Thread

Turn off Apple Intelligence on macOS 27 and get its disk space back

562 points · 376 comments · privacyisntdead

ryandrake · 1791149394 · focus · HN ↗
Reminds me of all the de-crufting you've always needed to do when you install Windows. Looks like we've gotten to the point on macOS too, where you need to run third party scripts on a new OS installation to gain back control of your system resources and remove unwanted crapware.
1. azinman2 · 1791149858 · focus · HN ↗
  What makes you call it crapware? The new spotlight search (from Siri) is amazing and super convenient.
  1. adastra22 · 1791150062 · focus · HN ↗
    I don’t want to make my search more ambiguous. That is the opposite of what I want.
    ianm218 · 1791152066 · focus · HN ↗
    The existing search on macOS was almost completely useless to be fair
    dreamcompiler · 1791153720 · focus · HN ↗
    Spotlight search has sucked from Day 1 of OSX. You need to use Find Any File [0] or some equivalent tool if you want to search the actual file system without being limited by Spotlight's never-properly-updated "index."
    The functionality of Find Any File was built in to Mac OS 9 and earlier. It was rock-solid reliable. So of course Apple removed it and now to get reliable search you have to use a third-party tool. Or 'find' in the Terminal.
    [0] <a href="https://findanyfile.app/" rel="nofollow">https://findanyfile.app/
    appletrotter · 1791156172 · focus · HN ↗
    This is why I rip out spotlight on my mac and replace it with FZF
    a96 · 1791183039 · focus · HN ↗
    Would you have a guide? Particularly on the rip out part. Fzf is no nice unless you trigger it on a dir too big (e.g. your entire home).
    alexgoodhart · 1791164213 · focus · HN ↗
    Spotlight was really good on Tiger idkwym
  2. lynndotpy · 1791150697 · focus · HN ↗
    The new spotlight search replaced what I previously used, made it function worse for what I used it for, and uses 30GiB of already very scarce disk space.
    For many users, it is a strict downgrade that was forced on them against their consent.
    empthought · 1791154936 · focus · HN ↗
    How was it "against their consent?" The Siri AI / Apple Intelligence feature required a user to explicitly enable it. It didn't just get enabled for you.
    I know this because I just explicitly enabled it, and now I have the new Spotlight search. I didn't have it before I enabled it.
    appletrotter · 1791156108 · focus · HN ↗
    I never asked for it, I had to disable it
    lynndotpy · 1791161842 · focus · HN ↗
    No, this is downloaded and installed upon installation of MacOS 27. The 30 GiB of "Apple Intelligence" is sitting on my disk against my consent. I've even taken pains to do all of the hacks (save for the novel one in this repo) to disable Siri AI.
  3. therein · 1791150775 · focus · HN ↗
    Can it now consistently find things in /Applications when I type the full name?
    That's revolutionary.
    trollbridge · 1791152385 · focus · HN ↗
    No.
    I made my own “pseudo spotlight” and mapped it to ⌘-Space specifically for this. It just goes against old fashioned locate/updatedb, but with a very quick check against /Applications first + running the search query through bc and if it’s valid syntax, showing the math result.
    azinman2 · 1791159973 · focus · HN ↗
    You’re missing the entire new world of personal context retrieval.
    kalleboo · 1791184481 · focus · HN ↗
    Yeah in macOS 27 it's finally been really good about prioritizing the Applications folder, including with indexing, apps show up in search now right after you installed them
  4. cryptolobster · 1791155500 · focus · HN ↗
    Just because something is convenient or necessary for you, it doesn't mean it is convenient or necessary for everyone
2. Smalltalker-80 · 1791149972 · focus · HN ↗
  True that, win11debloat is 'mandatory' nowadays. The time that OS makers competed with each other with features users actually wanted is long gone, alas.. This is why Linux is now making more serious momentum. Even a long term 'Microsoftie' like myself is now standing on the brink of making the leap. Just a bit more Steam compatibility first please...
  1. skydhash · 1791150987 · focus · HN ↗
    I got an old disk with a win10 installation on it. It lasted only three days. It was because of all the pinging from notifications and all the CTA buttons (like Sign in to Onedrive in the settings). It felt like a minefield where a click can blow your whole setup.
    I wipe the whole thing and installed Fedora.
    I could tolerate windows if I needed a particular set of software on it, but no way that I could use it as a daily driver.
  2. ChickeNES · 1791153243 · focus · HN ↗
    Mandatory for what? I run stock Win11 for the most part, haven’t have had any real issues with it. I think I disabled/modified a few mouse hotspots and key combos, and that’s been about it. Sure during major updates there’s the “buy our shit” rigmarole, but at this point I just click through and then forget about it for another month or two. Annoying yes, but compared to actual annoyances in my life…I just can’t be bothered to care or get mad, to be honest.
    throooooo · 1791159063 · focus · HN ↗
    Depending on how much you value your privacy or not being annoyed, some people see it as mandatory.
    aetch · 1791187451 · focus · HN ↗
    Mandatory if you don’t want to see ads in your start menu and search
3. 2muchcoffeeman · 1791150186 · focus · HN ↗
  On windows you got garbage like trial versions of Blah software.
