m just stating what theoretically would happen if they were.
    autoexec · 1790614149 · focus · HN ↗
    Exactly. Any business that depends on a large easily exploited underclass who doesn't have the rights, protections, or freedoms of the rest of the population is either a failed business or one that's exploiting people to line their own pockets. In either case, there's no reason why we should allow them to do it.
  2. TMWNN · 1790460110 · focus · HN ↗
    Every single person who came through Ellis Island <<a href="https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-brooklyn-daily-eagle-precautions-tak/20781025/" rel="nofollow">https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-brooklyn-daily-eagle-...>
    * was a legal immigrant
    * had passed a medical inspection
    * had proof of having enough resources to pay for their upkeep in the US, or a US financial sponsor guaranteeing same
    * was turned away if failing any of the above tests, with no possibility of appeal
    Shipping liner companies were charged to return ineligible passengers to their origin (the same is true with airlines today), so they had every incentive to verify ahead of time that they could enter the destination country. The "only 2% of immigrants were rejected at Ellis Island" statistic often bandied-about by the pro-open borders side elides the restrictions that caused the rate to be so low in the first place.
    I, for one, am very much in favor of reinstating such barriers to entering the US.
    dgellow · 1790460391 · focus · HN ↗
    Why? The US doesn’t have a problem of too many people „draining“ the country resources.
    cdot2 · 1790461172 · focus · HN ↗
    Something like two thirds of the US federal budget is spent on some form of welfare. Assuming you want to keep that ratio you could spend more per person with fewer people withdrawing from that system.
    lokar · 1790461550 · focus · HN ↗
    On average, foreign born US residents use less public assistance then native born.
    zdragnar · 1790462443 · focus · HN ↗
    I'd love to see some source for this, because from what I've seen, 59% of undocumented immigrants receive some form of welfare (the state of California spends roughly $10 billion a year alone on this) and documented migrants are at roughly the same rate, double the native born population's rate of 28%.
    lokar · 1790462743 · focus · HN ↗
    Not hard to find, here is a right wing, anti-immigrant anti-service source:
    <a href="https://www.cato.org/blog/immigrants-still-use-much-less-welfare-native-born-americans" rel="nofollow">https://www.cato.org/blog/immigrants-still-use-much-less-wel...
    zdragnar · 1790475603 · focus · HN ↗
    The vast majority of the difference, according to the article, is social security benefits and Medicare. The non-retirement difference is very small.
    > Native-born Americans use an average of ... $3,638 in means-tested benefits in 2023. By comparison, immigrants used ... $3,370 in means-tested benefits.
    The article also ignores state provided benefits, and thus the disparity between documented and undocumented migrant populations. The article 's "much less" headline is not really supported by the evidence provided.
    lokar · 1790540996 · focus · HN ↗
    It also includes naturalized citizens, if that matters to you
    mullingitover · 1790463461 · focus · HN ↗
    > I'd love to see some source for this [proceeds to throw out a bunch of source-free numbers]
    I looked up the source for these numbers.
    It's the Center for Immigration Studies, and they are notorious for being a right-wing think tank used to dress up up anti-immigration policy using misleading statistics.
    How notorious are they? Well, they are listed as a hate group with the Southern Poverty Law Center[1].
    The numbers you're citing aren't 'welfare,' the biggest thing is using the education system. The thing that, long term, makes they into productive taxpayers. CIS doesn't figure the long-term benefits into their numbers because that would destroy their thesis.
    [1] <a href="https://www.splcenter.org/resources/extremist-files/center-immigration-studies/" rel="nofollow">https://www.splcenter.org/resources/extremist-files/center-i...
    acheron · 1790464903 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    zdragnar · 1790466895 · focus · HN ↗
    The HUD secretary mentioned the number, and the number was also included in a Congressional report, though it ended up being through testimony, also from that same source, which I hadn't realized. I'd been under the impression the one claim was independently sourced from actual federal data, rather being from CIS.
    In any case, none of this amounts to immigrants using less welfare than native born residents, which is what I was asking sources for.
    stackskipton · 1790516795 · focus · HN ↗
    I can't find study now from CIS but when I dug into it, it lumped citizen children of undocumented immigrants into "undocumented immigrant", and other studies classify them as native/citizen. It also looked at estimated education costs since schools are required to take all school age kids without regard to immigration status and many of big school systems don't have a breakdown of immigration status. CIS argument was: If parents are immigrants, shouldn't be contribute the kids cost to them regardless of kids status?
    Looking at CBO numbers, CBO reports that recent immigration into United States is drain, in particular, at state and local level since that's generally budget that gets impacted the most by people. <a href="https://www.cbo.gov/publication/61464" rel="nofollow">https://www.cbo.gov/publication/61464
    Aurornis · 1790464246 · focus · HN ↗
    This is a statistic that is technically true but has some hidden nuance.
    Depending on what gets counted, "public assistance" stats like this usually include medicare and social security. (Social security gets debated because of how it's paid-in, but I'm not here to argue that. The fact is, it gets included in these stats). Those two make up the dominant consumption of public assistance to the point that things we hear about in the media like food stamps are kind of a rounding error.
    Medicare and social security are collected primarily by older people. Foreign born populations have much lower numbers of people in that age bracket than the general popualtion.
    Combine those two facts and it's not surprising that when you look at charts of foreign born vs native born, the foreign born population uses less public assistance.
    It's a statistic that is more about age distribution than anything. Like when you one of those bad maps trying to prove a point but really just showing population density of big cities.
    lokar · 1790465191 · focus · HN ↗
    Natives also use more in SNAP and medicade
    hyperpape · 1790462114 · focus · HN ↗
    Completely wrong, except possibly if you're defining Social Security as welfare, in which case honesty would compel you to note that no one draws Social Security except based on having previously made contributions via dedicated taxation for social security.
    jleyank · 1790463754 · focus · HN ↗
    Just a reminder... Social Security requires 40 quarters (ie, 10 years) of income to even qualify for a pension. And the pension is based on what you earn, which is what you pay into the system.
    PorciiVorbesc · 1790469661 · focus · HN ↗
    Only 10 years? Damn, here in many EU countries you need to contribute much longer than that to qualify for receiving a pension. And supposedly we're the socialist ones.
    jleyank · 1790509998 · focus · HN ↗
    There’s a difference between “able to receive” vs. “receive a useful amount”. As I recall they tally one’s contributions when determining payment. But like all government systems it can probably be gamed.
    FWIW, social security and Medicare taxes are noticeably higher in the US than Canada. Pay more get more.
    aero_code · 1790466223 · focus · HN ↗
    I agree that Social Security is not plain welfare, but it has significant welfare components. Simplifying some, you get back something like 90% of the first $15,432 income per year but only 32% of income above that up to $92,988. (And above that, it's 15%.) Only getting 32% back of what you pay in so that the rest can be redistributed to others who made less could be considered partly welfare. Also, if you die too young, you don't get the money back, nor can you give it to your children. It's redistributed to other people. I'm not saying it's bad (I think it's probably good overall), but I can see how it's partly welfare.
    dgellow · 1790462298 · focus · HN ↗
    The US doesn’t lack the capital for welfare. The country decides to instead waste its resources fighting wars, fighting its allies, fighting its trade partners. The money is here, there is no will to allocate it to welfare. You could reduce the number of people on welfare by a massive amount and none of the savings from that would get distributed to the remaining recipient
    voidfunc · 1790463719 · focus · HN ↗
    Those wars are essential to protecting our economic interests. An isolationist US is impossible. We're pretty much a modern imperial power.
    0xDEAFBEAD · 1790464484 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    voidfunc · 1790465919 · focus · HN ↗
    I hate to break it to you, but the world of pre-1900 has been dead and gone for a solid 120+ years, it was killed off by Europe getting itself into two stupid wars that the Americans had to come over and save them from. Nothing works the same anymore.
    All those European countries get to invest in those nice social programs and isolationism because the US has at least up until now acted as world police and handled their foreign affairs for the most part.
    0xDEAFBEAD · 1790466091 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    kmeisthax · 1790465634 · focus · HN ↗
    No, they're essential to protecting Benjamin Netanyahu's ass. No more and no less.
    Less vindictively, the only economic interest the US has in the Middle East is oil. Relying on oil for your energy needs is, in 2026, a choice and not a requirement. Wind, solar, and the batteries you need to store them are continuously getting cheaper. And for the people who are net consumers of energy - primarily the US, Europe, and China - renewables are better for everything, but especially they're better for energy independence!
    The only things that require oil are airplanes, plastics, and industrial chemical processes (like we make asphalt out of oil and certain inks out of naphtha). Eliminating most of the energy demand for oil would mean a significantly reduced dependence on foreign oil, and more specifically, the political dependence on low gas prices. America rebuilt all its cities in the image of the car and, as a result, made gasoline/petrol a necessary ingredient of urban mobility. This was, again, a choice - we absolutely could have retained and grown our dense urban cores and we can still rebuild what was destroyed.
    But this requires an entire governing body at every level that is not a corpse paraded by the ghosts of Tammany Hall, Standard Oil, and Hitler. The primary crisis in America that is driving these wars is a fundamental lack of political will for alternatives.
    0xDEAFBEAD · 1790466035 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    TheOtherHobbes · 1790467194 · focus · HN ↗
    Then why is gas so expensive?
    kjs3 · 1790471797 · focus · HN ↗
    Because more money is made exporting it? You didn't think this was about you, did you?
    themaninthedark · 1790473227 · focus · HN ↗
    Because we are keeping all the other dealers out...
    FpUser · 1790466322 · focus · HN ↗
    >"Those wars are essential to protecting our economic interests"
    Translation - we bomb people for money. well thanks for being frank anyways. otherwise it is sick to hear all that moralizing about "us being a good guys"
    rayiner · 1790469205 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    [deleted] · 1790483784 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    hyperpape · 1790462748 · focus · HN ↗
    > was a legal immigrant
    Technically true, extremely misleading. The law placed vastly fewer restrictions on who was a legal immigrant for much of that period. Of course, it is true starting in 1921, and 1924, legislation was put in place to limit immigration by "undesirables" such as Asians, Italians and Slavs.
    Curious...which one of those regimes do you want to bring back?
    0xDEAFBEAD · 1790463795 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm not sure people should be forced to live with those they feel xenophobia towards, even if one grants that the feelings of xenophobia have no basis in reality.
    [deleted] · 1790464538 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    habinero · 1790464603 · focus · HN ↗
    They are free to move somewhere else. I don't see why you need to coddle that sort.
    0xDEAFBEAD · 1790464876 · focus · HN ↗
    OK, so considering Sweden, if Sweden is flooded with immigrants, where should the Swedes who just want to live with other Swedes go? Australia??
    Also you do realize that your preferred migration policy will lead to microaggressions (and possibly macroaggressions) against immigrants? If people don't have democratic means to keep out disliked foreigners, they may be tempted to try alternatives. The ballot box is ultimately an alternative to violence.
    TheOtherHobbes · 1790466620 · focus · HN ↗
    Race-hate is a syndrome, not an entitlement.
    rayiner · 1790468730 · focus · HN ↗
    Are you suggesting that all the immigrants in Sweden are acting and thinking exactly like Swedish people, and differ only in "race?" You think the Swedes are jealous about the people who don't need as much sunscreen? Otherwise, your comment is simply irrelevant.
    habinero · 1790475066 · focus · HN ↗
    Nah. Most people get along with others just fine. If you can't, there's something wrong with you.
    usernomdeguerre · 1790466814 · focus · HN ↗
    Your preferred policy also leads to microagressions, where the mere presence of someone who doesn't 'look' swedish would set these 'people' off.
    It seems more like 'xenophobia' is the real culprit here, and should be tackled directly instead of 'granting' it as a preference that doesn't need to be interrogated.
    habinero · 1790474818 · focus · HN ↗
    They can go anywhere they want to. If they can't handle it, they can leave.
    And no, we don't negotiate with terrorists. If people try violence, they go to prison. We don't want antisocial people in our society. They're not valuable citizens.
    0xDEAFBEAD · 1790511089 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    habinero · 1790627272 · focus · HN ↗
    I'd much rather have immigration than those kinds of people. Making them leave is a net bonus, honestly lol
    0xDEAFBEAD · 1790649133 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    whatshisface · 1790464654 · focus · HN ↗
    Before I read your comment, can I see your papers?
    hyperpape · 1790466529 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    rayiner · 1790463409 · focus · HN ↗
    Also don’t forget:
    1) Only 12 million immigrants came through Ellis Island in 60 years.
    2) 30-40% returned home
    3) The U.S. strictly restricted immigration for more than 40 years to assimilate the immigrants.
    4) Even after all that, the U.S. paid a heavy price. It took until the 1980s to clean up the Italian mafia in New York. And immigrant political machines were the origin of the corrupt political structures in cities like New York and Chicago today.
    rendang · 1790466521 · focus · HN ↗
    Would be nice if the people downvoting this tried to make an argument instead
    justin66 · 1790471073 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    Hizonner · 1790471617 · focus · HN ↗
    > Only 12 million immigrants came through Ellis Island in 60 years.
    About ten and a half million of those in 15 years, from 1900 to 1914. Against a 1900 US population of about 76 million.
    > The U.S. strictly restricted immigration for more than 40 years to assimilate the immigrants.
    Or, you know, because the political wind changed.
    > Even after all that, the U.S. paid a heavy price. It took until the 1980s to clean up the Italian mafia in New York.
    Right. Because nobody else would've filled that niche.
    > And immigrant political machines were the origin of the corrupt political structures in cities like New York
    The Tammany Hall machine was founded in 1789, was basically running New York by the 1850s, and was in the thick of New York corruption well past the relevance of Ellis Island.
    > and Chicago today.
    Chicago Democrats were immigrants around the relevant time. Chicago Republicans were from older stock. Both were corrupt.
    rayiner · 1790474741 · focus · HN ↗
    > Or, you know, because the political wind changed.
    Assimilation was the effect of immigration restriction, whether or not that was the motivation. It broke up the chains of migration that facilitated maintenance of separate cultural enclaves.
    > Right. Because nobody else would've filled that niche.
    Canada and Australia never had a similar problem.
    > The Tammany Hall machine was founded in 1789, was basically running New York by the 1850s, and was in the thick of New York corruption well past the relevance of Ellis Island.
    Tammany Hall was not a political machine in 1789. According to Wikipedia: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammany_Hall" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammany_Hall ("Following the 1854 mayoral election and the resulting mayoralty of Fernando Wood, Tammany Hall controlled Democratic Party nominations and political patronage in Manhattan for over a century through its organized network of loyal, well-rewarded, and largely Irish Catholic district and precinct leaders.").
    To be clear, the point isn't that they were Irish. As far as I can tell, Ireland isn't more corrupt than other western european countries. It was the political dynamics that arose from the presence of a large culturally distinct immigrant population.
    > and Chicago today.
    Irish domination of Chicago's political machine long outlasted the Ellis Island era, well into the 1970s: <a href="https://www.thelastward.org/p/what-happened-to-chicagos-irish-machine" rel="nofollow">https://www.thelastward.org/p/what-happened-to-chicagos-iris....
    Hizonner · 1790478325 · focus · HN ↗
    > Canada and Australia never had a similar problem.
