Ugh. I saw the headline and I was hoping it would be an entry-level, low cost, highly analogue, "looks just like a normal car but electric" car.
Looks like most of the images are concepts. I wonder if the looks will change before launch? And they do say the cost is only a few k above the gas models. Something to wait and see, I guess.
The closest thing I could find to a "normal car but electric" was the Hyundai Kona EV (I know, it's more small-SUV than 'car). So, I bought one.
It's good. There are physical controls for the temperature and volume, and the door handles aren't stupid.
I walked away from a Ford Mach-E because I didn't want to have to explain how to open the doors to ever person I drove for the next five years.
Note that this is a concept, I've never seen an actual production model look anything like the concept.
My father has a hybrid model, 2023 MY I think. It has physical controls for the radio, for AC and related things, for the heated seats, for the various "driver assist" features (like auto high beams, a parking thing (no idea what that is), radar, lane assist). It has a touchscreen, but that only seems to handle the maps, fancy radio controls (think equalizer and such), and other "car settings", whatever those are. You can absolutely drive it without ever having to interact with the touchscreen while doing normal things. I hate touchscreen controls as much as the next HN poster, but I have strictly 0 beef with the Corolla on this front. Door handles and windows work exactly the same as on my 2005 "dumb" car. Hell, I think it even has a physical toggle for the "automatic night mode" on the rear-view mirror, while mine couldn't be "non automatic".
To GP's point, I don't think it ever was an "entry level" car, just a "normal compact" car. I don't see why adding an electric drivetrain would have someone expect it would somehow become a basic, "entry-level" car.
I don't say we don't need those, but the Corolla never seems to have targeted that market, at least here in Europe. There always were plenty similar-sized cheaper and more basic cars from domestic manufacturers. Is it different in the US?
It's a compact sedan (or a compact hatchback, depending on the model) from Toyota, which in Canada at least, makes it an "entry-level" new car.
> I've never seen an actual production model look anything like the concept.
As an exception to this rule, the original Audi TT was surprisingly similar to the concept car and even the initial concept sketches. They had a crazy design idea and just went with it.
> Note that this is a concept, I've never seen an actual production model look anything like the concept.
Yeah the new Nissan Leaf looked horrible as a concept car, very "2003 idea of the future". The actual production version is just a boring SUV
I don't say we don't need those, but the Corolla never seems to have targeted that market, at least here in Europe. There always were plenty similar-sized cheaper and more basic cars from domestic manufacturers. Is it different in the US?
It's a very basic car in the US in terms of its price bracket, not quality. There is just very few new cars under $30K in the States, the manufacturers are milking the SUV / truck market.
The new Chevy Bolt EV is also a "normal car but electric" to me. It's not a car, but it's not a huge SUV either. It has physical controls, you can disable the modem by pulling the OnStar fuse, and it has a decent range and decent fast charging.
I wish they had a variant in a more normal sedan or hatchback than its "PT Cruiser thing", but it is still one of the closest in the US market to a normal car.
It's too bad Europe and Asia get all of the nice EV sedans like Dacia Spring and BYD Dolphin. This article even says Toyota hasn't committed to this Corolla EV in the US market, which is shameful.
I won’t buy Chevy since they removed CarPlay. I’m not paying $10/month for an ability my phone gives me for free (to say nothing of the other integrations CarPlay gives you).
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Was just looking at the Buzz today - unfortunately, seems like it's already dead (and there are some insane incentives out there to move what's left).
I'd love for there to be a cool, affordable electric minivan! The minivan market in the US is...well, definitely not what it was when I was younger, let's put it that way. There are really only four options right now (Pacifica, Sienna, Odyssey, Carnival) and the MSRPs on them have skyrocketed in the past five years.
I was without a car for half a year 2026-02 to 2026-08 and drove a number of electrics from the local car share (where I've had a membership since around 2011). Hyudai Kona, Kia Niro, Chevy Bolt, ...
I had a good camping experience with the Niro. Since Kia doesn't believe in spare tires being default, I was able to stuff sleeping bags, beds and a bunch of other stuff all underneath the hatchback floor, in all that secret space, leaving a ton of room above for everything else.
I like the acceleration and quiet/clean operation of electrics, but in the end I got a 6 speed manual.
Electrics are super dangerous; they accelerate like souped-up competitive track cars. They really need to tone that down: use much smaller motors with less torque, and hack the software to cap the acceleration.