  This is a fully functioning feature that people don’t like for what ever reason.
  1. 2III7 · 1791150657 · focus · HN ↗
    Fully functional feature consuming multiple gigabytes of storage and has questionable functional value. Maybe people don't want bloated AI crap on their desktops?
    2muchcoffeeman · 1791150898 · focus · HN ↗
    I’m not making any judgement on whether you should or should not like the feature.
    I’m stating that the Windows problem was very different. Your machine would be loaded up with software for various vendors that the manufacturer did deals with to lower the price of the machine. They were all trials.
    buran77 · 1791153989 · focus · HN ↗
    > I’m stating that the Windows problem was very different. [...] They were all trials.
    Except it isn't and they weren't. MS Windows never came with trials, it came with shortcuts. OEMs bundled with their Windows image more of their (crap) full software than trials.
    And to this day debloating tools are tasked with removing full MS bundled (or auto installed) software like Teams, Outlook, DevHome, Copilot, M365, Recall, etc. So exactly the same problem as Apple Intelligence. Whether you consider it useful is up to you. Whether it's bundled is up to Apple.
    2muchcoffeeman · 1791186841 · focus · HN ↗
    Fair point. It was OEMs. But that’s normally how you got windows. I don’t use windows much these days so I have no idea what the modern annoyances are.
    ternaryoperator · 1791177884 · focus · HN ↗
    > [On Windows] Your machine would be loaded up with software for various vendors that the manufacturer did deals with to lower the price of the machine.
    So the only difference is that the vendor here is Apple itself. Honestly, not seeing much difference.
    Stitch4223 · 1791152353 · focus · HN ↗
    “Some people” arguments always hold true.
    Old classmates back in the day used to hate the 128 × 128 px icons macOS shipped. A waste of space for eye candy.
    12 GB is at most 4.68% of your Mac. Improving on Apple Intelligence is something of value, as is consumerizing local-first AI.
    We’re not talking adware here.
    verandaguy · 1791153080 · focus · HN ↗
    > Improving on Apple Intelligence is something of value
    Not if you didn't use apple intelligence in the first place (and/or aren't interested in using it going forward).
    > as is consumerizing local-first AI
    If and only if there is actual demand for it. If most users do not want this, it's a bad feature.
    samudrijan · 1791155531 · focus · HN ↗
    That’s a whole 4% of my disc. Get that out of there.
    appletrotter · 1791156054 · focus · HN ↗
    Apple's AI and harnesses are trash and a complete waste of space
    Also suggesting that sacrificing 1/20 of your disk space is NBD is crazy. I have to prune space on my drive all the time because macs ship with the least amount of disk space that apple imagines they can get away with as possible.
    groundzeros2015 · 1791156148 · focus · HN ↗
    Are you arguing that the icons did not occupy a scarce resource that could have been used for other things? Or that the value is so obvious it we worth it?
    athoneycutt · 1791157054 · focus · HN ↗
    Useful or not there should be an option to turn it off and get space back (plus avoid LLM) if you want.
    bloqs · 1791157306 · focus · HN ↗
    4% of my disk on a computer with soldered storage hardware?
    Is the marketing really getting this good?
    EA-3167 · 1791157871 · focus · HN ↗
    This is going to shock you I suspect, it seems to be something many here fail to consider in any number of circumstances: You don't represent a majority of anything. A majority of people buying Macs, a majority of people they market to, a majority of who they design for, a majority of who they product test against. In fact I'd venture to guess that you like many here represent a vocal portion of a tiny minority that are almost impossible to please without the sort of full customization of hardware and software you want. It's much easier to neglect that small market in favor of the one that prints them money, and I'm always baffled that so many don't understand that.
    People here misunderstand just how different they are to the norm. "I want x, y, z to be free so I can modify it!" Most people buying Apple products don't, hell most people buying any phone doesn't want that, they want a smartphone that works out of the box and never fails to be a smartphone. The walled garden is largely a feature and not a bug, it's just not a feature you want, just like the aesthetics, social factors, ease of use, etc don't matter to you as much as function.
    Most people aren't like that.
    klrefg · 1791180767 · focus · HN ↗
    > a majority of people they market to, a majority of who they design for, a majority of who they product test against
    As if Apple is always right and knows what their users want. Sure they are more often than other companies but stuff like the touchbar and Siri itself for that matter prove that they do in fact make mistakes.
    isityettime · 1791159476 · focus · HN ↗
    5% is huge. And the way app bundles work on macOS, tons and tons of disk space gets burned up for each application relative to on an OS like Linux distros, so each GB doesn't go as far in the first place.
    It's also not the full extent of disk usage by built-in apps which aren't removable by normal means on macOS. An empty macOS installation is like 35 GB. NixOS is not known for being particularly space efficient, but 30-40 GB is how much space I use on it for the OS and all applications, including a ton of developer tools, on my graphical systems. For the base OS with a full fat desktop environment, most Linux distros have you looking at less than 10 GB. So this comes as a massive increase on an OS that already burns a ton of disk space before you even get to touch it.
    quaddoggy · 1791161993 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes, but it’s death by a thousand cuts. I encourage you to see how much BS space is taken up by iMovie or Live Photos or whatever on your iPhone. If every team at Apple wants their percentage you end up with less.
    mahboi · 1791166938 · focus · HN ↗
    iMovie isn't installed by default, and live photos are an option at least. Apple Intelligence requires ripping out with sketchy scripts.
    jtbayly · 1791162668 · focus · HN ↗
    Wrong. 12GB is potentially 9.4% of your disk. At the very least, the original M1 MacBook Air (perhaps others) could be purchased with 128GB of storage.