    Greetings from Canada. I live in Montreal. We have more of a Mafia problem nowadays than New York (no RICO here), and we were comparable in the 1930s. Bootleggers, remember? Where do you think they were running the booze from? Same "market", same mob. Yeah, they managed to dominate everybody else. That's what I mean about "niches". In fact they did it worldwide, and according to Wikipedia they're prominent in Australia, too. These are transnational groups. The Mafia is also big in Sicily. Are you going to say that's because of (checks notes) Sicilian immigration? Specifically because of a huge wave around 1900?
    We also have Hell's Angels here. Ethnically "white". No immigrant identification whatsoever, totally acculturated... although I assume some of them moved here from the US. Pretty racist and anti-immigrant, actually. Cool fact: I used to live two houses away from Sonny Barger in beautiful Oakland, California. OK, it wasn't actually that cool. Those guys were really noisy. But I assure you they did not come through Ellis Island.
    Apparently Winnipeg has First Nations gangs (Indians to you). Kinda the opposite of immigrants.
    ... plus a grab bag of others, some of them organized by immigrants. Yes, organized crime tends to segregate itself ethnically, so if one group gets the upper hand, you're likely to see its ethnicity as the face of the problem. But all ethnicities get to play, and they will expand into any available vacuum. If you hadn't had the Italian Mafia (worldwide), you'd have had something else (at least regionally).
    And it's not always ethnic. Apparently there's a gang in BC that actually calls itself the United Nations.
    > Tammany Hall was not a political machine in 1789.
    It sure was by 1854, eh, according to your own quote? That was 38 years before Ellis Island opened. Before the specific wave of immigration that you're claiming caused the problem. Goalposts. You are moving them.
    > Irish domination of Chicago's political machine long outlasted the Ellis Island era
    ... and preceded it. Your own link says "Of the 28 most influential Chicago aldermen of the 1890s, 24 were Irish.". I don't think they teleported from Ellis Island and took over in under 8 years.
    rayiner · 1790483981 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    anigbrowl · 1790466093 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    Hizonner · 1790470949 · focus · HN ↗
    > was a legal immigrant
    ... as determined by an on-the-spot interview. Which was admittedly done in a very bigoted way.
    > had passed a medical inspection
    ... which took about one minute to check for red flags. If you had red flags, they diverted you to quarantine. They were mostly looking for TB and some eye disease.
    > had proof of having enough resources to pay for their upkeep in the US, or a US financial sponsor guaranteeing same
    ... by which they meant having as much as $25 on hand (call it $1000 in 2026, though that's a bit high), and convincing the interviewer that you could probably get a job. That convincing step did include claiming, in a way the interviewer found credible, to have skills beyond the "day laborer" level. But only just beyond.
    > I, for one, am very much in favor of reinstating such barriers to entering the US.
    Good news: the medical requirements now are equivalent, the financial/self-support requirements are now much, much higher, and the vetting is vastly more thorough.
  3. Aurornis · 1790463437 · focus · HN ↗
    The US requirements are so much lower that calling them similar does a disservice.
    The proposed requirements in Japan require earnings to exceed Japan's average and also for them to have an equivalent of 30 years of pension payouts saved up.
    The US requirements are not as specific, but for comparison one of the numbers is that that families need to have an income requirement 25% higher than federal poverty guidelines, which very low compared to average US incomes.
    simonsarris · 1790463613 · focus · HN ↗
    they don't require 30 years saved up, only showing (somehow) that you will be able to generate such a pension equivalent over time. I suspect that will be very squishy in practice.
    Aurornis · 1790464304 · focus · HN ↗
    I was going by the article, which says this:
    > Applicants will also be required to have a pension pot equivalent to 30 years of payouts.
    If there's a better article to read, I'd appreciate a link.
    aphexairlines · 1790468490 · focus · HN ↗
    <a href="https://public-comment.e-gov.go.jp/pcm/download?seqNo=0000318905" rel="nofollow">https://public-comment.e-gov.go.jp/pcm/download?seqNo=000031...
    Google Translate:
    > Draft Revisions to the Guidelines for Permission for Permanent Residence (Summary)
    ...
    > Regarding the positioning of the "Permanent Resident" status of residence:
    > ・ Explicitly stated for the first time that, as it is "the most stable legal status—entailing no restrictions on activities or duration of stay and presupposing a lifetime spent in Japan"—there is a "need for particularly careful screening."
    ...
    > Regarding "2. Requirement for Independent Livelihood"
    > ・ Underlying Principle: Explicitly requires an economic status equal to or better than that of Japanese nationals, both currently and in the future.
    > ・ Income: Whether income consistently meets or exceeds the average income level of Japanese households based on household size (raising the standard).
    > ・ Pension: Whether the projected future pension benefit amount reaches the level corresponding to 30 years of enrollment in the Employees' Pension Insurance at the aforementioned annual income level (newly added requirement; however, financial assets that can cover any shortfall will also be taken into account).
    runamok · 1790525707 · focus · HN ↗
    Seriously. That's such a fuzzy number. Why not just say X yen? None of us have a crystal ball to tell us if our investments will make the traditional 8% interest or not.
  4. rrrrrrrrrrrryan · 1790474901 · focus · HN ↗
    > “ive me your tired, your poor, > Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, > The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. > Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, > I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
    The U.S. was founded as a nation of immigrants, and has a cultural history of being exceptionally immigrant-friendly (compared to other nations), especially with regard to immigrants without much means.
    I don't believe other nations have any obligation to follow this example. On the contrary, they should be able to set whatever immigration policies make sense for them. But this model of letting in poor immigrants, letting them do the work that nobody else wants to do, and letting their kids become net contributors, does seem to have benefited the U.S. greatly over the past few centuries.
    matheusmoreira · 1790477217 · focus · HN ↗
    I dunno... 1790 Naturalization Act says only white people could become citizens. Sounds like they were friendly towards immigration from very specific countries.
    Roosevelt's 1915 Americanism address also reveals this:
    <a href="https://www.gutenberg.org/files/68152/68152-h/68152-h.htm" rel="nofollow">https://www.gutenberg.org/files/68152/68152-h/68152-h.htm
    He says americanism "is a matter of the spirit and of the soul". In the very next paragraph, the so called "hyphenated americans" are condemned. The examples used: German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English-Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian-Americans, Italian-Americans. The implication is only the souls of white europeans could become americans.
    This stuff only really went away after the 1965 Hart-Celler Act.
    rrrrrrrrrrrryan · 1790480583 · focus · HN ↗
    I mean yes, obviously: the nation was founded with a giant genocide of native peoples.
    I do imagine original white people were perhaps more keenly aware of the fact that this land was not originally theirs, and that other people should be let in and given a fair shot, even if they're poor.
    I was merely making the argument that U.S. immigration policy has historically not been very classist (even if it was immensely racist), and not caring about the wealth of the incoming immigrants has worked out immensely well for the country over its lifespan.
4. reliabilityguy · 1790449369 · focus · HN ↗
  > That goes well beyond simply making sure that people are able to care for themselves.
  I am not sure in understand the issue, if Japanese want this, what’s the problem?
  1. autoexec · 1790449910 · focus · HN ↗
    Just because some people want something that doesn't suddenly make it reasonable or wise. In this case it's a problem for many already successful people living in Japan currently who will be forced to leave. It's also a problem for Japanese companies who have hired those people or who want to attract foreign talent to positions that pay well, but don't typically leave someone fabulously wealthy compared to most of the people living around them. It's also a problem because the policy is coming in at a time of increased xenophobia and overt racism and while this policy is likely to reduce the total number of foreigners living in Japan, it's unlikely to address the problems people have with the foreigners who will remain, and it could actually make those problems worse.
    zulux · 1790452811 · focus · HN ↗
    It's their country. They can do what they want as long as they don't start another war.
    autoexec · 1790453846 · focus · HN ↗
    I don't think anyone plans on trying to step in and intervene, but I hope people also don't shy from talking about how foolish this move is, the problems it won't solve, the problems it's likely to cause, and the people whose lives are being negatively impacted by it.
    ihsw · 1790459458 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    rayiner · 1790469634 · focus · HN ↗
    Why don't you trust the Japanese to know wha they're doing when it comes to their own society? After all, they're the ones who built an amazing country everyone wants to visit!
    drunner · 1790470606 · focus · HN ↗
    Because the yen is weak is a big reason why visiting is appealing. Its also a big reason why their population is dwindling.
    The govt is just trying to point fingers at foreigners to hide their weakness. I think recently they made a big deal about foreign owned real estate then quickly forgot about that talking point when their own study showed it equated to something like .05% of their total housing.
    rayiner · 1790471682 · focus · HN ↗
    That’s not the point I’m making. Japan is clearly a wonderful society, seeing as how many people want to visit and immigrate. Why not trust the people who built that society that they know what they’re doing?
    Scharkenberg · 1790495621 · focus · HN ↗
    > Japan is clearly a wonderful society
    I don't think so.
    > seeing as how many people want to visit and immigrate.
    That's true for Qatar and UAE too. Wonderful societies.
    [deleted] · 1790515227 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    free_bip · 1790461194 · focus · HN ↗
    If you think this is true then you simply lack the creativity to understand how bad domestic laws can get.
    Tiktaalik · 1790479448 · focus · HN ↗
    you're on a discussion forum. The point is to discuss things. Why are you being such a scold about what we're allowed to talk about.
    duhher4 · 1790461310 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    rustystump · 1790462239 · focus · HN ↗
    Ya uk for the white and america for the whites and Israel for the jews? right right?
    It isnt Japan for the Japanese it is a racist bigoted country staying racist and bigoted.
    The tired line of giving Japan a pass because idk maybe anime? is well, tired. If they want to be racist, they can be but it is what it is. And yes saying your country is only for people who were born with a particular racial make up is racist. Iran is less racist than Israel even if i dont like their culture.
  2. kurthr · 1790449929 · focus · HN ↗
    Something must be done, this is something, we must do it!
    Just because something can be done doesn't make it good for the society. Japan has a shrinking population and is currently dependent on immigrants for low wage work. Plenty of actions can make the current problem worse and have unintended consequences. Whether they happen or not is a political question, not a moral one.
    Who determined "what they want?" Did you want your government to attack Iran? Are you responsible for it? Why not?
    zug_zug · 1790450520 · focus · HN ↗
    That's their problem to solve however they want, if they want. The population shrinking by some large percentage doesn't seem to be inherently bad to me, and probably is good.
    It's so laughable to me when people say "BUT THE SHAREHOLDER VALUE!" when we talk about things like the important life trends of millions of people.
    turkey99 · 1790450793 · focus · HN ↗
    For Japan, shrinking population will mean an aging population with no one to care for them.
    duhher4 · 1790461466 · focus · HN ↗
    A people can recover from that, though. That's not an existential threat. They may be in for hard times, but they will survive.
    Can the same be said of all the populations importing millions of foreigners to prop up "muh GDP"?
    Aeolun · 1790464359 · focus · HN ↗
    > A people can recover from that, though
    Absolutely. They’ll just go through a period of a bunch of social workers discovering a new corpse every three days. Whole towns dying because there is nobody to maintain the public services. The people will get exactly what they were asking for, and they’ll die for it.
    PorciiVorbesc · 1790469850 · focus · HN ↗
    >and they’ll die for it
    I've yet to meet people immune from the inevitability of death, via the immigration policies of their country.
    What exactly was your argument here? Because I'm not seeing the downside in what you wrote.
    kurthr · 1790470940 · focus · HN ↗
    Your response reminds me of The Onion:
    <a href="https://theonion.com/15-000-brown-people-dead-somewhere-1819564956/" rel="nofollow">https://theonion.com/15-000-brown-people-dead-somewhere-1819...
    mikem170 · 1790464481 · focus · HN ↗
    A few generations ago they were enslaving people [0]. This is what racism can lead to. Maintaining their heritage, their way of life, some would say.
    Hopefully their population decline doesn't hit them too hard. But that, and their lack natural of resources, could lead to bad things. Fascists and their ilk thrive in such situations.
    [0] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Japan#World_War_II" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Japan#World_War_II
    rayiner · 1790470393 · focus · HN ↗
    Not if we have robots and AI.
    reliabilityguy · 1790473442 · focus · HN ↗
    > Just because something can be done doesn't make it good for the society.
    In this case the consequences will make people to elect a better government next time and try better ideas. Democracy at work.
  3. bamboozled · 1790461626 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    jdw64 · 1790463123 · focus · HN ↗
    I agree, but unfortunately, looking at the news from Japan, far-right support rates are higher than one might expect.
    So it's true that those in power are harming innocent people in order to maintain their power, but it's also true that Japanese people believe they are being harmed by foreign immigrants.
    And some of it is actually true. Of course, conversely, there's also the problem of many Japanese companies hiring Southeast Asian workers at low wages and mistreating them.
    But whether it's me as a Korean or Japan, both tend to have a certain authoritarian mindset instilled based on "ethnic" identity. So one aspect of this policy is "we only welcome rich foreigners who spend money and leave," and the media responds accordingly.
    Strictly speaking, if you look at these policies strengthening restrictions on foreigners from a third-country perspective, you can see them from the angle of far-rightization. That is, sanctions against outsiders for the sake of internal cohesion[1]. But considering the severe aging population in Japanese industry right now, it's effectively cutting off one's own nose to spite one's face.
    However, East Asians receive a somewhat different education from you, so that's how it is.
    The real cause is the failure of Abenomics and the resulting weak yen, which benefits financial companies and exports but sacrifices the Japanese people—the incompetence of the regime is the problem. But because it's hard to grasp all of that complex background, people want to attack something else that's near them.
    And also, because the morality of some underdeveloped countries (I know it's an example...) differs from that of developed countries, friction often occurs. Just as the sense of time differs between agricultural regions and cities, for instance.
    [1]<a href="https://csrda.iss.u-tokyo.ac.jp/socialresearch/pr/26PressRelease_2.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://csrda.iss.u-tokyo.ac.jp/socialresearch/pr/26PressRel...
    andrekandre · 1790471316 · focus · HN ↗
    > The real cause is the failure of Abenomics and the resulting weak yen
    i think you are right, there is a lot of over-tourism (and from some places 'rude' tourists that are really aggravating to people) but that is also being caused by weak yen in the end...
    whats the saying? everything is downstream from economics?
    carlosjobim · 1790464202 · focus · HN ↗
    There is nothing cruel about it. Nobody has been forced to go and live in Japan.
    Barrin92 · 1790465110 · focus · HN ↗
    telling a person that has build a successful life after eight years, is assimilated and speaks the language and can support themselves that they have to leave on completely absurd conditions that virtually nobody could meet, including native citizens, is cruel by just about every definition of that term.
    Those people have only ever paid in, have much better options than Japan at this point economically given how far the country has fallen behind, and the logical terminus of this is basically being some kind of ethnic chauvinist second world clown country.
    If you're even turning skilled tech workers and law abiding people away your immigration problem is solved by virtue of being poor in another 10-20 years. Japan fell below replacement fertility in the 70s, 35% of the population is over 60, good luck caring for those tens of millions of people about to retire.
    throwaway2037 · 1790495260 · focus · HN ↗
    > they have to leave
    No one is forcing them to leave. They can continue to live and work in Japan on their current visa, and renew it. Japan is simply raising the requirements for permanent residence using the traditional ten year path. To be clear, there are numerous paths to permanent residence that are much easier than the traditional ten year path. (Your favourite LLM can tell you all about it.)
    > completely absurd conditions
    The new requirements are not this. In short: (1) modest Japanese language requirements, (2) more pension (or personal) savings, (3) higher salary.
