I moved from the USA to Sweden about 6 years ago. Sweden has also been tightening its immigration laws, in ways I believe have been and will be detrimental to its future.
Countries have a right to change their laws, but I believe it’s in everyone’s interest for those laws to be changed while respecting principles of predictability and legal certainty.
People planned and rearranged their entire lives around immigration law in force at one point, perhaps 5 years ago, and now a new law is going into force that slams the door shut to having a basic sense of stability, with only a 6 month transition period. It’s cruel. And it sends a bad sign to anyone looking to move.
The USA can afford to be cruel because people will deal with it for high wages. Japan can maybe afford to be cruel because their cultural exports keep the top of their “talent attraction” funnel large. It’s economic suicide for any other small-to-medium sized nation dependent on foreign labor.
>I moved from the USA to Sweden about 6 years ago. Sweden has also been tightening its immigration laws
Context for others: Until 2026 Sweden had no language, income, employment, or skills requirement for citizenship. It now has some basic requirements in these areas.
>in ways I believe have been and will be detrimental to its future.
In completely unrelated news, Arabic is now the second most spoken language in Sweden after Swedish. <<a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20210511231225/https://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_popover.aspx?guid=7047637a-c5f5-4297-9afa-a273dd443a9a" rel="nofollow">http://web.archive.org/web/20210511231225/https://digitaledi...>.
Also completely unrelated: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Sweden" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swe...
If English, German, Swedish, etc. shared a single prestige form, which all educated speakers understand and use for formal purposes, I think it would be reasonable and common to call them dialects of "Germanic".
More generally, you'll drive yourself crazy trying to form an opinion of what a language "really" is independent of what the people who use it believe. Norwegian people can generally read Danish, and Danish people can generally read Norwegian if it's written in Bokmål, but Bokmål is only one of the two equally valid ways to write Norwegian. What's going on there? You can trample over the cultural context to impose some abstract definition of what's "really" a language, or you can accept that Norwegian is a language because Norwegian speakers say so and not worry too much about the metaphysical status of Nynorsk.
Anyway what he really really glossed over is that "Arabic" (or the Arabic languages as would be more correct) speakers will also speak Swedish.
At the same time it is very unlikely that the English speaker will learn Swedish, so English speakers are more of a threat to Swedish than Arabic speakers.
I’m not sure I would consider $2k a month in predictable wages “basic,” as you say. If you live outside of the big cities, it’s quite an unnecessarily high bar to meet. If you work in industries where time-bounded contracts are the norm over “tills vidare” employment, it’s also basically impossible to satisfy.
Beyond naturalization reforms, you also have the issue of minimum salary hikes for work permits (with no transitional rules), resulting in regular, integrated workers getting deported. 18 year old kids (of regular, integrated workers) getting deported, as well as regular, integrated workers being deported because they happened to come in on an asylum visa and then changed to a work permit (under a law that was revoked, again, with no transitional rules).
Every time the lack of predictability and legal certainty for these people was an explicit choice.
Swedes barely understand the cruelty that’s happening, let alone the damage it’s doing to Sweden’s reputation among globally mobile workers.
> It’s economic suicide for any other small-to-medium sized nation dependent on foreign labor.
This such a baffling statement, honestly: that the flourishing economy crucially depends on foreign labour. What happened with the role of the technological know-how, and vast material (and financial) capital? The institutions? All of that is still not enough for prosperity unless you can hire a paperless José for $7.40 per hour, with an implied threat of handing him off to ICE if he raises any stink?
Most of developed economies dont need blue collar foreign labor in the future. Some dont even need it now. There are no industries in uk or france and this labor role is mostly to suppress wages (we ve seen it with brexit and english truck drivers) . For industrial nations like germany before they shot themselves you do need this labor until robots and automation makes them obsolete. Way before 50years and then being a nation with low immigration is becoming a key advantage for a country cohesion and future. Finally every country at 25% youth unemployment (like france and spain) shoould block all immigration beside highly skilled immigrants
Robots and automation won’t replace health care workers. Aging countries will need more of those.
And the unemployed youth would be working those low skilled jobs today if they wanted to, fact is they don’t pay enough for them and if those jobs are automated away they will still be unemployed.
It obviously suppress wages, which is a necessary condition for capitalism. Any country where it costs 10x to build infrastructure because there is no cheap labor will be less competitive.
When a person migrates, I would believe that the origin country has one less population. So why is it good that this person props up population in the destination country instead of in the origin country?
And why does the destination country need that persons labour and expertise, but not the origin country?
If the native population is becoming exterminated with or without migration, what exactly is the "country" that needs to be kept "afloat"? Your stock portfolio? Your treasury bills? Your real estate investment?
It’s definitely a possibility that a country dwindles away and is happy to do so in order to avoid immigration. We’ll probably see that with Japan and South Korea by the end of this century.