    52sk · 1791173252 · focus · HN ↗
    The M1 MacBook Air did not have a 128 GB storage option.
    alwillis · 1791183237 · focus · HN ↗
    > The M1 MacBook Air did not have a 128 GB storage option.
    There was an 128 GB model [1] that was only sold to schools.
    [1]: <a href="https://everymac.com/systems/apple/macbook-air/specs/macbook-air-m1-8-core-7-core-gpu-13-retina-display-2020-specs.html" rel="nofollow">https://everymac.com/systems/apple/macbook-air/specs/macbook...
    penskymaterial · 1791165370 · focus · HN ↗
    Bruh the entire Mac OS used to fit in 20 GB and nothing they have added since has meaningfully improved my life, though some has made it more difficult.
    That extra space is for my media.
  2. dsego · 1791150864 · focus · HN ↗
    IE is also a fully functioning feature, so are snap packages.
  3. isityettime · 1791151146 · focus · HN ↗
    People have been doing the same thing with Cortana on Windows for ages. "Debloating" tools don't primarily target OEM add-ons like free trials of this or that; they very much target Windows components.
    hansonkd · 1791151743 · focus · HN ↗
    Cortana was heavily integrated with bing. It was essentially a way to get people to use bing.
    knollimar · 1791155110 · focus · HN ↗
    I swear didn't they lose a big antitrust case for doing this once already?
    a96 · 1791182595 · focus · HN ↗
    When have any antitrust cases have had any effect on Microsoft?
  4. nalekberov · 1791151193 · focus · HN ↗
    "fully functioning feature" -- more like fully functioning forceware/crapware which holds significant space.
    So, it's not for "what ever reason", it's quite a reason to reject this.
  5. burnte · 1791151407 · focus · HN ↗
    On Windows there are lots of fully features features/applications people turn off. It's not all trial versions and it's disingenuous to pretend it's just that.
  6. ramijames · 1791151433 · focus · HN ↗
    I just don't use it. I'm on a laptop with 500gb. I don't want to lose on so much disk space for a feature I won't use.
  7. Grombobulous · 1791151723 · focus · HN ↗
    Automatically downloading AI models into disk space with no user-facing way to turn it off is especially hostile considering Apple as vendor of both the OS and the hardware is the same entity that overcharges for non-upgradable SSD storage in their machines.
    penskymaterial · 1791152216 · focus · HN ↗
    They'll rent you more iCloud space when you fill up the SSD. That's good, holistic customer service.
    stingraycharles · 1791152608 · focus · HN ↗
    That doesn’t work unless you’re actually able to offload stuff from disk, which is only the case when you store stuff in your iCloud Drive / photos / etc.
    Case in point: the AI models can’t be offloaded to iCloud.
    penskymaterial · 1791153555 · focus · HN ↗
    Maybe someone can explain why their SSDs, when not soldered down, are a proprietary form factor and can't be replaced with a standard M.2 device?
    theodric · 1791154236 · focus · HN ↗
    To gain the same effect as one that is soldered down, while giving themselves a simpler portfolio of assemblies and a cheaper FRU to swap in the event of failure.
    m4rtink · 1791158213 · focus · HN ↗
    So vendor locking to make more money. :)
    stingraycharles · 1791154737 · focus · HN ↗
    I believe they have a special kind of SSD, where the controller is locked into the motherboard. This is serial locked in some form.
    (Correct me if I’m wrong, but this is how I understand it)
    Grombobulous · 1791158695 · focus · HN ↗
    My understanding is that the controller is integrated into the SoC.
    You can actually replace the storage on Apple desktops but it’s a bit of a pain and isn’t as cheap as m.2 2280 drives.
    I don’t really know why Apple does this when their solution doesn’t seem to offer an obvious advantage. They aren’t faster than existing solutions or anything like that.
    throooooo · 1791160112 · focus · HN ↗
    Vendor lock-in increases their profit margins. If people could purchase a 128GB Mac mini and install their own 2TB drives they wouldn't make as much money.
    odo1242 · 1791162649 · focus · HN ↗
    It’s not actually serial locked, you can replace SSDs by desoldering and resoldering a NAND chip. But basically their SSD controller is integrated into the M-series chips (mostly because cheaper, less connectors to manufacture). But it’s a very specialized process
    stingraycharles · 1791163105 · focus · HN ↗
    I think most consumers would happily pay a bit extra for these controllers if it meant that they could manually upgrade their SSDs. I can’t help but have the feeling that it’s also quite convenient for Apple that all this stuff is effectively non-replaceable / upgradable.