    > If you're even turning skilled tech workers ... away
    They are not. As I understand, Japan does not limit the number of skilled visas, such as engineer, humanities, or manager. Also, many of those foreign tech workers will make more than 10M JPY per year and can easily qualify for something called the "Highly Skilled Professional" (HSP) visa. Depending upon your "HSP points", you can get permanent residence after one or three years without any of the other requirements.
    The real issue is the people who have lived and worked in Japan for a long time, but don't earn large salaries. Japan is basically closing the door for permanent residence for those people unless they marry a local. My hot take: I am OK with closing the door for those people. They are basically earning a lower middle income. I'm not sure Japan wants or needs to have those people as permanent residents. However, they are free to live and work here as long as as they want. After they finish working, they can return to their home country. No one is taking that away.
    > good luck caring for those tens of millions of people about to retire.
    They will do it by expanding their existing (enormous) technical intern programme. There are already many low(er) skill foreigners working in elderly care.
    bamboozled · 1790552784 · focus · HN ↗
    > No one is forcing them to leave. They can continue to live and work in Japan on their current visa, and renew it.
    Totally wrong, people who were eligible for the business manager visa are no longer elgibile with zero warning or grace period granted, so yeah, total BS. If you built a business here, that's been destroyed if you don't have enough money to quality for another business manager visa.
    What about the people who have worked for 10 years , paid all their tax, not broken the law, but don't have 30 years worth of money to live on, do you think they should be rewarded with the rejection of a PR? On what grounds is that fair?
    I get the feeling you either have zero connection to Japan, or you do live here and are married to a Japanese, so you're happy to see the ladder get pulled up because "you're ok".
    The damage will be hard to fix because once Japan does realize they want foreign workers, they won't come back.
    throwaway2037 · 1790613255 · focus · HN ↗
    > people who were eligible for the business manager visa are no longer elgibile with zero warning or grace period granted
    To be clear, they can continue to run their business for the duration of their visa. It is not an immediate order to leave the country. That is a false statement.
    You are right that a significant change was made to the business manager visa. Old rules: 5M JPY was required as "minimum capital". New rules: 30M JPY is required. The primary reason for the change was to close a loophole that many mainland Chinese used to get a business manager visa to move their family to Japan. (There is no group of people less liked by Japanese people.)
    I agree: They should have added a carve-out for legitimate small businesses. Alternatively, they should have created a programme to lend money at a reasonable interest rate and X years to become compliant. There are many non-Japanese restaurants that are run by first generation immigrants from South Asia, Southeast Asia, and East Asia. However, the actual number of small businesses that have been "forced to leave" as a result of this change are as yet unknown.
    There were a few very noisy folks that the mainstream media reported about over and over. However, they should try to borrow money from friends, family, or a bank. Personally, I contacted one of them via WhatsApp to offer to lend money to make the 30M JPY requirement, but I never heard back. After that, I assumed that they were "blowing smoke" (bullshit). Interestingly, for all the ones that were very publicly complaining about the changes (that I saw), none of their businesses have closed. I guess they made it work.
    > 30 years worth of money to live on
    I won't repeat myself here, but I answered that concern here: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49864179">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49864179
    > What about the people who have worked for 10 years , paid all their tax, not broken the law, but don't have 30 years worth of money to live on, do you think they should be rewarded with the rejection of a PR? On what grounds is that fair?
    The financial situation of the Japan central gov't is the same or worse compared to ten years ago. They don't want to grant permanent residence to people who are less than middle class. It is very likely that these people would consume in public benefits during retirement far more than they ever paid into the system. I think Japan is being financial prudent about what foreigners they allow to "stay forever". So, yes, I agree: They "pulled up the ladder", economically speaking.
    Another myth of the traditional (my term) ten year permanent residence route: It is not guaranteed to be granted even if you followed all of the known and public rules -- good salary, paid all taxes (incl social), no traffic violations/arrests, etc. They look at your integration into Japanese society. If your Japanese language is poor, they frequently reject. If you are unmarried, they also frequently reject. If you belong to no civic orgs or never volunteer, they also frequently reject. If you don't have multiple personal recommendations for PR from Japanese citizens and/or other PRs, they also frequently reject. There are many, many Reddit and blog posts about such rejections.
    Finally, have these changes affected you? You seem very emotionally charged in your posts about the matter.
  4. wat10000 · 1790462501 · focus · HN ↗
    We’re not allowed to have opinions?
  5. Aeolun · 1790464123 · focus · HN ↗
    > I am not sure in understand the issue, if Japanese want this, what’s the problem?
    The problem is I’ve built my life here and they keep treating foreigners as a lesser life form. People here can unironically be standing next to me bitching about foreigners. Then turn to me and say something like “not you, you are fine.”
    swat535 · 1790464549 · focus · HN ↗
    Clearly Japanese feel like they don't want immigrants or want very few of them, which is fine.
    With these laws, they are pushing 99% of people out while saving face from being called racists.
    I think every country should have a right over their borders. Japan wasn't built on multiculturalism like United States or Canada, so I'm not surprised.
    That being said, I would probably think twice about traveling to Japan as a tourist.
    usernomdeguerre · 1790465426 · focus · HN ↗
    I disagree, it's not fine.
    matheusmoreira · 1790470673 · focus · HN ↗
    United States wasn't exactly built on multiculturalism either.
    Laws dating back to 1790 restricted naturalization to white people, which arguably makes the US a sort of white ethnostate from the very beginning. This stuff only really went away after the 1965 Hart-Celler Act, and repealing that act appears to be an objective of the american right wing as of 2026.
    It really made me question whether it was possible for a third worlder like me to ever become an american.
    rendang · 1790466812 · focus · HN ↗
    You are a guest in a home that belongs to others. You're not entitled to their indefinite hospitality
    matheusmoreira · 1790469763 · focus · HN ↗
    Plenty of foreigners are in fact quite rude towards their new hosts though. It can and does bring out the worst in people, and I can't say I blame them.
    The whole idea of naturalization is to assimilate into the new culture and become one of them. Far too many people just don't put in the effort to do that.
    refurb · 1790486020 · focus · HN ↗
    That's the risk you run immigrating to another country.
    I immigrated to another country and I went in eyes wide open knowing that at any point I might have to pack up and head home. In fact, it became far harder to immigrate only a few years after I did. Likelihood is that if I hadn't come when I did I never would have been able to.
    It took 10 years to finally become a citizen, but I did so the first day it was an option (yes, I counted down the days and sent in the application on day 1), because I knew it was the only way I could safely assume I'd never be forced to leave.
  6. makeitdouble · 1790464546 · focus · HN ↗
    It would be fine if it was a well documented recurring issue that plagued society. As is it, it feels more like a canary in the coal mine, for dirtier times to come.
    In practice, most visas are short term, and none of them will allow you to benefit from social aids for very long. At most I imagine you could extend your working visa to 5 years, get sick the first year and be at charge for the remaining 4 years ? There will be ink spent on these cases, but statistically how often does that even happen to need stricter laws ?
    The current political climates needs the gov to look "Japan First" and these kind of rule change are very cheap to do, especially as the people directly impacted don't vote nor can complain. It goes well with the very anti-foreigner sentiment, especially as the current wave of tourists is very unpopular despite the money coming in.
    The longer view is Japan getting less workers in total, yet more of the worse immigrants as they're calling for people who either don't need Japan (have enough money to go anywhere and don't need to think long term) or are willing to take more risks (high return grifts etc.), in a time where Japanese salaries and productivity are already lower than surrounding countries.
    They're basically making a bad situation worse, just for short term political play, giving in on the worse trends.
5. eudamoniac · 1790453452 · focus · HN ↗
  That seems completely sane and I am happy for the people of Japan that they get to enjoy such a law.
6. internet2000 · 1790459851 · focus · HN ↗
  They don't want to risk someone coming for a job, getting fired and becoming a drain on the social safety net. Able to care for themselves not just now, but for a while. It's a reasonable position.
  1. QGQBGdeZREunxLe · 1790460254 · focus · HN ↗
    If they can't find a new job in 30 years then there are larger problems.
  2. dgellow · 1790460265 · focus · HN ↗
    That’s the case for every western country, and none ask for enough money to cover 30y of life. That’s way, way above the goal you mention
    jeeeb · 1790479764 · focus · HN ↗
    And Japan isn’t either. They are requiring that by the time you retire you’ll have paid at least 30 years into the pension system or have equivalent financial resources any gap.
  3. jwrallie · 1790464810 · focus · HN ↗
    To qualify to long term residence means that they worked for years and contributed with taxes during that period, so it’s only fair that they get protection in case they happen to lose their jobs.
    For the government, the cost for any worker in the same circumstances would be the same. On the other side, the foreigners cost less to the government overall when they were educated and raised elsewhere.
    I’m not saying you are wrong, just that the previous rules are already in place in that very direction, and the changes are being placed instead to please and gain political support.
  4. rainsford · 1790465667 · focus · HN ↗
    That's not how good risk analysis works. You also have to consider the alternative that you exclude someone coming for a job they excel at while becoming a net benefit to society just because they couldn't support themselves in an eventuality that didn't come to pass.
  5. anigbrowl · 1790467406 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
7. simonsarris · 1790460622 · focus · HN ↗
  The more welfare you have, the better of an idea this is. An aging country especially cannot afford to risk more wards of the state.
  > and have enough money banked to live off of for 30 years
  It's a confusing guideline but this isn't accurate. You need to show an expected future pension (could be savings) equivalent to a salaried worker who paid into an employee's pension for 30 years. That's strict, but there will probably be a bunch of ways to show that.
8. qurren · 1790461030 · focus · HN ↗
  Yeah also
  > applicants for permanent residency will need to show that their annual household income exceeds the Japanese average
  This just seems like they're encouraging companies to treat foreigners better than locals, instead of just treating everyone the same.
9. bamboozled · 1790461410 · focus · HN ↗
  It's not about being reasonable, it's about having a good reason to kick basically everyone out who isn't 100% Japanese, or who has enough money to prop up their aging population and get almost nothing in return.
10. rayiner · 1790462931 · focus · HN ↗
  > That goes well beyond simply making sure that people are able to care for themselves.
  That’s not the standard. The standard is making sure someone is really a huge contribution to the society such that it offsets the burden of immigration.
  1. boelboel · 1790465873 · focus · HN ↗
    I wonder how big the population of people that know enough Japanese, would be a huge contribution to Japanese society and wouldn't be able to get a better deal somewhere else really is. Can't imagine it's more than a million people. And putting in the effort seems quite futile as you could lose your status at any point in time for political gain.
    Of course it's Japans decision.
11. bigstrat2003 · 1790463075 · focus · HN ↗
  The 30 years thing is insane for sure. Making more money than the average might be insane, it depends on how much more (which I didn't spot in the article, maybe I missed it).
  1. andrekandre · 1790471670 · focus · HN ↗
    the other issue is, there are lots of people who work and help out in the countryside where cost of living (and hence wages) are very low and forcing them to be above the whole average of the county is a bit onerous i think.
    probably a better idea is average for the prefecture they live in, but i guess they want to simplify things or discourage ppl from moving to the countryside? idk; most people are in tokyo/osaka to be sure...
12. e2le · 1790463562 · focus · HN ↗
  > requiring everyone to be richer than the average member of the population
  In the UK, only 47% are net tax contributors. I can't find what the same statistic is for Japan. I don't believe it's wrong for there to be an expectation that they be a net contributor.
  1. PorciiVorbesc · 1790463996 · focus · HN ↗
    >In the UK, only 47% are net tax contributors.
    47% of what? Of the immigrants coming in the UK are net tax contributors?
    e2le · 1790464496 · focus · HN ↗
    47% of individuals live in households that are net contributors.
    <a href="https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/theeffectsoftaxesandbenefitsonhouseholdincome/2024" rel="nofollow">https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal...
    > Across the UK, 53.3% of people lived in households that were net recipients in FYE 2024. This means that they lived in households that received more in benefits (cash and benefits in kind) than they paid in taxes (direct and indirect).
    y-curious · 1790465076 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    TheOtherHobbes · 1790466462 · focus · HN ↗
    The situation is skewed by the fact that 3.1 million people receive in-work credit because pay is so poor.
    It's a straightforward subsidy for employer profits.
    nicoburns · 1790470427 · focus · HN ↗
    There are also 13.2 million pensioners. That's close to 20% of the population.
  2. cromka · 1790464073 · focus · HN ↗
    Most countries need both VAT and income tax to fund their budget. Importing well off immigrants means they subsidize the VAT part only and likely do not generate income from Japan salaries. This is basically same problem as with digital nomads: they use the infrastructure which they do not fund proportionally compared to regular citizens.
    Am I missing something here?
    zmgsabst · 1790468709 · focus · HN ↗
    Dollar multipliers and sources.
    A digital nomad is still economically positive when a) their money circulates locally, eg at cafes and restaurants and b) comes from outside the region. That’s because they’re bringing wealth generated elsewhere (ie, at their employer) into the region.
    While you’re correct the state misses out on income taxes, they get taxes on further spending, eg, when those digital nomad supplied dollars are used to pay wages at the cafe.
    Not specifically about digital nomads, but Amazon used to estimate their salary dollars induce $2.5 of additional local economic activity — as Amazon employees bought from local stores, the store employees did in turn, etc.
    PorciiVorbesc · 1790470325 · focus · HN ↗
    >when those digital nomad supplied dollars are used to pay wages at the cafe
    Nations whose economies depend on foreign tourist coming to spend their money there, are some of the worst developed out there, have a disproportionately high low wage sector, and some of the highest wealth inequalities out there with the lowest opportunities for upwards mobility. Basically a dutch disease. Nobody wants their economy to be like that if they can avoid it.
    Countries aren't gonna be improved by you moving to buy 2$ lattes there while you gentrify the locals in the process and making life more expensive for them, trapping them in perpetual indentured servitude catering to the digital nomad/tourist industry with little to no possibility of moving up the value chain. The only ones who will be happy you do this will be landlords and business owners in the hospitality industry but no developed economy is built with those two as its pillars.
    Developed nations want an export economy of products and services aided by imported skilled workers to stay as long term residents and contribute in income taxes, not in latte purchases, and maybe even become citizens so they can become eligible for the draft in case shit were to hit the fan. Digital nomads are like locusts by comparisons, they come to treat your country like and amusement park in a race to the bottom while the going is good, but leave at the slightest inconvenience if now the 2$ latte is 3$ because the impoverished country next door sells it for 2.50$.
    myaccountonhn · 1790481846 · focus · HN ↗
    > Digital nomads are like locusts by comparisons, they come to treat your country like and amusement park in a race to the bottom while the going is good, but leave at the slightest inconvenience if now the 2$ latte now has to be 3$ due to increased labor protections, when the impoverished country next door sells it for 2.50$.
    This assumes they come just to geoarbitrage. Many actually do actually want to experience a country for its nature, food, culture, people etc.
    TFNA · 1790486412 · focus · HN ↗
    I work remotely/seasonally while traveling the world to learn local languages, learn about traditional culture, see nature out away from cities (I'm a bikepacker), etc. It is rare that I meet other digital nomads interested in those things; the vast majority really do come just to geoarbitrage. When I meet other foreigners deeply invested in the specifics of the country, they are more likely to be students, pensioners, or the independently wealthy, not DNs.
    myaccountonhn · 1790487356 · focus · HN ↗
    That doesn't match my own experience. I also personally dont work remotely to geoarbitrage, so that makes two of us.