I'm a much calmer driver in a manual. I'm driving for fuel economy, so I'm always in a gear where I have no power. (And in a 6 speed that has about the range of a 5 speed, there is always a good gear to be in at city speeds, where you are at between 1500-1800 RPM). So, I cannot just step on the accelerator on a whim because that will usually do nothing. There is an activation energy for speeding up, due to the chore of shifting down, which discourages doing it casually.
In an electric it's like, oh, I suddenly see this opportunity, and blam: you're on the accelerator and the distance between here and there is erased faster than you can hit backspace.
Buying anything other than Tesla is low IQ, but buying anything other than electric car is just crazy.
Sure there are caveats to each of my statements (maybe you want luxury vehicle or maybe you actually do indeed tow a lot with your pickup truck). But for 95% of drives - Tesla's are vastly superior. Zeekr is getting there with their software tho, but without FSD every car is a joke.
TBF if you driving with kids, you don't want an interesting ride. But my Tesla is pretty sporty tho, far more fun than Chinese electrics that have softened ride.
At one point my car had a firmware update that made the Eco mode sluggish in acceleration. I thought it made perfect sense; being economical in battery use means limiting acceleration. It received so much backlash that the manufacturer had to issue a subsequent update to increase the acceleration cap.
Why don't the idjits just offer two levels of "Eco"?
Maybe people like the regular Eco mode for reasons other than economy; like they use it as a kind of one-pedal driving, since it offers regenerative braking when you back off the accelerator.
There needs to be a mode for those drivers, and a mode for those who are serious about maximizing battery run times.
> Electrics are super dangerous; they accelerate like souped-up competitive track cars. They really need to tone that down: use much smaller motors with less torque, and hack the software to cap the acceleration.
My ID.3 has three "performance modes": Eco, Comfort, and Sport. You only get the souped-up acceleration if you tell it to go into "Sport" mode.
After 2 years of Tesla ownership I got s3xy commander which hacks into CAN. It has kickdown feature where it goes from chill into standard mode if you bottom out accelerator. My Tesla isn't even that fast (technically slowest after semi) and I thought I'm good at controlling accelerator, but I've been using this kickdown mode for a while now instead...
To each their own, but hard to grasp why. It's one the most expensive assets you own. Why wouldn't you want to monitor it at least?
Do you also not have house monitoring (you don't need to control every light switch (which can be useful to have lights on when you get back home), but things like temperature, humidity, power use, air quality, water use/leaks is far cheaper than 1 insurance claim).
Different person, but I don't want a car that has an app precisely because it's so expensive. Cell phones her replaced way more often, and the people running the app stores are very aggressive about not supporting old apps. So within maybe half the life of the car, the app will no longer install.
Yeah I hate apps. My phone barely goes out of date and can't install them. My wife's phone is too old to install any. Is it our fault for not buying new phones when we've taken good care of ours? Nah, the app can go die.
I have those things in my house but it's all local using home assistant and no vendor can monitor it. I can access it remotely but only by vpn.
I'd want the same for my car if I had one. No manufacturer remote access. Any 5G module in it I would remove. Unfortunately the EU mandates ecall now but I'd just put that back in for the yearly car test.
And I agree some sort of open source solution would be nice for cars too. Especially with flood of Chinese EVs some sort of legal+technical framework is needed.
Perhaps even government agency that handles that sort of thing for you.
But until something truly secure and open source comes about - I'll trust Tesla instead.
If you ever have a problem with your Chinese EV, just call the Ministry of State Security. I'm sure they can scan it for fault codes. They're probably already monitoring it.
Haha... We used to have this joke in Holland. Our former secretary of justice made a dirty underhanded deal with a top criminal for more than a million and when it came to light he pretended to "have lost the receipt"
The affair was not too long after the Snowden and Manning cablegate revelations so there were a lot of memes going around saying: "NSA helps minister retrieve lost receipt"
All devices I own can be monitored, maintained and adjusted on the device itself. I prefer that over an app that will eventually not be supported on my phone anymore or one that moves to a subscription based service.
No I don't have house monitoring. I have a metal key that I use to enter it. When I enter the home, there is a rectangular box that I press with my finger, and it turns on the light. The A/C (that also does heating) can be set to a certain temperature with a hardwired box on the wall.