    I don’t think the benefits are the same as with their RAM being part of their SoC, as that gives them real speed improvements, right?
    floydnoel · 1791166986 · focus · HN ↗
    I disagree. I think 90% or more wouldn't care.
    Barbing · 1791173936 · focus · HN ↗
    Indeed,
    > manually upgrade
    or “average Apple customer”, pick one
    btw something beautiful about the YouTube videos of shops in China doing those SSD deletes with the power tools
    ascorbic · 1791178542 · focus · HN ↗
    I'd be amazed if even 1% care
    JumpCrisscross · 1791174222 · focus · HN ↗
    > it’s also quite convenient for Apple that all this stuff is effectively non-replaceable / upgradable
    On the other hand, I’m happily banging away on my ca. 2020 M1 MacBook Pro. It just got a warranty service, free to me, that replaced the screen. It will probably get replaced around 2030. That simply isn’t the norm with the alternatives.
    The hypothesis that this is self serving isn’t supported by the evidence. Instead it’s more parsimonious to conclude that this is Apple being Apple with pushing design to the limit when it comes to executing a vision. User-upgradable parts have not been part of that vision since Jobs returned.
    klrefg · 1791180255 · focus · HN ↗
    > User-upgradable parts have not been part of that vision since Jobs returned.
    Macs were quite repairable and most parts were replaceable until ~2012. So it’s hard to blame Jobs for that.
    JumpCrisscross · 1791189543 · focus · HN ↗
    > Macs were quite repairable and most parts were replaceable until ~2012. So it’s hard to blame Jobs for that
    Not "blaming" because I'm not convinced it's the wrong move. Soldering memory directly onto the logic board has advantages relative to a fully-encapsulated drive.
    Apple learned this, in part, from designing the iPhone. And Jobs always had this penchant for pushing design to its limits even when it sacrifices conventional (and in some cases, probably necessary) functional requirements.
    What I am convinced about is the lunacy of the planned-obsolescence argument. The longevity of Apple's products simply doesn't support it.
    lm411 · 1791181292 · focus · HN ↗
    I've had good luck with AppleCare and warranty service, and most of my Macbook's have lasted well.
    On the other hand my sons 2021 Mac Mini M1 with an estimated < 20% writes remaining on the SSD is not looking very cool. In fact, rather disappointing and the computer will be junk soon due to the SSD only.
    kalleboo · 1791182990 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    seviu · 1791184907 · focus · HN ↗
    They could easily give us a system that can be easily upgraded. At least the SSD.
    And I would inmediately put an order for a 256GB Mac Studio with 1TB SSD, if I were to know that SSD can be upgraded later on. I dont even mind if I have to buy premium SSD upgrades from Apple.
    But locking the system in and knowing the decision is final? No thanks. And no way I am shelling 18k or whatever outrageous sum they ask for 8 extra TB.
    It might be they are leaving money off the table with their greed.
    LoganDark · 1791169800 · focus · HN ↗
    Note that before the Mac mini socketed SSDs, Retina MacBook Pros had socketed SSDs as well. They were not standard M.2 either though, you had to get specific aftermarket parts from the likes of OWC
    dwaite · 1791173507 · focus · HN ↗
    My understanding is that they are not SSDs - they lack a disk controller, instead providing flash memory more directly to the SoC
    tavavex · 1791159218 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but what you're calling "good, holistic customer service" is more commonly described as "inventing a problem and then selling you the solution".
    mancerayder · 1791161241 · focus · HN ↗
    Google is doing the same on Android - there's no native tool to search for large images and videos by date. There's a Purchase Google Cloud Storage type of header that pops up when you start to get full, and you can delete whatever is quick to find or remember to delete, like WhatsApp media, which you find through an annoying directory structure with a broken tool. It's terrible.
    saghm · 1791165039 · focus · HN ↗
    Gosh, maybe there are two companies that are both doing the same bad thing, rather than the thing being good?
    esseph · 1791188044 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    nozzlegear · 1791158303 · focus · HN ↗
    Like it or not, Siri is one of the features of macOS and has been for a long time. It's not just some arbitrary AI model that Apple decided to store on your disk.
    jtbayly · 1791162458 · focus · HN ↗
    “Siri” has existed for a long time, yes. Apple Intelligence, not so much. It really is just an arbitrary AI model, since I’ve had Siri for a decade and not needed whatever this extra 13GB model is.
    nozzlegear · 1791166453 · focus · HN ↗
    You've had a previous version of Siri for a decade that didn't do what the current version of Siri does. Whether you use it or not is not germane to whether the model is justified – it's what Siri needs to do what Apple wants it to do.
    klrefg · 1791180466 · focus · HN ↗
    > Whether you use it or not is not germane to whether the model is justified
    Huh.. well yeah, who cares what users need or want. Perfect attitude for a company making money by selling products to consumers.
    saghm · 1791165129 · focus · HN ↗
    And yet somehow they managed to not take up 12 GB of disk space that required running multiple manual steps to get back for a while.
    nozzlegear · 1791166492 · focus · HN ↗
    Superfluous details
    klrefg · 1791180509 · focus · HN ↗
    The majority of Macs sold have tiny SSDs. So not really.
    dominotw · 1791165309 · focus · HN ↗
    macos has tons for features. you expect them to provide a way for users individually turn off each feature in the os ?
    hibikir · 1791166981 · focus · HN ↗
    Many arbitrary features can be turned off: I haven't turned on Siri on a phone for many years, because the utility was minimal vs the annoyance of errors in voice activation. Taking very significant space in your drive is just as important. I can uninstall Pages and Garage Band. I should be able to uninstall apple intelligence
    ctippett · 1791177627 · focus · HN ↗
    I can uninstall Pages and Garage Band.