    Maybe depends on where you choose to go?
    cromka · 1790505279 · focus · HN ↗
    > While you’re correct the state misses out on income taxes, they get taxes on further spending, eg, when those digital nomad supplied dollars are used to pay wages at the cafe.
    This only works to some extent, because, again, you can't subsidize budget with VAT only. And a person who is a bona fide employed immigrant still pays more tax in place of "just" a nomad.
    Sorry, but your logic is flawed here.
    zmgsabst · 1790535681 · focus · HN ↗
    They don’t get VAT only, but also income taxes on wages to support that activity and additional rounds of VAT.
    Yes — people who emigrate to work there pay more in taxes, but they generally also consume more: the job they’re working displaces a local, they benefit from social medicine, etc. Digital nomads bring jobs from elsewhere to spend locally, while not benefiting from (eg) local healthcare or schools.
    cromka · 1790548507 · focus · HN ↗
    > They don’t get VAT only, but also income taxes on wages to support that activity and additional rounds of VAT
    They would get the same wages earned on the workload surplus coming from employed immigrants in place of nomads. That's the whole point discussed here.
    nikau · 1790506267 · focus · HN ↗
    Sounds about right, buying all those gatorade bottles to piss in adds up
  3. rightbyte · 1790464169 · focus · HN ↗
    That stat is bogus though when used in this context. The least payed workers contribute the most to every day life of society in my opinion and pay the least tax.
    kevhito · 1790465454 · focus · HN ↗
    If we consider outright slavery, would that statistic count a slave as a "non-contributing" member of society? After all, they must be fed, and housed, but pay no taxes. What a burden they are!
    rightbyte · 1790962220 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes.
  4. johnnyanmac · 1790464268 · focus · HN ↗
    I do. It's like needing a credit check to get a job. It's a horrible death spiral: Japanese jobs can decrease wages from more supply, which can out you under the line, which makes it harder for you to contribute to the economy.
  5. Gigachad · 1790465372 · focus · HN ↗
    Isn’t this just a reflection of wealth inequality though? A “net negative” tax payer is just working a job that makes one of the net positive payers richer thus still bringing in more income for the country.
    rendang · 1790466333 · focus · HN ↗
    Or, you know, they live off of welfare without contributing to the surrounding society in any way.
    techno-beetle · 1790466627 · focus · HN ↗
    The idea that 53% of people live off of welfare without contributing to society in any way seems pretty far-fetched.
    pojzon · 1790467238 · focus · HN ↗
    But is populists wet dream
    bluefirebrand · 1790468231 · focus · HN ↗
    What percentage of immigrants being dependents on welfare would you consider reasonable?
    throwitaway222 · 1790470359 · focus · HN ↗
    0
    Gigachad · 1790471822 · focus · HN ↗
    You've missed the original point. Someone can be working a job and realistically pulling their own weight, but the system we have distributes that money to the owners and investors, who then pay tax and give some part back to the worker through welfare.
    The country is better off having this person even if they are receiving welfare. Of course that's not the situation for all people on welfare, but the idea that the top percent of earners are doing all the work while the majority of people sit around getting stuff for free is obviously untrue.
    sellmesoap · 1790468386 · focus · HN ↗
    I think I heard a crazy high number for how many in the u.s. use foodstamps? 12.3% according to this: <a href="https://usafacts.org/answers/how-many-people-receive-snap-benefits-in-the-us-every-month/country/united-states/" rel="nofollow">https://usafacts.org/answers/how-many-people-receive-snap-be...
    techdmn · 1790469290 · focus · HN ↗
    That doesn't necessarily mean recipients are unemployed. It could mean taxpayers are subsidizing low-wage employers through public assistance to their employees, with a minimum wage that hasn't increased since 2009.
    throwitaway222 · 1790470338 · focus · HN ↗
    And in some communities it's 90% and collected by people driving BMWs.
    sellmesoap · 1790481738 · focus · HN ↗
    Haha reminds me of the postal worker hinting that a lot of welfare cheques go to some affluent neighborhood in Vancouver. The business owns the house and the Lexus!
    kelseyfrog · 1790469833 · focus · HN ↗
    The fact that we're assuming the tax code is correct and that humans are faulty for not measuring up to it is wild.
    sva_ · 1790468836 · focus · HN ↗
    Depends how much of a burden you are to the social systems, if they exist in that particular country.
13. skissane · 1790464856 · focus · HN ↗
  > requiring everyone to be richer than the average member of the population and have enough money banked to live off of for 30 years seems insane
  It isn't that hard to have above-average income – around 40% of Japanese workers do.
  I think "a pension pot equivalent to 30 years of payouts" may be much more challenging to meet, however.
14. RajT88 · 1790467887 · focus · HN ↗
  Let's see how it works out for them. Screwing around with immigration on the precipice of a population crash seems like... Not a great idea.
15. freetime2 · 1790469166 · focus · HN ↗
  > requiring everyone to be richer than the average member of the population and have enough money banked to live off of for 30 years seems insane
  It would be insane for a country that is already dealing with an overburdened social welfare system to grant permanent residency to someone who is, say, 60 years old and doesn't have any savings or pension income to support them in retirement.
  1. torben-friis · 1790470556 · focus · HN ↗
    That's fair, but the stereotypical immigrant isn't near retirement. Positive migration tends to be related to youth, and it's hard to imagine that this will work for most.
    Which, fair, it's their right to close the door fully, but lack of immigration and a greatly aged population sounds like a recipe for collapse.
    freetime2 · 1790470866 · focus · HN ↗
    The requirement is that your projected pension benefit, at your current income level, needs to match the average pension benefit for someone who worked for 30 years. And if you don't meet that requirement, whatever shortfall you have can be offset with an equivalent amount of savings.
    It does not mean that you need to have 30 years of savings right now. Just that you are on track to get there by the time you retire.
    There are a lot of people who won't qualify (and while it certainly sucks for people affected, this is by design) - but those who earn more than the Japanese average should generally qualify.
16. throwitaway222 · 1790470232 · focus · HN ↗
  It's their country, can't they do what they want?
  The basic premise is absurd on its face that a country should ever be expected to even allow immigration especially if it does not want it.
17. maxlin · 1790481731 · focus · HN ↗
  It's hardly insane, it's exactly the kind of rule all immigration should have. On side of the host country, to benefit all.
18. throwaway2037 · 1790493477 · focus · HN ↗
  > have enough money banked to live off of for 30 years
  You misunderstand. The Mainichi wrote it better: "Applicants would also be required to have projected pension benefits equivalent to those payable after 30 years of enrollment in the employees' pension program at their income level. If the projected pension benefits fall short, they will be allowed to cover the difference with their financial assets."
tremon · 1790448756 · focus · HN ↗
> Applicants will also be required to have a pension pot equivalent to 30 years of payouts.
Does this take into account the amount of pension a person would still generate under Japanese employment, or will this immediately disqualify anyone under 40?
1. SenHeng · 1790450576 · focus · HN ↗
  The actual regulation has a carve out for if you have assets of equivalent worth.
2. Aeolun · 1790465567 · focus · HN ↗
  That’s like 12 x 30 x ¥35000 = 12600000 yen. ＄84000. I don’t know about others, but I consider myself pretty well off and I do not have that kind of money.
  1. subtextminer · 1790468711 · focus · HN ↗
    That's too low. The National Basic Pension is around 60,000 yen per month and with traditional employer part on top (not everyone has it), it's 140,000 yen/month. I would think a foreigner immigrant would need to bring the equivalent of $160k in a retirement savings account or similar.
    Aeolun · 1790468957 · focus · HN ↗
    I very much doubt they count any employer pension toward that because people that get that don’t need the money themselves.
jdiaz97 · 1790448884 · focus · HN ↗
there goes my dream of being a gaijin :(
lazyasciiart · 1790449217 · focus · HN ↗
This is certainly going to conflict with their moves to make it easier to attract aged care workers to the country. Perhaps all the elderly people are expected to patriotically look after themselves?
<a href="https://unseen-japan.com/foreign-elderly-care-workers-japan/" rel="nofollow">https://unseen-japan.com/foreign-elderly-care-workers-japan/
1. Magi604 · 1790449724 · focus · HN ↗
  They're banking on robots with advanced AI brains to take care of them.
  1. boelboel · 1790463111 · focus · HN ↗
    Notoriously they have been since about the 90s ...
  2. rrrrrrrrrrrryan · 1790475185 · focus · HN ↗
    This is not a joke - they're actually banking on this.
  3. bamboozled · 1790553736 · focus · HN ↗
    So they will be replacing themselves with robots then? It's either foreigner workers or robots, either way, the average Joey Japan doesn't end up with any more money in their pocket.
2. appreciatorBus · 1790449893 · focus · HN ↗
  [dead]
  1. wk_end · 1790450312 · focus · HN ↗
    Japan, notoriously a country with an immigration policy that could in good faith be described as "unchecked".
    throw-the-towel · 1790450636 · focus · HN ↗
    You don't have to make every mistake yourself in order to learn from it.
    PorciiVorbesc · 1790461478 · focus · HN ↗
    This. The Japanese people have made up their mind on the "migration for cheap labor" topic based on their experiences they saw in Europe.
    happytoexplain · 1790450797 · focus · HN ↗
    Exactly - they choose not to commit that mistake.
    tokioyoyo · 1790465193 · focus · HN ↗
    It’s the rate of increase in immigration, which makes it harder for a country to “take it in and give room for assimilation”. Same problem in Canada, and a good chunk of pathways have been rolled back.
    It’s not a simple issue, but very obviously citizens of countries where immigration rate has gone through the roof aren’t happy. Also the usual hatred starts when low income immigrants move into the country, as they’re more likely to work in public-facing jobs (markets, hotels, etc).
    donbox · 1790467384 · focus · HN ↗
    Agree, those in public facing roles are hated the most.
3. maxgashkov · 1790489403 · focus · HN ↗
  These are not in conflict. The recent changes make almost impossible for a low-wage worker in the elderly care sector to get permanent residence and hence become a "burden" to society longterm, but on the other hand, specified skilled worker visa (SSW) program expands even more. The gist of it is that the worker can come and work for a specific industry (in reality it almost always means specific company) for a 5 years max and then fuck off back to their country.
  I shit you not, this is the plan.
  1. polotics · 1790490171 · focus · HN ↗
    Wow and care workers expected to be submitted to this vampiric scheme are expected to provide hood care? How naive can the japanese be?
    maxgashkov · 1790490769 · focus · HN ↗
    They are not naive, they are malicious (to be clear: I'm not generalizing towards all Japanese, just to the ruling majority). Following is only my speculation but I guess the plan is to use short-term workers until promised breakthrough in AI and robotics closes this need altogether.
    Voultapher · 1790502297 · focus · HN ↗
    Watch them learn the hard lesson that automotive companies had to learn with self-driving. The progress looks amazing at the start but those last few unnegotiable percent hide most of the work. Hands are incredibly dexterous, we don't have comparable tech let alone affordable enough to outcompete cheap immigrant labour. Maybe they can automate elderly care fast enough, but it's one heck of a gamble.
    totetsu · 1790520451 · focus · HN ↗
    It is a gamble, and they are basing the policy positions on like a RIETI Technical Paper about the ARI, or automation risk index.. Which underneath is based on a bunch of surveys of "experts" to give a number on how automatable, specific actions are, then breaking up a job into a list of actions, and scoring the job for the ARI.. But the methodology that those experts used to make up the numbers is entirely undocumented.. and the assumption is that a whole job, can be automated if all its actions can.. and that a whole .. business and workplace, can just be switched, economically to an automated workflow, without any consideration of how it all has to integrate into everything else.. and other non-automated parts..
    polotics · 1790539334 · focus · HN ↗
    This is hilarious. thank you? do you have any URLs and such? Totally priceless involuntary comedy from these `experts`!
    totetsu · 1790581453 · focus · HN ↗
    It shouldn't be too hard to find with google.
  2. naishoya · 1790658268 · focus · HN ↗
    As for the SSW plan, there are two tiers to the program. Have you actually worked here on a SSW, or just heard about it by rough description?
    SSW1 is a max of 5 years, non renewable. Somewhat similar and somewhat different from TITP (training) allows a path to SSW1 readiness and completion of TITP qualifies workers without testing for SSW1, SSW1 is intended to prepare workers for SSW2, which requires documented work and a test.
    After 3 years employment as SSW1 (or two years if workers role includes supervisory management and is documented properly) every SSW1 worker is eligible to take a single test for SSW2. The SS2 visa is also a 5 year max but is RENEWABLE indefinitely. This isn't 'permanent residency' but a rolling work visa with it's own eligibility.
    Now, if a worker cannot acquire the proficiency to pass the SW2 test before 5 years is over; then perhaps they should return, because they do not seem to be studying the job they are engaged in and not engaging in becoming more proficient in helping their employer's business grow. They may remain at the same job with the SSW2 visa, continue at the same pay, and perform the same work; so there is no motive for their employer to make obtaining the SSW2 visa difficult other than that they may regret having that employee after seeing their work ethic and output.
    However the SSW1 and SSW2 visas do not lock you into a single employer. Workers are free to quit and/or find another place to work, are eligible for unemployment if your employer fires or lays you off not-for-cause, and have 90 days to get new employment in either event (quit or fired) with significant systemic assistance (HelloWork among them) for finding a new employer.
    The 'specific' company aspect is for the initial application for SSW 'eligibility certificate' but workers are eligible to work for any employer from day one of their visa issuance. Yes, these SSWs are industry specific, as the tests for each type of 'specific skills' is independent and unique, but one can take additional, different industry tests while in country on one kind of SSW1 visa and then apply for 'designated activities' to engage in cross industry work, and this would allow continuation of SSW1 without moving to SSW2 by reapplication for 'eligibility' in the second industry at the end of the 5 year non-renewable SSW1. Some industries have more applicants than allowed visas, some industries never get over about 30% of the needed SSW1/2 workers.
    It is not predatory, does not take advantage of workers who are diligent and studious. It certainly is not a route to work-play in a bar and doing casual part time host work. It is for serious workers in specific high need fields who may otherwise lack degrees and professional work experience which would qualify for the higher level visas.
    Framing it as abusive or predatory is to not understand the system at all. The principal guardrails are actually on the applying employer, with strong requirements for a third party (Registered Support Organization) to make sure that the work conditions and terms are safe and honest, pay and compensation rates are not lower than standard for natural employees, participation in insurance, tax, retirement, and banking are proper, access to safe clean housing and other necessary social needs are met, such as Japanese language study, social integration and participation ~ neighborhood regular clean up, and local matsuri festival invites.
    Sidebar - The clean up might sound like work, but is a time to meet and socialize with your neighbors and be seen as a participant who 'helps out'. There is usually so little actual trash that it's more like an Easter egg hunt than anything else - find a discarded nicotine-gum wrapper or a smashed plastic bottle if you're lucky - my last clean up day we didn't get even half of an office waste-bin worth for the whole block among 20 plus people over 45 minutes. But I do meet new people almost every time and have become 'old acquaintances' to others. In the event of an earthquake or other natural disaster, these are the people you will probably be with, so it's best to build some friendship just in case, if for no other reason.
    In general, the citizens and communities all over Japan are some of the most welcoming, appreciative, and encouraging places anywhere. Yes, Ive checked. I have been to, lived in, and have family who live in or have lived in North and South America, Southeast Asia, Polynesia, Scotland (Shetland), England, Western Europe, the Middle East and Central Asia. They all seem to agree with my assessment, Japan is the nicest and most livable place of all, at least for me and my wife.