Ultimately it’s their choice.
Whether a country with high population composed of immigration is still the same country we can look to the Americas. Countries with extreme high degree of immigration and assimilation, yet still very much worthwhile countries. Maybe not the countries the natives from 500 years ago would have imagined, but their culture has survived more than 100 years and contribute significantly to the world still. New Zealand is also a good example of native culture not being wiped out even with assimilation.
The fate of the native North Americans is one of the largest catastrophes in the history of humanity. Just as so many other times through human history when natives were displaced and replaced, whether by violent or non-violent means, or a mix of both.
Immigration doesn't change the fact of natives dwindling away or not. A nation is the native people, not a name on a map. The exceptions are the United States and other new world ex-colonies. But there was a very dear price paid in blood and tears to make them.
America has had almost no assimilation of immigrants into the cultures which existed there before. Very good arguments have been made that the Enlightenment (or Age of Reason) did originate from native North American ideas and ideals being brought to Europe through cultural exchange, but it's not assimilation on the part of the settlers.
> America has had almost no assimilation of immigrants into the cultures which existed there before
That's almost a uniquely United States problem, not at all as big of an issue in most of the Americas. Only a few countries in the Americas have had their native population pretty much entirely wiped out without any assimilation whatsoever. The US is one of these few countries (Cuba and Hispaniola would be other examples of total replacement).
The rest has had large degree of intermixing or wholesale population preservation. Aspects of native culture is those countries were suppressed historically but are still preserved in some way to this day.
It's also very fair to say sovereign countries today can build a healthier immigration policy than 1500s Europeans with their extermination campaigns.
Interesting! Could you point us towards where the "Very good arguments have been made that the Enlightenment (or Age of Reason) did originate from native North American ideas and ideals" can be found?
IIRC there's a lot of material about the North-North-American fur trade origins piggybacking onto existing Great Lakes and other regions trade networks with the French and the British picking up political and trade habits from those peoples.
( Not a scholar in the field, just a broad reader )
Yes! In the book The Dawn of Everything by David Graeber and David Wengrow. It covers a lot of other things, especially pre-history, but the part about native American influence on the enlightenment they have a lot of sources for. At least I was convinced.
Be aware that the book is a bit academically written and that they want to cover every base in each sentence instead of writing clearly to the point. So sometimes it is extremely interesting and sometimes frustrating and boring.
I'm having a hard time following the thinking in many of these threads so I'm not sure if you're questioning it genuinely (or hypothetically or sarcastically), but I think essentially yes sadly.
Wealthier areas wonder why it costs so much for house renovations or for daycare or`for farmer's market produce. Or similarly folks move to less wealthy countries as "expats" and hire help, babysitters, tutors. Sense of prosperity seems tied to those things feeling inexpensive and them feeling cheap requires income inequality. There's I think a large amount of feeling poor (or average) when those things are eating your budget. Even though you have them. For example, you pay for expensive childcare so both parents can work, it takes a big bite out of your budget, and so you don't feel wealthy (but you're paying for childcare and your family has an employee). Similarly, you're paying for expensive private school, it eats your budget, you don't feel wealthy (but your child is going to private school).
For those doing well, the surplus goes to what's left—house, education, healthcare (I recall there being a fourth, but I'm blanking). Those things are expensive because they should be, you're wealthy. You're competing with the other wealthy people. I'm stealing this from somewhere, but they're essentially luxury goods—the more money you have, the more (and better quality) you consume. They don't decrease as percent of income as food does.
You don't have a automatic right to live in another country in my opinion. I don't blame Swedes for slamming a door shut that has turned their incredibly safe country into the gun and bomb capital of Europe.
> You don't have a automatic right to live in another country in my opinion.
its true, and thats how things are (legally anyways) but taking that further sometimes i wonder why its okay to freely move from region a to region b inside a country?
wouldn't the same logic apply to people from say east germany moving to the west? or 'annoying liberals' from california moving to north carolina? yes they can add to the local tax base, but if we want to keep things fair we should probably move to restrict everyone to stay in their own places if thats the logic we are following... but maybe i'm not thinking deeply enough...
> turned their incredibly safe country into the gun and bomb capital of Europe.
I learned it here some years ago. I don’t follow Swedish news. Someone or the article title mentioned “grenade attacks in Sweden”. I thought it was parody at first but it’s a thing somehow. Do they think immigration is what contributes? Someone said it was simply the city in question was at the border with other country that’s why grenades are a thing there…
> Japan can maybe afford to be cruel because their cultural exports keep the top of their “talent attraction” funnel large
I am fascinated by others being fascinated with Japan (meta fascination?). It’s like this mythical land of milk and honey for some. I don’t get? It’s just another country amongst hundred others.