    Not Chess.app though!
    alsetmusic · 1791168379 · focus · HN ↗
    If it consumes valuable disk space (especially with current insane market prices), yes.
    klrefg · 1791180369 · focus · HN ↗
    To be fair.. why not?
    mightysashiman · 1791190451 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes. I'm sure these overpaid minds apple can come up with a package manager and dependency system system. It's not rocket science. A lot of force-fed features should actually be on-demand installable rather than baked in.
    simondotau · 1791177087 · focus · HN ↗
    Meanwhile, other people are complaining about companies making you rely on cloud compute for AI. The exciting thing about Apple Intelligence is the prospect of writing apps with the assumption that it exists on everyone’s computer.
    pprotas · 1791177491 · focus · HN ↗
    You can’t assume that though, Apple Intelligence is not supported on everyone’s computer
    slipheen · 1791179359 · focus · HN ↗
    Apple Intelligence, for better or worse, runs on every Apple silicon Mac. Any machine which can run macOs 27 can run the local models. Some machines may run better local models if they gave 12+GB of ram, but I don't think it's accurate to say that Apple Intelligence is not supported universally.
    In this context we are talking about macOS 27. If your app requires 27, then it can correctly assume every machine will work.
    Grimblewald · 1791179219 · focus · HN ↗
    there's a third option youre missing here that people are consistent on: AI shpuld be opt in and nothing prevents opt in being default. AI isnt reliable or universally useful enough to include it defacto.
    fmbb · 1791180894 · focus · HN ↗
    Disk space is there to be used.
    Are these files particularly hard to clean out if your disk is getting full and you need the space?
    [deleted] · 1791181311 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    asdfsa32 · 1791181327 · focus · HN ↗
    Particularly hard for who? Why hard at all for anyone? Don't let the overtone window to slip.
    mrheosuper · 1791181653 · focus · HN ↗
    How about stop deciding for me. I love to see my disk free space.
  8. [deleted] · 1791152105 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
  9. penskymaterial · 1791152119 · focus · HN ↗
    This simply isn't true.
    Trial versions are installed by the OEMs so that's not a Windows problem.
    Microsoft has given you the tools (Group Policy) for the last 25+ years to customize most of this.
    My last install of Windows 11 was shockingly frustrating but with a little patience and discipline it's customized to Windows 7 levels of sanity using nothing but out of the box tools. Shockingly, it works better than writing angry blog posts about it.
    They have to give you a choice because they have surly enterprise customers who would be upset otherwise.
    Terr_ · 1791157002 · focus · HN ↗
    > Microsoft has given you the tools (Group Policy) for the last 25+ years to customize most of this.
    Morally, why should Home users have to pay a $70 upgrade (or whatever it is) to the company extorting them with forced-on crap they didn't originally have and don't want?
    ericmay · 1791162178 · focus · HN ↗
    It is a Windows problem because Microsoft allowed OEMs to do it and when you bought a computer, it included Windows and from the end user perspective Windows thus included this software.
    > Microsoft has given you the tools (Group Policy) for the last 25+ years to customize most of this.
    Most people including me don’t know what this is and more importantly they just don’t care. The frame of reference is “I buy (vendor) laptop and Windows comes with all this stupid stuff I have to uninstall”. It is never “I bought Windows and I just use the Group Policy to do XYZ, and then….”.
    darkwater · 1791184092 · focus · HN ↗
    > It is a Windows problem because Microsoft allowed OEMs to do it and when you bought a computer
    No, it is not. It's still an OEM problem and you can go with another vendor (Framework for example) that doesn't do that. Actually in this case Microsoft does a better thing than Apple because you can actually choose as a consumer which vendor to use for your HW.
    Mashimo · 1791187551 · focus · HN ↗
    > Trial versions are installed by the OEMs so that's not a Windows problem.
    I'm 90 % sure I had trial apps on a clean desktop windows install. Or maybe after some update. All desktop with no pre-installed windows. I think it was candy crush and maybe spotify? I can't remember.
  10. [deleted] · 1791152504 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
  11. Wazzymandias · 1791155015 · focus · HN ↗
    I don't need a more bloated operating system or greater resource usage for things I don't want, use, or need. i'd prefer a calendar app that doesn't suck, and an OS that doesn't decrease performance by 5-15% on every new upgrade for slightly older machines
  12. SAI_Peregrinus · 1791155314 · focus · HN ↗
    It's the same reason IDEs have been largely supplanted by plugin-based editors & discrete toolchains. Integrating everything the user might want wastes lots of resources and includes things the user will never want.
  13. mahboi · 1791159813 · focus · HN ↗
    That's how it was in like 2000-2008. Modern Windows bloat is the OS itself.