    Yes there are particular difficulties and established 'why cant it be easier' aspects to life here, and even the locals will admit to consternation abut some rigid formalism, but on the whole it is a wonderful place to live and work. The further one gets from the middle of Tokyo and Osaka the gentler life is, period. Get more than half an hour by bus or car away from a Shinkansen station and it's a very different worldview, that 99.5% of foreigners never see. I highly recommend it, even if it requires learning to speak some Japanese to get by. They are so surprised by anyone who would make the effort and travel off the main path to see the place.
    郷に入ってば郷に従う Go ni ireba Go ni shitagau "When in Rome, do as the Romans"
    maxgashkov · 1790660723 · focus · HN ↗
    ^ this is the best example of a Stockholm syndrome I’ve ever seen, congrats
    maxgashkov · 1790663301 · focus · HN ↗
    I have worked for a company that employed workers via TITP and then via SSW programs, I have been a part of the volunteer expat support groups that regularly dealt with the immigration issues, including the ones with the SSW program.
    Look, on one hand I'm glad that it worked out for you, that you had enough work-life balance to study and get certified for the SSW2 program and you're content to stay on it until you're physically unable to work anymore or somehow find a way to qualify for a permanent residence under the new guidelines for both you and your wife.
    On the other, the story is full of caveats:
    - company hiring in that sector has to be well-managed and well-behaved (oversight is often superficial compounded by the fact that in a lot of cases, the hiring company and the employer-of-record are actually 2 different entities);
    - you have sufficient time and energy to skill-up after work, especially if it's physical labor;
    - you have sufficient funds to skill-up;
    - in case you need to change your job, you're not in distress from the current employer or financially.
    I don't know what your cultural background is. In my worldview, these programs are inhumane. Humane variant is this: if you (collective "you", Japan) deem the person worthy of coming here and changing the bedpans of your elderly when none of the Japanese youth wants to do it for the same salary, you get the fuck out of the way unless this immigrant breaks your laws, and at that point you deport them. But if they come here and obey your laws they should have the reciprocal security in their old age, not conditional on how well they test on JLPT and for sure not conditional on unrealistic expectation of earning significantly more than an average Japanese worker.
    P.S. Socializing is nice. You can still go and pick up the non-existent trash when you're on a Eng/Intl/Humanities visa and even on PR. Just saying.
    naishoya · 1790667471 · focus · HN ↗
    Valid point, workers must be careful what companies they choose to work for.
    Abuses will exist wherever oversight is insufficient.
    Planning to remain in Japan after reaching the age of 'no longer able to work' is a condition that permanent resident visa, if the proposed changes actually occur and persist, may no longer provide. Given that, then contributing to the national retirement/pension plan and preparing for naturalization would seem to be the proper route to that long term expectation of reciprocal security.
    If the job pay is 'lower than a Japanese worker would accept' then that does indeed classify as abuse of the SSW1 designated rules. As they have been explained to me by legal council, SSW1 rules state explicitly that employees must receive at least as much pay as would cost for a local laborer, in order to not depress local labor values.
    If this is the condition that you or persons known to you are working in, that is a reason needed for a change in employment.
    A JLPT test is not typically part of the SSW2 requirement, at least for the industries I have studied the test material for, but the tests are in Japanese at about JLPT4/3ish level. Each tests specific vocabulary (the kanji portion) are very specific and one can focus on learning the necessary content which is a much lower threshold than JLPT3, but studying for that does become dependent on the work-life balance aspect. Clear communication with an earnest and fair employer is important for establishing that; and it sounds like you are having some difficulties with this side of things. That is unfortunate.
    I don't have any magic tricks for not getting taken advantage of; but know that it appears your experience with the SSW1 is not necessarily typical of the program as intended, and there may be some alternatives to feeling trapped or not valued in the long term here.
    Is your 登録支援機関 (tōroku shien kikan) Registered Support Organization an active participant in the necessary oversight, or have they effectively been rubber-stamping the actions that have led to this situation?
    That was where I was leaning on the socialization aspect. The RSO has some responsibility in making sure SSW workers are aware of the scheduled community building events in order to facilitate socialization and acculturation - these can always be done independently, but there's an obligation to facilitate these for the RSO.
    Having active opportunities to interact (again work-life balance) can be a big help in working toward fluency, which I feel should be a goal for anyone planning a long term habitation in any country. In Samoa this is fa'asamoa, "Fesili muli mai ia mua mai" when arriving follow who came first, the "When in Rome do as the Romans" and in Japanese 郷に入ってはば郷に従う go ni iteba go ni shitagau.
    If there is anything you think I might be able to do to help, I am willing to try. もし手伝う事があれば遠慮なくネ
    maxgashkov · 1790758289 · focus · HN ↗
    I appreciate your offer but I have always been on the Eng. SOR and I have PR for quite some time now, so all these changes do not concern me immediately. What I argue is that the whole program is riddled with avenues for abuse and very little recourse for a worker. And I have seen first-hand accounts of such abuse and I try to tell you that your positive experience does not invalidate the shortcomings of the SSW visa.
    naishoya · 1790777022 · focus · HN ↗
    I see. This further confirms what I have long observed. It's almost like there are two Japans; the hectic borderline hostile-to-general success big city, and the rest of the country where everybody generally is trying to help each other out. So I do get your point. There is plenty of room for abuse in the TITP / SSW visa, and these abuses do seem to be happening at scale where black companies contract with RSO to find and supply a stream of workers to one organization which then are subcontracted out. It's deplorable behaviour.
    It isn't obvious that the SSW program itself is designed with abuse as an intended outcome. I also don't get the strong sense that these changes to the PR process, at least what actual documentation is on <a href="https://www.moj.go.jp" rel="nofollow">https://www.moj.go.jp, are going to have much real impact other than prompting those with a real long term commitment to life in Japan to look more closely at the naturalisation process and possibly motivate SSW1 workers to be more serious about upskill to SSW2.
    Because SSW1 time no longer applies to the 10 year PR eligibility (which can be shorter with "contribution to Japanese society" <a href="https://www.moj.go.jp/isa/content/930003503.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.moj.go.jp/isa/content/930003503.pdf), this makes staying at SSW1 for longer than 2-3 years a bit wasteful if the goal is PR.
    Perhaps there is some room in this system for well-managed RSOs to take a more active role in helping current SSW1 employees take the necessary steps to prepare for transition to SSW2 and perhaps this kind of action is something that rural townships should look at as a mechanism to improve their local workforce options.
    I wonder if there's any employers in your extended network who could gain from having access to workers already holding SSW1 visas with 2+ year remaining on visa and helping prepare those workers for SSW2 testing and retention along with long-term work contracts. It would seem to be a real opportunity for companies struggling to meet production objectives due to labor shortages without the potentially high initial capital cost of finding those workers from abroad and the cost of turnover and training that come from short term new workers.
    I'm just kinda thinking out loud here; it seems to me that where there are avenues for abuse which appear to offer little recourse for the workers, then there may be an avenue to offer that recourse and in turn benefit from the ready capability and earned loyalty of those workers. Sure, your bed-pan example is a worst case job scenario, but that field of SSW is not restricted to only bed-pan level work, and surely there are companies who need quite a range of ready workforce for many tasks that would fit the same visa which can pay a decent wage for skilled labor which are not 'black companies'.
    I'll try to introduce some of this into the discussions at my next informal soudan kikai. The shiyakusho team heree has been great at facilitating the network of contacts and interested parties which has enabled our current opportunities, and been very involved in every step from the moment we showed interest in living out here in the 'inaka'.
4. nutjob2 · 1790510194 · focus · HN ↗
  > Perhaps all the elderly people are expected to patriotically look after themselves?
  I think that a lot of them feel they should patriotically starve to death.
  <a href="https://www.deseret.com/2007/10/12/20046650/starving-man-s-diary-shocks-japan/" rel="nofollow">https://www.deseret.com/2007/10/12/20046650/starving-man-s-d...
  1. naishoya · 1790663612 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
5. boelboel · 1790523934 · focus · HN ↗
  Not Japan but Korea has awful elder welfare, highest rate of suicide among elderly. Around 1/1000 men over 80kill themselves each year.
jfewhfuehg · 1790449329 · focus · HN ↗
[dead]
1. tock · 1790449796 · focus · HN ↗
  Do you dislike south asians?
  Edit: no-one is upset by what you said lmao cmon. Just clarify what you are really trying to say.
  1. [deleted] · 1790450997 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
  2. kyleee · 1790452966 · focus · HN ↗
    What exactly are south Asians? Serious question
    tock · 1790453321 · focus · HN ↗
    Generally Indians.
    happytoexplain · 1790455500 · focus · HN ↗
    India, Pakistan, and a few smaller countries.
  3. happytoexplain · 1790456100 · focus · HN ↗
    They are unfortunately the most common example of (subjectively) bad immigration policies seen first-hand among tech folks in the West (I.e. people likely to be on HN). The parent was obviously referring to this fact sarcastically. It's a tech trope.
    tock · 1790481421 · focus · HN ↗
    But tech folks being immigrants is one of the immigration policies that have objectively been a massive success. South Asians in tech are very highly paid and very low on crime if you look at the stats. As opposed to whatever Canada and Europe is doing. I understand the trope though(I've seen the miserable dudes on teamblind). I just don't understand who is the ideal immigrant anymore?
2. classified · 1790449942 · focus · HN ↗
  You make it sound like something nefarious and criminal.
3. asciii · 1790450285 · focus · HN ↗
  > Tech became the greatest trojan horse for south asian immigration.
  Weird take, are you against upward mobility? Would you not take the same opportunity in their position?
  1. happytoexplain · 1790450623 · focus · HN ↗
    Not the parent, but yes, of course I would. But letting anybody do anything that would benefit them is of course not reasonable.
    tock · 1790451241 · focus · HN ↗
    > But letting anybody do anything that would benefit them is of course not reasonable.
    Who is talking about letting anybody do anything? The parent is talking about people working in tech as a means of upwards mobility. Is that not reasonable?
  2. jfewhfuehg · 1790457640 · focus · HN ↗
    Nope, go become a doctor. How many people do we need writing PHP?
classified · 1790449699 · focus · HN ↗
> public sentiment towards immigrants sours
I'm not up to date with Japanese news, does anyone know the reason for that?
1. flamethrower123 · 1790450621 · focus · HN ↗
  The immigrants create a lot or trouble.
  1. gozucito · 1790463002 · focus · HN ↗
    You know what creates 100 more trouble than immigrants ? Japan’s birth rate.
    You know who have babies? Immigrants.
    You know who pays social security for peuple when they get older ? Those grown up babies.
    Do the math. Japan has much to teach the world but the most important lesson they are now teaching, is that people are stupid, easily manipulated, excessively xenophobic and absolutely happy to shoot themselves in the foot repeatedly if it means not admitting they’re wrong. In Japan, in the US, in Europe and elsewhere.
    Dumb dumb humans…
    miroljub · 1790464045 · focus · HN ↗
    And yet, according to available statistics, there's no a single western country where Muslim and African immigrants are not an additional financial burden. Even if we forget about safety, crime, ...
    Gander5739 · 1790503384 · focus · HN ↗
    > according to available statistics
    I appreciate you basing your argument in statistics, but if you have them to hand, could you link to them?
    miroljub · 1790507925 · focus · HN ↗
    :)
    If you have problems finding it just ask the AI. But you should avoid companies controlled by the pro immigrant elite.
    Gander5739 · 1790512668 · focus · HN ↗
    Thank you, that comment told me everything I wanted to know.
    miroljub · 1790522073 · focus · HN ↗
    Care to explain?
    whtmaisdas2 · 1790470160 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    embeng4096 · 1790484550 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
2. dgellow · 1790461735 · focus · HN ↗
  Racism, xenophobia, amplified by social media and far right political parties. It’s not too different from the dynamics we’ve seen in the rest of the western world
3. totetsu · 1790515856 · focus · HN ↗
  Global right wing parties are connected by strategy sharing institutes. Souring sentiment towards immigrants is part of the playbook of these political movements. Minor parties in japan picked this up and ran hard with it and started to pick up votes, so the incumbent party shifted that way too. I think it's ultimately all part of shifting social norms towards deregulation and privatisation.
flamethrower123 · 1790450083 · focus · HN ↗
I’m not Japanese, but have family ties to Japan. I frequently compare USA (where I am at now), Japan, and my home country (lets say X).
I think one of the reason why Japan is considering doing these is because a lot of people with specific cultural religious, and ethnic backgrounds are really causing a lot of trouble. They cause a lot of trouble even in my home country where they are the majority (I am an ethnic minority).
I’ve heard anecdotes from my Japanese friends and families and really, its bad. And these people refuse to assimilate, but want to conquer instead.
However, targeting specific racial/religious/ethnic minorities are generally frowned in the modern world, so Japan just create a more “acceptable” filter here to filter out people from these backgrounds, that is, wealth.
We can’t all go along and sing kumbaya to one another, although I personally want to. But the other cultures/ethnicities/religious backgrounds don’t want to.
Yes, I witnessed persecution and death before, managed to escape it when I was really small. this definitely color my perception regarding specific cultural/ethnic/religious backgrounds regardless whether I have a lot of good friends from said backgrounds.
This world is so cruel, and there are a lot of hurt in this world. We don’t need to make it harder. As an ethnic minority myself, I really really want everyone to just get along, but it really is impossible.
As a non Japanese foreigner myself. I welcome this change, even if that means I will never be able to be accepted there.
Only Japanese can take care of Japan. Period.
1. SenHeng · 1790450780 · focus · HN ↗
  The ones in the news lately are the Kurds which the police can’t touch because of some asylum law running various scrapyards, and the Vietnamese car theft gangs.
2. argee · 1790454238 · focus · HN ↗
  > even if that means I will never be able to be accepted there
  You need Japanese blood (visibly), culture (language, manner, custom), and nationality to be "fully" accepted. This isn't new and has more to do with Japanese people themselves than with any legal restriction.
  1. flamethrower123 · 1790455548 · focus · HN ↗
    I am fully aware of that.
  2. Aeolun · 1790465270 · focus · HN ↗
    Alternatively, we need 30% of the population to be foreign.
3. tavavex · 1790456335 · focus · HN ↗
  Can you name which backgrounds you/Japanese people are talking about?
  What confuses me is that Japan is not a very immigrant-heavy country. There's no chance of someone who doesn't represent the interests of native Japanese people being elected any time soon, or ever. So why can't they pass laws codifying the behaviors they want to encourage and ones they will treat as non-assimilation? Why aren't they doing something to address misbehavior directly, making newcomers to the country prove their long-term commitment to their new social and cultural environment, or punishing infractions more harshly so bad actors can't stay in the country? Why are the only two options available to them 'do nothing' or 'blanket punish all foreigners because all foreigners are trouble'?
  1. flamethrower123 · 1790456706 · focus · HN ↗
    It is part of Japan being Japan. Japanese being Japanese.
    Japan is a shame based culture. A lot of social norms are encoded as part of being Japanese and not strictly enforced. Japan has less lawyers per capita compared to US for example.
    Take a look at a lot of the influencers that are causing trouble in Japan. In the US we probably bludgeon (or shoot) those people on the spot and lawyers talk later, but Japan doesn’t do that, not even their police. Majority of Japanese just sit there silently but deep inside filled with disgust.