Their big cities are essentially a nerd heaven. Imagine Cyberpunk 2077, but very orderly. It is understandable why it is attracts more attention on HN than... say Amderstam or Jakarta.
Yeah out of all my acquaintances it's the most "nerdy" ones I guess who learned Japanese and wanted to either visit or visit and then live there.
iamEAP · · focus · HN ↗
Countries have a right to change their laws, but I believe it’s in everyone’s interest for those laws to be changed while respecting principles of predictability and legal certainty.
People planned and rearranged their entire lives around immigration law in force at one point, perhaps 5 years ago, and now a new law is going into force that slams the door shut to having a basic sense of stability, with only a 6 month transition period. It’s cruel. And it sends a bad sign to anyone looking to move.
The USA can afford to be cruel because people will deal with it for high wages. Japan can maybe afford to be cruel because their cultural exports keep the top of their “talent attraction” funnel large. It’s economic suicide for any other small-to-medium sized nation dependent on foreign labor.
TMWNN · · focus · HN ↗
Context for others: Until 2026 Sweden had no language, income, employment, or skills requirement for citizenship. It now has some basic requirements in these areas.
* 2025 citizenship requirements: <<a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20250315034218/https://www.migrationsverket.se/en/you-want-to-apply/swedish-citizenship/citizenship-for-adults/citizenship-for-adults.html" rel="nofollow">https://web.archive.org/web/20250315034218/https://www.migra...>
* 2026: <<a href="https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Becoming-a-Swedish-citizen/Apply-for-citizenship/Citizenship-for-adults.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...>
>in ways I believe have been and will be detrimental to its future.
In completely unrelated news, Arabic is now the second most spoken language in Sweden after Swedish. <<a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20210511231225/https://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_popover.aspx?guid=7047637a-c5f5-4297-9afa-a273dd443a9a" rel="nofollow">http://web.archive.org/web/20210511231225/https://digitaledi...>.
Also completely unrelated: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Sweden" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swe...
angry_octet · · focus · HN ↗
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LtWorf · · focus · HN ↗
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[deleted] · · focus · HN ↗
[deleted]
wat10000 · · focus · HN ↗
LtWorf · · focus · HN ↗
It's like saying "anglosaxon" and grouping english, german, swedish, danish, norwegian as one single language.
poulpy123 · · focus · HN ↗
SpicyLemonZest · · focus · HN ↗
More generally, you'll drive yourself crazy trying to form an opinion of what a language "really" is independent of what the people who use it believe. Norwegian people can generally read Danish, and Danish people can generally read Norwegian if it's written in Bokmål, but Bokmål is only one of the two equally valid ways to write Norwegian. What's going on there? You can trample over the cultural context to impose some abstract definition of what's "really" a language, or you can accept that Norwegian is a language because Norwegian speakers say so and not worry too much about the metaphysical status of Nynorsk.
LtWorf · · focus · HN ↗
At the same time it is very unlikely that the English speaker will learn Swedish, so English speakers are more of a threat to Swedish than Arabic speakers.
iamEAP · · focus · HN ↗
Beyond naturalization reforms, you also have the issue of minimum salary hikes for work permits (with no transitional rules), resulting in regular, integrated workers getting deported. 18 year old kids (of regular, integrated workers) getting deported, as well as regular, integrated workers being deported because they happened to come in on an asylum visa and then changed to a work permit (under a law that was revoked, again, with no transitional rules).
Every time the lack of predictability and legal certainty for these people was an explicit choice.
Swedes barely understand the cruelty that’s happening, let alone the damage it’s doing to Sweden’s reputation among globally mobile workers.
Joker_vD · · focus · HN ↗
This such a baffling statement, honestly: that the flourishing economy crucially depends on foreign labour. What happened with the role of the technological know-how, and vast material (and financial) capital? The institutions? All of that is still not enough for prosperity unless you can hire a paperless José for $7.40 per hour, with an implied threat of handing him off to ICE if he raises any stink?
dlisboa · · focus · HN ↗
Foreign labor is what will keep most of these countries afloat for the following 50 years.
Japan is a good example, they lose about 1 million every year.
retinaros · · focus · HN ↗
dlisboa · · focus · HN ↗
And the unemployed youth would be working those low skilled jobs today if they wanted to, fact is they don’t pay enough for them and if those jobs are automated away they will still be unemployed.
It obviously suppress wages, which is a necessary condition for capitalism. Any country where it costs 10x to build infrastructure because there is no cheap labor will be less competitive.
retinaros · · focus · HN ↗
LtWorf · · focus · HN ↗
knlam · · focus · HN ↗
retinaros · · focus · HN ↗
Joker_vD · · focus · HN ↗
retinaros · · focus · HN ↗
expedition32 · · focus · HN ↗
Xenophobia doesn't exist in the Netherlands we just hate everyone equally lol.