  14. frollogaston · 1791161673 · focus · HN ↗
    I don't like it cause it uses 12GB
  15. saghm · 1791164952 · focus · HN ↗
    Maybe they don't like it because they don't have any desire to use it, and they didn't ask for it?
  16. JumpCrisscross · 1791174057 · focus · HN ↗
    > a fully functioning feature that people don’t like for what ever reason
    I’m genuinely struggling to use it on my Mac.
  17. itake · 1791177843 · focus · HN ↗
    I currently have alternative versions of these tools. I would rather run the latest qwen model or SOTA models than whatever outdated model Apple wants me to use.
  18. seviu · 1791184539 · focus · HN ↗
    Because Apple keeps on selling devices with 256GB SSD and this takes between 8-14GB of very valuable disk space, for a feature that most of us don't really use.
    It doesn't help that Apple never understood what Siri is and how it should work.
4. gchamonlive · 1791151209 · focus · HN ↗
  This will always be the case with proprietary software, invariably. Just a matter of time.
  1. frollogaston · 1791162499 · focus · HN ↗
    Linux distros have shot themselves in the foot plenty of times too. I was using Ubuntu when they rolled out the Unity update.
    gchamonlive · 1791164592 · focus · HN ↗
    They did, and it's a matter of time they'll do it again, but that was then, now we have lot's of options for distros and desktops, and what about the private sector? Win11 is in shambles, macOS becoming more and more a cloud terminal you rent...
    frollogaston · 1791181420 · focus · HN ↗
    Lots of Linux options is actually a bad thing for most people. They want one that does something reasonable. Right now I can't name one to bet on, not even Linux Mint cause of the whole XOrg vs Wayland thing.
    What do you mean by macOS being rented? It's been the same for about a decade, still not forcing me to update like Windows does on my spare PC running Win10 (well did until I told Claude to rip that out lol). And yeah Win11 is terrible, not even an option.
5. drooopy · 1791152593 · focus · HN ↗
  Not gonna lie, I would like a "Black Edition" of macOS. There is a decent OS buried under tons of rubble.
  1. ozgrakkurt · 1791153340 · focus · HN ↗
    Recently switched to KDE on a linux laptop (600 USD lenovo) and stopped using my macbook (m1 16" pro).
    Speakers, touchpad and battery life are inferior. Speakers are OK after installing EasyEffects and I don't use the touchpad while programming. And battery life is close enough
    Cachyos with KDE is 10x better than MacOS. So it doesn't make sense to use macbooks for programming anymore IMO.
    You can't even see the update download speed or progress percentage on MacOS, and have to approve 3 times to run a downloaded program, brew is terrible in terms of performance etc. etc. etc.
    eru · 1791157549 · focus · HN ↗
    Interesting. Why do you call out KDE? Does it add to the experience specifically for you?
    I usually use XMonad, but then I nearly do everything in the command line, and I don't like to move my windows around via mouse. (Though XMonad supports that, too.)
    XMonad works for me, but I wouldn't call it out specifically as contributing to the experience.
    > You can't even see the update download speed or progress percentage on MacOS, [...]
    What program are you talking about? You can customise eg Firefox on Mac, just like anywhere else, with extensions to look however you want.
    > [...] brew is terrible in terms of performance [...]
    I'm trying to fix at least brew's Python performance a bit:
    <a href="https://github.com/python/cpython/issues/158283" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/python/cpython/issues/158283
    throooooo · 1791158898 · focus · HN ↗
    I used to use XMonad (now on Hyprland) and feel that the tiling window manager experience you can get on Linux doesn't have an equivalent on macos. KDE is solid but yeah it's plain jane.
    uolmir · 1791165927 · focus · HN ↗
    Aerospace is very good. I'm not some tiling pro but it's been working perfectly for me for a year or so. Such an improvement over just using spaces on macos.
    ozgrakkurt · 1791159653 · focus · HN ↗
    I have been using KDE for 4-5 years on desktop by now and didn't have any big issues with it so far. I was able to solve every single issue I had with it using a web search or an LLM in a couple minutes.
    Only major issue I had was because of cachyos (I think) or just some LLM commands I ran that broke my sound output so I had to reinstall the OS. I probably had more but was using other OS like EndeavorOS/Manjaro before and don't think it was related to KDE.
    Also I just like the UI of it and can find any setting I want easily.
    > What program are you talking about? You can customise eg Firefox on Mac, just like anywhere else, with extensions to look however you want.
    I mean the Software Update thing that updates the OS itself. I also had issues like ghost updates for xcode tools with it (updates come even after I uninstall xcode tools).
    > I'm trying to fix at least brew's Python performance a bit:
    Nice!
    throooooo · 1791160247 · focus · HN ↗
    For the future, it shouldn't be necessary to reinstall Linux just to fix a sound card. Pipewire et. al are a bit of a mess and sprinkle config files in /etc and your home dir. If it happens again start with deleting those and doing a restart.
    eru · 1791184826 · focus · HN ↗
    > I mean the Software Update thing that updates the OS itself. I also had issues like ghost updates for xcode tools with it (updates come even after I uninstall xcode tools).