    Besides, once these laws are implemented, soon it will be obvious which groups are “targeted” and it doesn’t look good in the eyes of the international world.
    tavavex · 1790458541 · focus · HN ↗
    I know that Japan is a lot more implicit in enforcing its culture. But it is not a country that runs on honor alone. It has police, it has prisons, it has courts. The lawyer comparison doesn't tell me much because the US is a very litigious country in ways that go far beyond individual criminal law.
    Besides, the implication you made is that a lot of the actions people don't like are already illegal, just not tightly enforced. Especially if you say Americans would shoot the perpetrators on the spot.
    Even if they wanted to protect their status quo, they could only apply stricter requirements on residents who haven't received their citizenship yet. Law-abiding immigrants in most countries are used to having to clear higher bars than locals. But at least in this case this would be equitable, only punishing the people who actually do something wrong instead of everyone.
    majormajor · 1790460536 · focus · HN ↗
    Lawyers per capita results from a structural legal system difference not a "shame" difference. It has adversarial influences but is much less a lawyer-theatrics-dominated adversarial civil-jury-trials-for-all-sorts-of-things free for all.
    The US could avoid a lot of inefficiences if they adopted the same.
4. aceofspades19 · 1790460069 · focus · HN ↗
  Okay so which specific cultural religious and ethnic backgrounds are causing trouble and what empirical evidence do you have of this happening on a large scale? It can take many generations for immigrant family to assimilate into the host country's culture, how do you know they are there to conquer and not just taking time to assimilate? Why do you think only Japanese people can take care of Japan, do you hold this belief for other countries?
  1. majormajor · 1790460413 · focus · HN ↗
    If you broadly link the flavors of Christianity practiced in Russia and the evangelical side of the US I guess you could make a claim about white Christians causing a lot of trouble worldwide with military attacks on other countries...
    Go back to countries in the same religious/ethnic tree meddling in the Middle East in the early and mid-20th-century and you can link back a whole host more problems to white Christians!
    But the southern evangelical side of my family gets pretty upset whenever I point that out...
    zelphirkalt · 1790493661 · focus · HN ↗
    A nice history lesson and each religion has its extremists. Not for nothing that we had the crusades. We live here and now, though. We can learn from history, but need to judge how people behave today, and who is causing the issues where we live.
  2. mlmonkey · 1790461524 · focus · HN ↗
    If I were to guess, I'd guess it's Islam. I come from a region where we have a sizeable Muslim minority, and hardly a day goes by without some outrage or the other which hurts their sensibilities (ban calls for prayers? ban praying in the middle of the street during rush hour? serve bacon/ham in school lunches? etc. etc.); regardless of the fact that people have lived this way for millennia, and Muslims just showed up in the last few decades, but insist on bending the rest of the society to their norms.
    aceofspades19 · 1790493539 · focus · HN ↗
    I live in a region that has a lot of Christians and they constantly try to bend the local laws to follow their religious views, even where it could violate provincial and federal law. They have caused human rights issues in our local government. Is it fair that they do this just because they immigrated here a long time ago instead of fairly recently?
  3. conradfr · 1790461982 · focus · HN ↗
    > Okay so which specific cultural religious and ethnic backgrounds are causing trouble and what empirical evidence do you have of this happening on a large scale?
    Feigning to not know, is knowing.
    sethaurus · 1790470901 · focus · HN ↗
    > Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
    — <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html">https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    aceofspades19 · 1790492464 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm not going to go guessing what the OP meant, if you want to have a good faith discussion about something then you need to be specific. Anyone can make vague claims about people causing trouble, its meaningless.
  4. diob · 1790463896 · focus · HN ↗
    You're not going to get a serious reply. It's a fresh account, and their other comment is just "The immigrants create a lot or trouble.".
    The truth unfortunately just doesn't matter much these days.
    Folks read stuff online by people and just take it as fact without bothering to ask the simple questions that you have.
    copemaxxxing · 1790464667 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
  5. copemaxxxing · 1790464609 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
  6. anomaly_ · 1790464611 · focus · HN ↗
    Make an educated guess.
  7. Aeolun · 1790465164 · focus · HN ↗
    Since only 3% of Japan is foreigners, it can hardly be large scale.
5. QGQBGdeZREunxLe · 1790460341 · focus · HN ↗
  This sounds like social media driven hysteria. No evidence. No statistics. Just vibes pushed by those with a political axe to grind.
  1. lokar · 1790462015 · focus · HN ↗
    The same people are predicting sharia law in NYC any day now.
6. dgellow · 1790461163 · focus · HN ↗
  So, you’re okay being a xenophobe who support the existence of an ethno nationalist country
  1. BoingBoomTschak · 1790463135 · focus · HN ↗
    And you're okay using very flexible newspeak like "xenophobia" as a rhetorical bludgeon to shut anyone who doesn't want a slow genocide?
    aesthesia · 1790463638 · focus · HN ↗
    As if "slow genocide" isn't exactly the same tactic.
    dgellow · 1790520247 · focus · HN ↗
    Xenophobia is a perfectly standard term with a clear meaning. The comment I was responding to is fairly explicit about their xenophobia
7. [deleted] · 1790461250 · focus · HN ↗
  [deleted]
stock_toaster · 1790451599 · focus · HN ↗
In a time of declining globalism and growing[1] nationalism[2] and anti-immigration sentiment around the world, I think it is unsurprising that a historically[3] xenophobic culture would move in this direction.
[1]: <a href="https://thesociopedia.blogspot.com/2026/07/why-nationalism-is-returning-worldwide.html" rel="nofollow">https://thesociopedia.blogspot.com/2026/07/why-nationalism-i...
[2]: often used as a tool by oligarchy to shift blame away from themselves, instead towards vulnerable groups, as the cause of rising inequality and various institutional crisis
[3]: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Japan" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Japan
1. downrightmike · 1790454855 · focus · HN ↗
  Let's be honest, the Japanese gov't has killed off every generation since the asian bubble popped in the 90's. Those kids in the 90's that still can't get a job should be in their peak earning years and have strong talent skills, (and having kids) which was all sacrificed. They don't have the skills or tax base they should and they are unwilling to actually fix it because the stock market needs to crash big time and the rich need to pay for it.
  1. csa · 1790461253 · focus · HN ↗
    I completely agree with your comment about Japan killing every generation since the bubble popped. It has been wild to witness.
    The subtle but profound ways those generations have experienced being essentially abandoned by the government and “Japan Inc” will have a lasting impact on Japan for many decades to come.
    There are some leaders who actually grasp the problem and actually have decent ideas for solutions, but the will and capacity to execute those ideas just isn’t there.
iamEAP · 1790455666 · focus · HN ↗
I moved from the USA to Sweden about 6 years ago. Sweden has also been tightening its immigration laws, in ways I believe have been and will be detrimental to its future.
Countries have a right to change their laws, but I believe it’s in everyone’s interest for those laws to be changed while respecting principles of predictability and legal certainty.
People planned and rearranged their entire lives around immigration law in force at one point, perhaps 5 years ago, and now a new law is going into force that slams the door shut to having a basic sense of stability, with only a 6 month transition period. It’s cruel. And it sends a bad sign to anyone looking to move.
The USA can afford to be cruel because people will deal with it for high wages. Japan can maybe afford to be cruel because their cultural exports keep the top of their “talent attraction” funnel large. It’s economic suicide for any other small-to-medium sized nation dependent on foreign labor.
1. TMWNN · 1790460215 · focus · HN ↗
  >I moved from the USA to Sweden about 6 years ago. Sweden has also been tightening its immigration laws
  Context for others: Until 2026 Sweden had no language, income, employment, or skills requirement for citizenship. It now has some basic requirements in these areas.
  * 2025 citizenship requirements: <<a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20250315034218/https://www.migrationsverket.se/en/you-want-to-apply/swedish-citizenship/citizenship-for-adults/citizenship-for-adults.html" rel="nofollow">https://web.archive.org/web/20250315034218/https://www.migra...>
  * 2026: <<a href="https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Becoming-a-Swedish-citizen/Apply-for-citizenship/Citizenship-for-adults.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...>
  >in ways I believe have been and will be detrimental to its future.
  In completely unrelated news, Arabic is now the second most spoken language in Sweden after Swedish. <<a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20210511231225/https://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_popover.aspx?guid=7047637a-c5f5-4297-9afa-a273dd443a9a" rel="nofollow">http://web.archive.org/web/20210511231225/https://digitaledi...>.
  Also completely unrelated: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Sweden" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swe...
  1. angry_octet · 1790461736 · focus · HN ↗
    You are really dog whistling here. The changes which almost all agree on, like reducing migrant intake, have been leveraged by the far-right Sweden Democrats party to institute a purge against long term residents of Sweden, including totally law abiding, very Swedish proficient Swedish speakers. In general Swedes don't understand that high skilled migrants, like biomedical and professional people, are being expelled.
    This has included an absurdly inflexible agency which blames immigrants for mistakes outside of their control, and the full gamut of Kafkaesque rules. As a result, indigenous high tech industry is increasingly leaving Sweden in favour of EU neighbours.
    LtWorf · 1790463917 · focus · HN ↗
    As usual on this website: downvotes for factual information.
  2. duhher4 · 1790461854 · focus · HN ↗
    Oy vey, delete this. Diversity is your greatest strength.
  3. wat10000 · 1790462800 · focus · HN ↗
    What is the gap between the first and second most spoken languages in Sweden?
  4. LtWorf · 1790463855 · focus · HN ↗
    "Arabic" is hundreds of different languages.
    It's like saying "anglosaxon" and grouping english, german, swedish, danish, norwegian as one single language.
    poulpy123 · 1790467328 · focus · HN ↗
    You should tell the united nation, they seem to have missed the memo despite all the Arab countries being members
    SpicyLemonZest · 1790468045 · focus · HN ↗
    If English, German, Swedish, etc. shared a single prestige form, which all educated speakers understand and use for formal purposes, I think it would be reasonable and common to call them dialects of "Germanic".
    More generally, you'll drive yourself crazy trying to form an opinion of what a language "really" is independent of what the people who use it believe. Norwegian people can generally read Danish, and Danish people can generally read Norwegian if it's written in Bokmål, but Bokmål is only one of the two equally valid ways to write Norwegian. What's going on there? You can trample over the cultural context to impose some abstract definition of what's "really" a language, or you can accept that Norwegian is a language because Norwegian speakers say so and not worry too much about the metaphysical status of Nynorsk.
    LtWorf · 1790494054 · focus · HN ↗
    Anyway what he really really glossed over is that "Arabic" (or the Arabic languages as would be more correct) speakers will also speak Swedish.
    At the same time it is very unlikely that the English speaker will learn Swedish, so English speakers are more of a threat to Swedish than Arabic speakers.
  5. iamEAP · 1790499918 · focus · HN ↗
    I’m not sure I would consider $2k a month in predictable wages “basic,” as you say. If you live outside of the big cities, it’s quite an unnecessarily high bar to meet. If you work in industries where time-bounded contracts are the norm over “tills vidare” employment, it’s also basically impossible to satisfy.
    Beyond naturalization reforms, you also have the issue of minimum salary hikes for work permits (with no transitional rules), resulting in regular, integrated workers getting deported. 18 year old kids (of regular, integrated workers) getting deported, as well as regular, integrated workers being deported because they happened to come in on an asylum visa and then changed to a work permit (under a law that was revoked, again, with no transitional rules).
    Every time the lack of predictability and legal certainty for these people was an explicit choice.
    Swedes barely understand the cruelty that’s happening, let alone the damage it’s doing to Sweden’s reputation among globally mobile workers.
2. Joker_vD · 1790461011 · focus · HN ↗
  > It’s economic suicide for any other small-to-medium sized nation dependent on foreign labor.
  This such a baffling statement, honestly: that the flourishing economy crucially depends on foreign labour. What happened with the role of the technological know-how, and vast material (and financial) capital? The institutions? All of that is still not enough for prosperity unless you can hire a paperless José for $7.40 per hour, with an implied threat of handing him off to ICE if he raises any stink?
  1. dlisboa · 1790463126 · focus · HN ↗
    Most developed countries are quickly losing population. The ones that have a slight deviation from that trend is due to immigration.
    Foreign labor is what will keep most of these countries afloat for the following 50 years.
    Japan is a good example, they lose about 1 million every year.
    retinaros · 1790463950 · focus · HN ↗
    Most of developed economies dont need blue collar foreign labor in the future. Some dont even need it now. There are no industries in uk or france and this labor role is mostly to suppress wages (we ve seen it with brexit and english truck drivers) . For industrial nations like germany before they shot themselves you do need this labor until robots and automation makes them obsolete. Way before 50years and then being a nation with low immigration is becoming a key advantage for a country cohesion and future. Finally every country at 25% youth unemployment (like france and spain) shoould block all immigration beside highly skilled immigrants
    dlisboa · 1790464768 · focus · HN ↗
    Robots and automation won’t replace health care workers. Aging countries will need more of those.
    And the unemployed youth would be working those low skilled jobs today if they wanted to, fact is they don’t pay enough for them and if those jobs are automated away they will still be unemployed.
    It obviously suppress wages, which is a necessary condition for capitalism. Any country where it costs 10x to build infrastructure because there is no cheap labor will be less competitive.
    retinaros · 1790491786 · focus · HN ↗
    Healthcare robots will ve there in less than 15y. Also boomers are the wealthiest generation in history they can afford a native healthcare worker
    LtWorf · 1790493124 · focus · HN ↗
    Yeah the elon musk robots, sure.
    knlam · 1790481691 · focus · HN ↗
    This comment make no sense. You know a large portion of aged Japanese have to worked because there are shortage of blue collar workers right?
    retinaros · 1790491828 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes they are an industrial nation. Robots will replace blue collar immigrants
    Joker_vD · 1790533589 · focus · HN ↗
    Yeah, that's been the idea since the early 80s. They're still not quite there yet, 45 years later.
    retinaros · 1790540131 · focus · HN ↗
    have u been in an amazon fullfilment center? a byd factory?
    expedition32 · 1790491489 · focus · HN ↗
    In the Netherlands your house will be built by a Bulgarian and your dentist is from Ukraine.
    Xenophobia doesn't exist in the Netherlands we just hate everyone equally lol.
    LtWorf · 1790493076 · focus · HN ↗
    Lol. In Sweden almost no bus driver or helper for old people was born in Sweden, let alone builders.
    carlosjobim · 1790464808 · focus · HN ↗
    When a person migrates, I would believe that the origin country has one less population. So why is it good that this person props up population in the destination country instead of in the origin country?
    And why does the destination country need that persons labour and expertise, but not the origin country?
    If the native population is becoming exterminated with or without migration, what exactly is the "country" that needs to be kept "afloat"? Your stock portfolio? Your treasury bills? Your real estate investment?
    dlisboa · 1790465066 · focus · HN ↗
    It’s definitely a possibility that a country dwindles away and is happy to do so in order to avoid immigration. We’ll probably see that with Japan and South Korea by the end of this century.
    Ultimately it’s their choice.
    carlosjobim · 1790466905 · focus · HN ↗
    The fate of the native North Americans is one of the largest catastrophes in the history of humanity. Just as so many other times through human history when natives were displaced and replaced, whether by violent or non-violent means, or a mix of both.
    Immigration doesn't change the fact of natives dwindling away or not. A nation is the native people, not a name on a map. The exceptions are the United States and other new world ex-colonies. But there was a very dear price paid in blood and tears to make them.