LtWorf · · focus · HN ↗
carlosjobim · · focus · HN ↗
And why does the destination country need that persons labour and expertise, but not the origin country?
If the native population is becoming exterminated with or without migration, what exactly is the "country" that needs to be kept "afloat"? Your stock portfolio? Your treasury bills? Your real estate investment?
dlisboa · · focus · HN ↗
Ultimately it’s their choice.
Whether a country with high population composed of immigration is still the same country we can look to the Americas. Countries with extreme high degree of immigration and assimilation, yet still very much worthwhile countries. Maybe not the countries the natives from 500 years ago would have imagined, but their culture has survived more than 100 years and contribute significantly to the world still. New Zealand is also a good example of native culture not being wiped out even with assimilation.
carlosjobim · · focus · HN ↗
Immigration doesn't change the fact of natives dwindling away or not. A nation is the native people, not a name on a map. The exceptions are the United States and other new world ex-colonies. But there was a very dear price paid in blood and tears to make them.
America has had almost no assimilation of immigrants into the cultures which existed there before. Very good arguments have been made that the Enlightenment (or Age of Reason) did originate from native North American ideas and ideals being brought to Europe through cultural exchange, but it's not assimilation on the part of the settlers.
dlisboa · · focus · HN ↗
That's almost a uniquely United States problem, not at all as big of an issue in most of the Americas. Only a few countries in the Americas have had their native population pretty much entirely wiped out without any assimilation whatsoever. The US is one of these few countries (Cuba and Hispaniola would be other examples of total replacement).
The rest has had large degree of intermixing or wholesale population preservation. Aspects of native culture is those countries were suppressed historically but are still preserved in some way to this day.
It's also very fair to say sovereign countries today can build a healthier immigration policy than 1500s Europeans with their extermination campaigns.
polotics · · focus · HN ↗
defrost · · focus · HN ↗
and from other native groups you'll see many statements like:
~ <a href="https://collegefund.org/blog/democracy/democracy-is-rooted-in-native-values/" rel="nofollow">https://collegefund.org/blog/democracy/democracy-is-rooted-i...
IIRC there's a lot of material about the North-North-American fur trade origins piggybacking onto existing Great Lakes and other regions trade networks with the French and the British picking up political and trade habits from those peoples.
( Not a scholar in the field, just a broad reader )
carlosjobim · · focus · HN ↗
Be aware that the book is a bit academically written and that they want to cover every base in each sentence instead of writing clearly to the point. So sometimes it is extremely interesting and sometimes frustrating and boring.
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dawn_of_Everything" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dawn_of_Everything
cm11 · · focus · HN ↗
Wealthier areas wonder why it costs so much for house renovations or for daycare or`for farmer's market produce. Or similarly folks move to less wealthy countries as "expats" and hire help, babysitters, tutors. Sense of prosperity seems tied to those things feeling inexpensive and them feeling cheap requires income inequality. There's I think a large amount of feeling poor (or average) when those things are eating your budget. Even though you have them. For example, you pay for expensive childcare so both parents can work, it takes a big bite out of your budget, and so you don't feel wealthy (but you're paying for childcare and your family has an employee). Similarly, you're paying for expensive private school, it eats your budget, you don't feel wealthy (but your child is going to private school).
For those doing well, the surplus goes to what's left—house, education, healthcare (I recall there being a fourth, but I'm blanking). Those things are expensive because they should be, you're wealthy. You're competing with the other wealthy people. I'm stealing this from somewhere, but they're essentially luxury goods—the more money you have, the more (and better quality) you consume. They don't decrease as percent of income as food does.
Qazpqaz · · focus · HN ↗
andrekandre · · focus · HN ↗
wouldn't the same logic apply to people from say east germany moving to the west? or 'annoying liberals' from california moving to north carolina? yes they can add to the local tax base, but if we want to keep things fair we should probably move to restrict everyone to stay in their own places if thats the logic we are following... but maybe i'm not thinking deeply enough...
rawgabbit · · focus · HN ↗
myaccountonhn · · focus · HN ↗
rdtsc · · focus · HN ↗
I learned it here some years ago. I don’t follow Swedish news. Someone or the article title mentioned “grenade attacks in Sweden”. I thought it was parody at first but it’s a thing somehow. Do they think immigration is what contributes? Someone said it was simply the city in question was at the border with other country that’s why grenades are a thing there…
Qazpqaz · · focus · HN ↗
aix1 · · focus · HN ↗
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombings_in_Sweden" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombings_in_Sweden
soundnote · · focus · HN ↗
[deleted] · · focus · HN ↗
[deleted]
rdtsc · · focus · HN ↗
I am fascinated by others being fascinated with Japan (meta fascination?). It’s like this mythical land of milk and honey for some. I don’t get? It’s just another country amongst hundred others.
throwaway2037 · · focus · HN ↗
rdtsc · · focus · HN ↗