    I usually use something like 'nice sudo softwareupdate --all --install --force ' on Mac for updates. But yeah, it can be a bit of a pain.
    ijustlovemath · 1791157961 · focus · HN ↗
    Battery life optimization on Lenovos often involves installing and activating the correct GPU kernel module. My battery life on my P53 improved measurably after doing this, though installing new kernels involved a small build step. Are you just running with all the defaults?
    ozgrakkurt · 1791159377 · focus · HN ↗
    I just installed cachyos normally and didn't do any tweak for GPU. The laptop just has an amd CPU and doesn't have a GPU. Do need a specific GPU kernel module for this?
    dunder_cat · 1791162292 · focus · HN ↗
    With AMD, most GPUs including the integrated ones will just default to the `amdgpu` module which is maintained by AMD themselves. You pretty much have the best possible experience on Linux right now.
    I can't speak from personal experience since my only laptop is an Intel Framework 13 with no dGPU, but there'll be two other main cases both involving Nvidia that tend to bite people.
    1. "Gaming" laptops usually with integrated Intel GPU + Nvidia discrete GPU. Not sure what advancements have been made in power management, there. I know there's some incantations one can put in .desktop files to prefer the discrete GPU for like, games, but not much more I can speak to.
    2. General fun involving the fact that Nvidia's "gold-standard" drivers are not mainlined in the kernel, but maybe the fact that they are "open source"* means at some point there'll be parity with them. I think that is the goal of Red Hat's Nova driver in development.
    * these days, the GPUs got complicated enough they have management processors on them that can actually run most of the complicated algorithms via a firmware blob. So the current open-source drivers basically bridge the gap between the kernel's various subsystems and that little processor to work the magic.
    On another note, Intel Xe/i915 have been pretty good, I've used both for integrated GPUs and an Arc Alchemist-generation discrete card of theirs. The framework 13 12th gen intel GPU struggled at the start with a lot of hangs but within a few months of launch, some smart cookies at Intel managed to fix various bugs and it was smooth sailing from there, with the exception of thermals just being in a rough spot on that generation.
    II2II · 1791158469 · focus · HN ↗
    > Speakers, touchpad and battery life are inferior.
    I suppose it depends upon the model, but I find my Lenovo Yoga's touchpad vastly superior to my MacBook Pro's touchpad. Tracking is fine on both, yet I'm having trouble trouble with the MacBook Pro consistently handling clicks. Granted, that is probably a software thing. As an added bonus, the Yoga has a touch screen which folds back, both of which are nice to have. (Agreed on the Mac speakers being significantly better though.)
    > Cachyos with KDE is 10x better than MacOS.
    That is subjective. I definitely agree with you, but a lot of people won't. Then again, I have been using Linux for about 30 years so modern macOS feels limiting and there is very little I can do about it.
    flkiwi · 1791159357 · focus · HN ↗
    I use both macOS and Linux (NixOS + gnome/niri) regularly. When everything is working properly--and, to be clear, I'm talking about the macOS side--I see almost no difference between the two operating systems. I'm on a ThinkPad on one side and an M2 Macbook Pro on the other. The only meaningful difference not attributable to something like different screen size is that Apple displays are damn good, and their speakers are otherworldly.
    I was running Asahi/NixOS on a Macbook Air for a long time, and that experience was also top notch--only battery life was a few percentage points worse on NixOS--but the aarch64 software situation and emulation experience were just not there. I expect they've improved a bit since.
    If someone would make a quality laptop that doesn't look like a Honda street racer and has excellent audio, I'd be very happy.
    torben-friis · 1791159748 · focus · HN ↗
    Same here, only switching to a desktop.
    The single thing I had in macOS I can't replicate in Linux is Preview. Other than that, literally everything is better on this side. I expected to have a bad adaptation period, but the experience has truly caught up.
    coldpie · 1791161775 · focus · HN ↗
    Just curious, what distro & DE did you choose? I'm always looking for a friendly distro to recommend to people.
    ziiinq · 1791178562 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
  2. Pesthuf · 1791154272 · focus · HN ↗
    Or a server version. I have an M1 Mac mini as my home server and it really feels like I'm fighting the fact that it's a desktop OS with a GUI and full of components that really, really, really can't deal with being run on a headless system. Not much fun when your super efficient ARM processor suddenly uses 100% CPU for 6 days straight because WindowServer and CoreAudio are having a panic attack due to being unable to find any outputs.
    And so much useless crap you can't turn off without disabling SIP, which it doesn't feel like you're meant to, because who knows what daemon will bring down the entire system when another it expects to be there isn't…
    Marsymars · 1791176360 · focus · HN ↗
    > Or a server version. I have an M1 Mac mini as my home server and it really feels like I'm fighting the fact that it's a desktop OS with a GUI and full of components that really, really, really can't deal with being run on a headless system. Not much fun when your super efficient ARM processor suddenly uses 100% CPU for 6 days straight because WindowServer and CoreAudio are having a panic attack due to being unable to find any outputs.