    America has had almost no assimilation of immigrants into the cultures which existed there before. Very good arguments have been made that the Enlightenment (or Age of Reason) did originate from native North American ideas and ideals being brought to Europe through cultural exchange, but it's not assimilation on the part of the settlers.
    dlisboa · 1790467682 · focus · HN ↗
    > America has had almost no assimilation of immigrants into the cultures which existed there before
    That's almost a uniquely United States problem, not at all as big of an issue in most of the Americas. Only a few countries in the Americas have had their native population pretty much entirely wiped out without any assimilation whatsoever. The US is one of these few countries (Cuba and Hispaniola would be other examples of total replacement).
    The rest has had large degree of intermixing or wholesale population preservation. Aspects of native culture is those countries were suppressed historically but are still preserved in some way to this day.
    It's also very fair to say sovereign countries today can build a healthier immigration policy than 1500s Europeans with their extermination campaigns.
    polotics · 1790490521 · focus · HN ↗
    Interesting! Could you point us towards where the "Very good arguments have been made that the Enlightenment (or Age of Reason) did originate from native North American ideas and ideals" can be found?
    defrost · 1790491477 · focus · HN ↗
    The Native American democracy that the U.S. founders were most likely to know about was the Iroquois Confederacy.
    ~ <a href="https://theconversation.com/before-the-american-revolution-native-nations-guarded-their-societies-against-tyranny-242363" rel="nofollow">https://theconversation.com/before-the-american-revolution-n...
    and from other native groups you'll see many statements like:
    ~ <a href="https://collegefund.org/blog/democracy/democracy-is-rooted-in-native-values/" rel="nofollow">https://collegefund.org/blog/democracy/democracy-is-rooted-i...
    IIRC there's a lot of material about the North-North-American fur trade origins piggybacking onto existing Great Lakes and other regions trade networks with the French and the British picking up political and trade habits from those peoples.
    ( Not a scholar in the field, just a broad reader )
    carlosjobim · 1790506609 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes! In the book The Dawn of Everything by David Graeber and David Wengrow. It covers a lot of other things, especially pre-history, but the part about native American influence on the enlightenment they have a lot of sources for. At least I was convinced.
    Be aware that the book is a bit academically written and that they want to cover every base in each sentence instead of writing clearly to the point. So sometimes it is extremely interesting and sometimes frustrating and boring.
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dawn_of_Everything" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dawn_of_Everything
  2. cm11 · 1790466310 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm having a hard time following the thinking in many of these threads so I'm not sure if you're questioning it genuinely (or hypothetically or sarcastically), but I think essentially yes sadly.
    Wealthier areas wonder why it costs so much for house renovations or for daycare or`for farmer's market produce. Or similarly folks move to less wealthy countries as "expats" and hire help, babysitters, tutors. Sense of prosperity seems tied to those things feeling inexpensive and them feeling cheap requires income inequality. There's I think a large amount of feeling poor (or average) when those things are eating your budget. Even though you have them. For example, you pay for expensive childcare so both parents can work, it takes a big bite out of your budget, and so you don't feel wealthy (but you're paying for childcare and your family has an employee). Similarly, you're paying for expensive private school, it eats your budget, you don't feel wealthy (but your child is going to private school).
    For those doing well, the surplus goes to what's left—house, education, healthcare (I recall there being a fourth, but I'm blanking). Those things are expensive because they should be, you're wealthy. You're competing with the other wealthy people. I'm stealing this from somewhere, but they're essentially luxury goods—the more money you have, the more (and better quality) you consume. They don't decrease as percent of income as food does.
3. Qazpqaz · 1790464749 · focus · HN ↗
  You don't have a automatic right to live in another country in my opinion. I don't blame Swedes for slamming a door shut that has turned their incredibly safe country into the gun and bomb capital of Europe.
  1. andrekandre · 1790472959 · focus · HN ↗
    > You don't have a automatic right to live in another country in my opinion.
    its true, and thats how things are (legally anyways) but taking that further sometimes i wonder why its okay to freely move from region a to region b inside a country?
    wouldn't the same logic apply to people from say east germany moving to the west? or 'annoying liberals' from california moving to north carolina? yes they can add to the local tax base, but if we want to keep things fair we should probably move to restrict everyone to stay in their own places if thats the logic we are following... but maybe i'm not thinking deeply enough...
    rawgabbit · 1790563398 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
  2. myaccountonhn · 1790483686 · focus · HN ↗
    It's still an extremely safe country.
  3. rdtsc · 1790486762 · focus · HN ↗
    > turned their incredibly safe country into the gun and bomb capital of Europe.
    I learned it here some years ago. I don’t follow Swedish news. Someone or the article title mentioned “grenade attacks in Sweden”. I thought it was parody at first but it’s a thing somehow. Do they think immigration is what contributes? Someone said it was simply the city in question was at the border with other country that’s why grenades are a thing there…
    Qazpqaz · 1790611108 · focus · HN ↗
    It's mostly criminal gangs from other countries yes. Either from or linked to Turkey or Syria, with the largest being Kurdish.
  4. aix1 · 1790487135 · focus · HN ↗
    Oh wow, I had no idea so had to Google it:
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombings_in_Sweden" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombings_in_Sweden
  5. soundnote · 1790651219 · focus · HN ↗
    Recent election fraud, too.
4. [deleted] · 1790469955 · focus · HN ↗
  [deleted]
5. rdtsc · 1790486340 · focus · HN ↗
  > Japan can maybe afford to be cruel because their cultural exports keep the top of their “talent attraction” funnel large
  I am fascinated by others being fascinated with Japan (meta fascination?). It’s like this mythical land of milk and honey for some. I don’t get? It’s just another country amongst hundred others.
  1. throwaway2037 · 1790492466 · focus · HN ↗
    Their big cities are essentially a nerd heaven. Imagine Cyberpunk 2077, but very orderly. It is understandable why it is attracts more attention on HN than... say Amderstam or Jakarta.
    rdtsc · 1790525981 · focus · HN ↗
    Yeah out of all my acquaintances it's the most "nerdy" ones I guess who learned Japanese and wanted to either visit or visit and then live there.
vconnor · 1790456660 · focus · HN ↗
Anti-immigration laws: angry face
Anti-immigration laws, Japan: happy face
As usual, the meme is ever alive around these parts. Anything Japan does is heralded as a good move™ and no impartial discussion can be had without the weeaboos coming out of the woodwork to put a positive spin on it.
But sure, we’ll see if limiting these odious gaijin coming in will solve their stagnant economy, fertility crisis and obsolete business practices. Good luck with their isolationism, it’s not the first time they’ve gone down that path, all to appease the right-leaning imbeciles that blame the immigrant for their politicians’ ineptitude at dealing with systemic problems. It’s the same all over the world.
1. happytoexplain · 1790456880 · focus · HN ↗
  I see roughly the same ratio of agreement and disagreement as usual. And even if it is different, it's probably more due to the specifics of the case, rather than an internet meme. Based on your writing, it sounds more like you have a grudge against Japan, rather than everybody else having some kind of opposite bias.
zergrush · 1790459827 · focus · HN ↗
I just find it odd so many non-Japanese media and commentators weigh in on this.
Japan is not a multicultural country. You can't become Japanese through paperwork. It is very much through blood heritage, your language and cultural proficiency.
The bar to be Japanese is much higher than say Canadian or French. So why shouldn't they create laws that is aimed at benefiting themselves and their country without depending on foreigners?
Also if you have a business and you don't have $125,000 you are not going to make it in Canada or America either.
1. dgellow · 1790460110 · focus · HN ↗
  > I just find it odd so many non-Japanese media and commentators weigh in on this
  What is odd about it? People comment on every country immigration policies. Why would Japan get a special exemption
  1. xethos · 1790471088 · focus · HN ↗
    > People comment on every country [sic] immigration policies
    That's the world as it is, not necessarily as it should be. Not being a citizen of the country in question, or part of the culture, and most importantly, not being one of the people that deals with the consequences of whichever choice is made, means your opinion counts for so little as to be barely worth sharing
    joquarky · 1790477623 · focus · HN ↗
    So, who or what organization authorizes your opinions?
    xethos · 1790483790 · focus · HN ↗
    I didn't share mine on Japan, but my opinions on my country's immigration policy is based on having to deal with the long-term consequences, as every citizen of my country must
2. QGQBGdeZREunxLe · 1790460172 · focus · HN ↗
  > Also if you have a business and you don't have $125,000 you are not going to make it in Canada or America either.
  I had less than $10k to my name when I moved to Canada. I have done very well since.
  1. postsantum · 1790461463 · focus · HN ↗
    > I have done very well since
    How about Canada? Did it become better or worse since then?
    bluefirebrand · 1790469497 · focus · HN ↗
    I was born Canada. Lived here my whole life. I'm ~40ish years old
    It's absolutely become worse since the 80s
    I get a lot of shit from my fellow countrymen when I say it. Rose colored glasses, etc
    But nah. It's way harder to be successful here than it was even 20 years ago
    much-to-learn · 1790470046 · focus · HN ↗
    This is just true everywhere though.
    postsantum · 1790470929 · focus · HN ↗
    Not, it's not. Most of asian countries got better in the last 20 years
    andrekandre · 1790471892 · focus · HN ↗
    because of outsourcing?
    627467 · 1790471983 · focus · HN ↗
    And ironically, not Japan.
    QGQBGdeZREunxLe · 1790808137 · focus · HN ↗
    Name a few.
    Tiktaalik · 1790479921 · focus · HN ↗
    My ancestors were dirt farmers with absolutely nothing despite their health and work ethic that moved here in the 1930s. Do we think Canada is better than then?
    We really, really under value the impact of low income, low education immigrants imo.
3. Noe2097 · 1790461495 · focus · HN ↗
  It feels normal in a globalized world for commentators around the globe to observe and weigh in on the decisions of any country, especially one of such economic importance and cultural significance as Japan.
  That being said, I wholeheartedly agree on your points regarding Japan not being a multi-cultural country. And this, indeed, is rarely (if ever) mentioned in articles such as the one posted here.
  Japan is an island. It has always been and not just from a geographical perspective. Its very culture and history are ones of isolation. The restrictions are not new, the perspective "Japan first" is not new - these have always been there, they are at the very core of the nation.
  1. bamboozled · 1790462307 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
  2. mostlysimilar · 1790462349 · focus · HN ↗
    > Japan is an island. It has always been and not just from a geographical perspective. Its very culture and history are ones of isolation. The restrictions are not new, the perspective "Japan first" is not new - these have always been there, they are at the very core of the nation.
    That's not at accurate from what I know of Japanese history. You seem to be over-indexing on the (relatively) brief Tokugawa-era sakoku policy and ignoring the thousands of years surrounding it where Japan was an active importer of culture.
    Kanji, government structure, Buddhism, law, art and more were all imported from China and hugely influential in Japanese history. After the the Meiji Restoration, Japan explicitly set out to Westernize and went abroad to study European and American institutions, invited Westerners in to help build European-style banking systems and government systems, adopted Western clothing, architecture, military organization, legal codes, etc. etc.
    If anything the Japanese are masters at importing the things they like of foreign culture and then modifying to make it their own. They have always been imported of culture.
  3. LtWorf · 1790464012 · focus · HN ↗
    > Japan is an island
    So is Sicily… and yet it's quite diverse…
  4. zergrush · 1790466236 · focus · HN ↗
    There lies the thesis you pointed out. The point of these articles and coverage seems to be aimed at "Why isn't Japan multicultural yet, so racist!" which makes no sense. Japan has been inhabited by Japanese language, culture and homogeneous people for thousands of years.
    There is absolutely no need for Japan to become multicultural or any other country for that matter because not being multicultural isn't a fault or a sin.
    I don't know why so many in the West demand this on other countries. There's just something very unnatural and unrealistic and scary to expect a homogeneous country like Japan to suddenly start calling a clearly non-Japanese looking person Japanese. It's going to create huge problems for Japan that won't benefit it or its people by any measure.
    kmeisthax · 1790488868 · focus · HN ↗
    This is Ainu / Ryukyu erasure.
    Japan used to not have control over Okinawa or Hokkaido. Those were separate peoples that Japan invaded and colonized, along with Korea. They would have gotten to keep Korea too if it wasn't for those damned meddling Americans and their nuclear weapons, but there are still Koreans who have been living in Japan for generations. Even though Japan themselves said "you will never be like us, you will always be lesser, now grovel and grow us our cheap rice". This is multiculturalism, you just don't recognize it because you don't know what an Ainu is.
    Also, Japanese is basically permanently welded to the Chinese writing system. Japan considered removing kanji and kana in favor of romaji at one point during the Meiji era - which would have been a disaster on par with English spelling reform. But, even then, Japanese is like 10% English by weight and growing, with no actual attempt by anyone to stop this from happening.
    zergrush · 1790490048 · focus · HN ↗
    So Japan had minorities and borrowed writing system from other countries thousands of years ago mean they need to now erase their borders, redefine what Japanese identity is and become a full multicultural nation the likes of North America and Western Europe ?
    So if you eat sushi during Thanksgiving and are you entitled to Japanese citizenship too ?
4. gozucito · 1790463364 · focus · HN ↗
  Through blood heritage ?
  Explain why the blood is needed. Is it perhaps because Japan uses a different type of oxygen that needs different hemoglobin?
  1. rrrrrrrrrrrryan · 1790475065 · focus · HN ↗
    Dude ethnically Japanese people that were born in Japan, lived their entire childhoods in Japan, are no longer considered Japanese if they live outside of Japan for 5-10 years.
    People who have lived their entire lives in Japan, but are not 100% ethnically Japanese, will literally never be accepted as Japanese.
    zergrush · 1790490287 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm fascinated how little people know about Japan are seemingly the loudest in the room when it comes to deciding what Japan should do.
  2. nec4b · 1790533495 · focus · HN ↗
    Because that is how they want it. What more of explaining do you need?
5. famahar · 1790467488 · focus · HN ↗
  You literally can become a Japanese citizen through paperwork. Only other requirement is 10 years of residency (used to be 5) and fluency in the language. I don't even think there's a cultural test. Know a few people that went through the process and it's pretty simple, just tedious providing all the paperwork.
6. evilfred · 1790472317 · focus · HN ↗
  this is colloquially referred to as blood-and-soil...
7. Tiktaalik · 1790479815 · focus · HN ↗
  People criticize everything all the time. Why wouldn't people?
  I mean should we shut down hacker news? the whole point is discussing.
8. kmeisthax · 1790487545 · focus · HN ↗
  Permanent residency is about who can stay without having to worry about visas, while visas are about who is allowed to enter in the first place. Foreigners will still be in Japan, the only thing changing is that they'll be even more tied to a black company than before.
  The mental model most immigration-naive people have regarding immigration is that the vast majority of "desirable" immigrants go to a country to get a job, work for some years, and then maybe they get something called a "green card" (permanent residency) or something. The reality is that most employers can't legally hire immigrants, unless they go through a LOT of hoops, which is not worth it. So a handful of employers specialize in this, and because they spend money to control this corner of the labor market, the labor of the immigrants trades at a discount relative to citizen labor. This is literally the opposite of what the system's stated intent is, immigrants are not supposed to undercut citizens, but nobody with power cares about that. So legal immigration is effectively an indentured servitude scheme where you work the bottom tier of a job for some number of years until you can get permanent residency.
  What Japan is doing is, effectively, making the time you have to spend to get that reward a lot longer, and also disqualifying anyone less than 30 years away from retirement age unless they're rich enough to make up the shortfall[1]. This is primarily about empowering sweatshops (black companies) over imported workers.
  You think it's about preserving Japanese culture, but I, being a huge fucking weeb, know for a fact that nobody calling for this gives a shit about Japanese culture. Especially not the Japanese politicians. The kinds of cultural things most foreigners value are things Japan has been trying to throw away since the Meiji Restoration; while the kinds of things Japan's elite value are byproducts of having a rigidly ossified social structure that cannot absorb any amount of change.
  Like, for example... anime and manga? Foreigners like it. Otaku[0] like it. But Japan spent a decade trying to vilify otaku as mass murderers in training, and the people creating anime and manga haven't had much social prestige until recently. Hell, they still don't get paid very well.
  The famed Japanese politeness is downstream of social oppression. They are polite for exactly the same reason American Southerners are polite; a combination of elites imposing their values on the populace and the populace adopting social defense mechanisms against the elite.
  There is a narrative being pushed by ultra-rich elites. Think about how Mark Zuckerberg shifted from "we need to bring in insane numbers of H-1Bs to cover a labor shortage gap" to giving Trump shittons of money. Or how Elon Musk keeps talking about how we need as many women pregnant as possible. Or just the insane hardon that businesses have for robots and AI now. These all come from the same desire to keep wages down by creating a permanent underclass.
  The underlying problem with the labor shortage gap, both in Japan and elsewhere, is that you can't afford to have kids in the middle of a wage stagnation and cost-of-living crisis. Japan has been in this crisis for so long that their population is decreasing, but every other rich country is not far behind. The root cause is that businesses cost-optimized people's welfare out of the economy, and they need people to be a renewable resource.
  There are a few ways to fix the problem, but closing countries off to immigration is not one of them. Actually, if you wanted to break the hold sweatshops have on immigrant labor, you'd want to open the fucking floodgates and let the market close out the labor arbitrage opportunity we've been keeping open ever since the WTO made free global trade a thing. If the globalists are allowed to move goods through 20 countries to hyper-optimize their labor spend, then I should be allowed to move to whatever country has the highest wage for my given specialty to counteract that behavior. The problem is that this solution has transitional effects that would be unacceptable to the masses of people whose primary form of social power is the fact that they have a red and gold passport and the guy at the counter of the local Lawsons does not and never will.
  [0] There is a minor difference in the meaning of the word "otaku" between Japanese and English. In Japanese, it just means "nerd" and you can be an otaku of anything. The meaning imported into English was specifically "anime-and-manga otaku".
  [1] I'm also told by the AI midwit I had critique this comment that black companies commonly fuck up your pension payments, which would also make you have a shortfall.
skeledrew · 1790461294 · focus · HN ↗
Doesn't seem they're really aware that they're something of an endangered "species". Although technically they'd still be endangered even if they open up seriously, as then there's heightened possibility of bloodline dilution. I wonder sometimes if that'd be a good or bad thing in the long run: loss of that which makes them pretty unique vs blending more with the world.
1. walrus01 · 1790461734 · focus · HN ↗
  > heightened possibility of bloodline dilution
  In my experience, born/raised in Japan, domestic Japanese people have a very different reaction to local "Hafu" people where one of their parents is a Caucasian person from the US, UK, AU, NZ (or similar), vs "other" countries.
  <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C4%81fu" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C4%81fu
  1. skeledrew · 1790463019 · focus · HN ↗
    Colonial mentalities carry on for decades.
    Macha · 1790467439 · focus · HN ↗
    I mean, Japan's experience with colonialism was decidedly on the colonist side: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperit...
    walrus01 · 1790469436 · focus · HN ↗
    That, and things like being an enthusiastic and early customer of British industrial/steam powered equipment in what we would broadly call the Victorian era. The early Japanese pre-dreadnought and dreadnought class battleships, for instance, were a clear descendent of British designs. Railway stuff as well. Lots of things that weren't British origin were American.
    walrus01 · 1790469163 · focus · HN ↗
    I have a personal unscientific theory that some of it, domestically within Japan, is as simple as a heightened degree of racism towards people with darker skin color.
    skeledrew · 1790471083 · focus · HN ↗
    From research I've learned that placing a high value on blending in is a cultural thing. There's the resulting good, like the focus on harmony which promotes good relationships (and is a major contributor to the low crime rate), and there's the bad, like spurning those who look/speak different (I've heard stories from a few who went to visit seeing signs that gaijin aren't allowed in certain establishments, etc).
    walrus01 · 1790471708 · focus · HN ↗
    > (I've heard stories from a few who went to visit seeing signs that gaijin aren't allowed in certain establishments, etc)
    I've heard stories more specifically that certain type of gaijin were allowed in certain gaijin-suspicious establishments (US/UK/Canadian tourists), while their counterparts of Indian, Bangladeshi descent were not.
2. coralreef · 1790461882 · focus · HN ↗
  “Bloodline dilution” is only a thing if you believe your race is superior.
  1. throw93038383 · 1790462441 · focus · HN ↗
    Not rally, Israel has the same DNA as local native population (same race), but is paranoid about cross breeding.
    It is just hate.
  2. skeledrew · 1790462903 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm pretty sure there are many non-Japanese who're attracted to Japanese primarily because of their homogeneity.
    coralreef · 1790465368 · focus · HN ↗
    You mean western dudes who fetishize/exotify eastern women?
    zergrush · 1790467095 · focus · HN ↗
    Korean men and Japanese women make up the biggest share of international marriages in Japan so there's something more going on here that makes Japanese women highly desirable to men in general.
    coralreef · 1790526489 · focus · HN ↗
    2016 <a href="https://www.nippon.com/en/features/h00174/" rel="nofollow">https://www.nippon.com/en/features/h00174/
    ~70% of int'l marriages in Japan are Japanese men + foreign brides.
    Of the women marrying foreign husbands, 25.7% Korean, next is 16.7% American, then 12.5% Chinese.
  3. stainablesteel · 1790462954 · focus · HN ↗
    or if you just care about your race, which is a normal thing to do
    it's an extended family of sorts
    coralreef · 1790465022 · focus · HN ↗
    If the extended family incorporates other races, does it stop being extended family?
    stainablesteel · 1790533998 · focus · HN ↗
    there's a difference between an individual family changing its composition because it has an interracial marriage, and an entire country needing to do so just because they've taken in immigrants
    coralreef · 1790698149 · focus · HN ↗
    why would the entire country be "needing" to change its composition?
  4. whtmaisdas2 · 1790470308 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
3. duhher4 · 1790462361 · focus · HN ↗
  It seems they are very well aware. They've probably seen what happens to other "endangered species" (eg. the English or Swedes) when the floodgates are opened by treasonous bureaucrats chasing votes, economic metrics, or appeasing their destructive oikophobia.
  1. LtWorf · 1790464084 · focus · HN ↗
    What happened to the swedes? I'm in sweden right now and there's no zombie apocalypse or anything weird going on…
    retinaros · 1790495971 · focus · HN ↗
    One of the thousands of changes <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombings_in_Sweden" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombings_in_Sweden Or <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden
    LtWorf · 1790508102 · focus · HN ↗
    Now compare those with any USA town and you won't even see a pixel on the chart.
    The rape definition in Sweden is extremely broad. If you had read your own link you'd know <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden#Unreliable_data_for_cross-national_comparison" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden#Unreliable_data...
    retinaros · 1790514724 · focus · HN ↗
    and for the bombs? its also a pixel on your chart? a pixel that didnt exist before right?
    LtWorf · 1790525248 · focus · HN ↗
    Where is the comparison with USA link? You are so full of links and yet miss that one? How odd…
    retinaros · 1790527502 · focus · HN ↗
    I dont care USA it had mass immigration from the third world for decades before sweden. Compare the numbers of bombs and crime between sweden and japan/korea to see something interesting
    LtWorf · 1790545360 · focus · HN ↗
    Isn't japan the country where you can kidnap and torture and kill a woman and not go to jail?
    Yeah i think they have low crime because of their interesting definitions of what a crime is.
jdw64 · 1790461619 · focus · HN ↗
It seems like a difficult problem to me, since there's no right answer.
LePetitPrince · 1790462433 · focus · HN ↗
[dead]
flumpcakes · 1790463204 · focus · HN ↗
Hot take: I think immigration and multiculturalism is going to be the the biggest and the defining issue of this century. The history books will have "AI" and climate change in the margins as 'exacerbating factors'. We've started to see it in the US, and we're beginning to see the start to it in the EU. Japan--rightly or wrongly--might be averting a future disaster here. Japan is lucky in that they are still a very homogeneous society, and also unlucky in that they are ahead of the curve in population decline. I think the western world is in for a bad time over the next 50 years.
1. retinaros · 1790463333 · focus · HN ↗
  There are Ceuta like events of a smaller scale every day at every border of western europe. Dont need to wait 50 years. Not a single european voted for this. French people also voted no to a european economy but those who seized power didnt care
2. raziel2701 · 1790463657 · focus · HN ↗
  What disaster is Japan averting?
  1. jeremycarter · 1790464188 · focus · HN ↗
    "they took our jobs!"
    b0rtb0rt · 1790466860 · focus · HN ↗
    more like “they didn’t follow the rules and destroyed our nice society and dumped garbage everywhere”
    russelg · 1790477975 · focus · HN ↗
    We're talking about people who have gone to great lengths to set up their life in Japan, doing everything correctly. Not tourists.
  2. flumpcakes · 1790464843 · focus · HN ↗
    I don't think there's a limit to the animosity people feel (rightly or wrongly - what's "correct" has no bearing on people's feelings) and we will end up in a place where previously unthinkable force or actions are now permissible due to nasty politics. The US is getting a small taste of that now.
    I don't think it takes much imagination to connect the dots... it wasn't that long ago in European history where people were systematically eradicated by the millions.
  3. poulpy123 · 1790467439 · focus · HN ↗
    The current news in the middle east are showing what happens when unregulated immigration happens without assimilation
  4. throwawayfifo · 1790469870 · focus · HN ↗
    Demographic suicide.
3. didibus · 1790471521 · focus · HN ↗
  Isn't that the story of the US since birth? It seems immigration is just always a hot topic, everyone always thinks they can just pull up the latter behind them as to not lose what they have to others. I don't feel anything is different now.
4. cedws · 1790471635 · focus · HN ↗
  I don’t this can even be debated. Immigration is the number one discussed issue in rich countries and immigration policy is causing massive swings in elections.
retinaros · 1790463264 · focus · HN ↗
Its a great way to favor highly skilled immigrants and bar others from becoming a burden
freetime2 · 1790463818 · focus · HN ↗
I think Japan thinks they can still attract enough foreigners to perform necessary service and manual labor jobs without the promise of permanent residency. That along with increasing automation - serving robots are a common sight at many restaurants these days, for example.
Permanent residency is reserved for people who can be a net benefit to social welfare programs - by contributing more than the average Japanese citizen (about USD $36,000 - $42,000 according to google). There are also new language requirements to promote assimilation.
I don’t think it’s anything too radical by global standards, and I have read there are similarities to what Singapore and South Korea already do [1] (but I don’t know too much about their programs though).
It’s important to note that the exact details haven’t been finalized yet. So exactly income requirements could change from current proposals/rumors.
These changes come on the heels of drastically increasing requirements for the business manager visa (which, to be fair, was heavily abused as a kind of “golden visa” in the past). They’ve also significantly increased visa application costs - I think I paid like ¥5,000 for my PR application, and it is now ¥200,000.
It does feel cruel to apply retroactively to people who have already submitted applications. And the stories of people whose lives are being completely upended by the changes are heartbreaking.
[1] <a href="https://www.japantimes.co.jp/commentary/2026/09/21/japan/japan-raises-residency-bar/" rel="nofollow">https://www.japantimes.co.jp/commentary/2026/09/21/japan/jap...
1. makeitdouble · 1790465379 · focus · HN ↗
  Japan has a heavy shortage of workers [0], and it has been so for many years now. Your link cites the efforts from 2017, the reason wasn't some olive branch to humanity, Japan already was in dire need of working class people.
  Right now the yen is so weak Japan salary look ridiculously low, there is the language barrier, and the low hanging jobs aren't great either (a ton in elderly care).
  Their policies to restrict immigration will have few impact short term, as immigration is already slowing down and even Filinos, who have always been on the better side of immigration, are looking for better opportunities [1]. Longer term though, people will remember how it goes when Japan economy trends down, and the immigration going away might not come back even when the trend reverses. Especially as there will already be a probably better community built elsewhere.
  [0] <a href="https://jp.ibtimes.com/japans-full-time-labor-shortages-persist-above-50-fourth-year-101106" rel="nofollow">https://jp.ibtimes.com/japans-full-time-labor-shortages-pers...
  [1] <a href="https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/3309634/why-filipino-migrants-are-rethinking-their-futures-in-japan" rel="nofollow">https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/3309634/why-filipino-migra...
  1. freetime2 · 1790467941 · focus · HN ↗
    To put that in perspective, US companies report similar rates of worker shortages in surveys:
    > The survey found that company size influenced hiring outcomes. Seventy-six percent of companies with 1,000 to 4,999 employees reported shortages, followed by 75% of firms with 5,000 employees or more and 74% of those with 250 to 999 employees. Among smaller firms, 69% of organizations with 50 to 249 employees, 66% with 10 to 49 employees and 61% with fewer than 10 employees reported hiring challenges.
    I'm not saying that there isn't a shortage of labor in Japan - just that business owners are never satisifed with the amount of labor available at the wages they wish to pay. And it may not be an existential shortage of labor like a lot of commenters are saying. Especially with recent developments in AI and automation.
    The declining birthrate in general does seem to be an existential issue if it cannot be stabilized. But it is hard to predict population trends long term (when I was growing up the big concern was overpopulation and China was running its one-child policy - now they are facing population decline).
    The weak yen is also definitely an issue right now - but it's impossible to predict where it will be in the future.
    So yes, Japan is facing real problems. And stricter immigration requirements likely will come at some cost to economic output. But if they feel it is necessary to protect their social welfare programs and cultural identity, then those tradeoffs are theirs to make. And all of the doom and gloom comments saying things like "it's suicide" feel like a bit of an overreaction to me when you look at the actual proposed changes.
    [1] <a href="https://www.staffingindustry.com/news/global-daily-news/69-of-us-employers-report-difficulty-finding-talent" rel="nofollow">https://www.staffingindustry.com/news/global-daily-news/69-o...
    makeitdouble · 1790483151 · focus · HN ↗
    The population decline and feeling to protect their identity are the two composite parts that strongly make Japan's case dire to my eyes. Those are not businesses feelings, and while China mispredicted it's population trends, we haven't seen any other country reversing a declining population other than letting in more people.
    Perhaps the US is on the same slope, right now anything US related sounds bonkers on all sides so I have no idea how it will go after next elections.
    > those tradeoffs are theirs to make
    I'm a lot biased as they're making these tradeoffs for me and my family, and electing a different leadership will be tough short term, as more than half of the population is 50+ yo and mostly cares about keeping it safe for their old age.
    TBF the current gov does a lot in other aspects, but throwing immigration as a bone to nationalist sentiment has never led to good outcomes IMHO.
patriciobcs · 1790464738 · focus · HN ↗
This only makes sense if Japan is believing they will fully automate blue collar jobs in the next few years
1. PunchyHamster · 1790464877 · focus · HN ↗
  This only makes sense if you think average migrant is net contributor with is definitely not always the case

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