    In theory I'd prefer a MacBook Neo as a Plex server over my current cheapo Acer laptop with an Alder Lake-N CPU, for lower power draw and better hardware encoding, but in practice, I don't really want to try that with macOS instead of Debian.
    nehal3m · 1791184118 · focus · HN ↗
    Maybe it will behave better if you plug in a little HDMI EDID dongle that tells the OS it's a display. Dirty hack maybe, but if it works it works.
    alwillis · 1791186165 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
  3. etatester · 1791179726 · focus · HN ↗
    Sorry where's the rubble? The OS is pretty thin feature-wise. It's not like certain other OS that literally ship with ads and third-party games.
    Mashimo · 1791187094 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm not a Mac user, but maybe he is talking about Apple Intelligence, as one example :D
6. ant6n · 1791152617 · focus · HN ↗
  We have arrived at the Windows Vista era for Mac OS.
  1. penskymaterial · 1791153255 · focus · HN ↗
    Vista had an undeserved bad rep IMO, it was an important 1.0 milestone for many new technologies and improvements especially in the security model. It effectively was a beta of Windows 7, with 7 being Microsoft's "Snow Leopard".
    Windows 11 still ships with the installer from Vista.
    [deleted] · 1791162543 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    Marsymars · 1791176841 · focus · HN ↗
    Vista was especially good if you had high-memory-use workloads. Vista 64-bit was miles better than XP x64 Edition.
7. samudrijan · 1791155372 · focus · HN ↗
  Looking at you Logic Pro.
8. nunez · 1791156839 · focus · HN ↗
  Windows is a little worse since there is so much more enshittification to disable, but, yeah, _sigh_.
9. cma · 1791158490 · focus · HN ↗
  I remember the OSX animated wallpaper update (that updated lighting as the time of day changed or something) eating up like 10-15% of my macbook air's small drive. After removal they would re-add themselves every update as important protected system files.
10. mrtksn · 1791159273 · focus · HN ↗
  Maybe this just how winning looks like? Apple won but still needs to keep increasing the profits and the stock price. We can expect enshittification to follow since Apple already did exceptionally well with their products therefore the only way forward is to milk users harder and hype the stock with the latest trends. Every winner must walk this path, nothing to do with Apple and that’s why it looks similar to previous winners.
  1. tavavex · 1791159706 · focus · HN ↗
    I think this applies across the industry. All the easy innovations have been innovated, most people own a computer or several, and they get what they want out of it. Enshittification is desperation - businesses can't accept ups and downs, they only need ups, forever. So they will go to increasingly desperate lengths to juice more profits out of the same customer base and dress themselves up to the investors to show that they still got it. We can safely expect most big publicly traded tech companies to go this way earlier or later.
11. ChickadeeBandit · 1791159530 · focus · HN ↗
  And now the war that we'll get in to as they enforce keeping the cruft and then the tools to remove it.
12. GeekyBear · 1791159533 · focus · HN ↗
  > Reminds me of all the de-crufting you've always needed to do when you install Windows.
  To be like Windows, Apple would have to constantly change the OS so that the workarounds no longer function.
  How many times did users find a way to enable local user accounts on Windows, only to have Microsoft force online accounts on them again?
13. [deleted] · 1791162695 · focus · HN ↗
  [deleted]
14. FlowingRiver · 1791167793 · focus · HN ↗
  Apple is going down the same path as Microsoft only at a slower pace and a decade behind. I fear they will turn OSX into something like Win 11 but with slightly better design in the next decade.
  I also realized that I still call it OSX even though it is macOS nowadays.
  1. weird-eye-issue · 1791168630 · focus · HN ↗
    Ever since Snow Leopard it's been downhill
  2. paul7986 · 1791169614 · focus · HN ↗
    Apple Intelligence and even more so Siri isnt worth the disk space. Regular user of chatGPT's Voice/Conversational AI (while driving) and comparably the new Siri is training wheels Voice AI. You can not have a seamless, back and forth conversation with it, so I wont call it Conversational AI.
    Now you may ask who talks to AI? Well this dork does in time I bet more will. Especially, for giving me directions like "That new sub shop is across the street from your favorite McDonalds." No need to fiddle with a phone or look at a screen just drive to a familiar place. I believe talking to AI is safer while driving then us on our phones or messing with screens.
    Marsymars · 1791176652 · focus · HN ↗
    > Now you may ask who talks to AI? Well this dork does in time I bet more will. Especially, for giving me directions like "That new sub shop is across the street from your favorite McDonalds." No need to fiddle with a phone or look at a screen just drive to a familiar place. I believe talking to AI is safer while driving then us on our phones or messing with screens.
    I've been driving for some decades, and probably still have some decades remaining, and these are just never scenarios I've needed, or will ever need. When I get in my car, if I don't know how to get to my destination, I set it on my nav, and then I drive there. My phone stays in my pocket. I never need to use my phone or mess with my screen to find some unknown destination mid-trip.
    paul7986 · 1791181528 · focus · HN ↗
    That's cool everyone is different and I have used my phone in my car since my first iPhone for streaming music and following Google map directions. Now personally myself I dont have to look at my phone as I am now just talking something similar to another person in the car - one who knows it all.
  3. whycome · 1791170589 · focus · HN ↗
    macos seems weird anyway.

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