With a car, I prefer a car that I can monitor on the dashboard or center console itself. Fault codes can be read over OBD with standardized equipment. I have owned cars over 15 years old that could still tell me what was wrong without needing an app or subscription.
I work in software, so no, I don't have any of those things. I want everything to be as low-tech as possible, software can only make things worse.
What an insane take. We've been able to monitor our vehicles almost as long as we've had vehicles. You know when you turn your car on and all those pretty lights come up? That's not just because it looks cool.
Had found this in the 2nd generation Nissan Leaf. It would have been perfect but for the slow and non-standard charger.
Looking forward to the Volkswagen ID Polo hitting the used market in a couple of years. Physical buttons, decent range and charge times, and it’s rated to pull reasonable loads.
The 2nd gen Leaf (plus/extended range) is still a great car if you don't need it for road trips or continuous long driving. 200 mile range, built on a no-frills Nissan econobox platform, decent looks, very capable for its size. They are available dirt cheap these days, $10K for perfect condition ones. No fast charging, but you can get 10-90% in 5 hours of level 2 charging. It even has a heat pump heater, but no battery cooling or heating, so works best in mild climates.
Physical buttons. Carplay. 0-60 in 6.5 seconds and wide enough tires, so it can keep up.
Kia Niro is where the Koreans have invested their stuipd; a stateful panel in which volume and temperature knobs are multiplexed, and and so are tactile-free touch places on the panel between them. And it won't stay in the same mode; it changes it behind your back. You think the knob is volume because you last tweaked it a minute ago, but nope, you are messing with the temperature now.
Look into the Nissan Leaf, one of the early EV models. I don't know what the 2026 is like but my 2021 has 220-ish miles of range and is... an electric car.
It's a car. That's electric.
Physical buttons. Normal doors. Normal design. Normal handles. Normal controls. Drives great and accelerates better than an economy gas car.
As a bonus, that means almost the entire car is standard. Other than the electric drive train, a regular mechanic can work on everything else: tires, wheels, brakes, suspension, etc.
It's given us basically zero problems. Maintenance so far is a few minor recall items (free fixes) and a tire rotation. We bought it new during COVID.
Only downside to the 2021 model was the CHaDemO (or however you caps it) plug, which is obsolescent. I think recent models have CCS. There is a converter dongle and if I fast charged often I'd pick one up. Apparently they work but they're a little pricey since unfortunately it's not just a simple plug converter. It's a different signaling and locking system, so it has to be a smart dongle.
The 2026 Leaf made some big improvements. Liquid cooled battery, faster charging, longer range.
It has the usual modern car cost cutting where steering wheel inputs are plastic panels with mysterious capacitive regions and no feedback so you can't feel if you've successfully pressed anything, whether you pressed the right thing, or if your fingertips are too dry and don't register. Most of the center console inputs are replaced with a screen with another row of cheap capacitive touch icons below it.
Charging is behind the times again with an awkward 2-port arrangement, but it's different from the previous gen's J1772 L1/L2 and CHAdeMO for L3 up to 50 kW.
For 2026 they replaced the CHAdeMO port with NACS, supporting a maximum of 150 kW L3 charging, but it still uses a separate J1772 port for L1/L2 unlike every other car where the NACS port does both.
All things considered it's a solid entry level EV.
There used to be huge FUD campaigns against Leafs, and against not many others. Perhaps because Leaf at face value could have rendered entry trim Model S and Model 3 pointless.
The old release really deserved that campaign. It wasn't just FUD. Between the lack of a good battery management system, meaning the batteries were the ones that died relatively quickly; and the low range, which was maybe enough to get you to work in back for most people, but it didn't leave a lot of headroom for any other errand you might run. They were a not great car.
Don't get me wrong, my brother has one and it is an okay car. It's just not great. There are a number of limitations which is why he gave it to my mom and drives a bolt. (the use value of a leaf is poor enough that it isn't worth trying to sell.)
Any other electric car is suffering from the leaf's bad reputation, and yet they don't have the problems I named.
I looked into this before getting the 2021 model. Apparently it still didn't have liquid cooling but they'd updated the battery chemistry to be more robust. So far it still holds 100% its original charge after 30K miles.
I live in Ohio though, so not somewhere super hot. I would have thought twice before buying that car in e.g. Phoenix.
I don't mind analogue buttons or anything and I think screens can kind of suck especially with Android and auto manufacturer abandonware, but with the Tesla I now own I'm always wondering what people are using all these buttons for - thinking back to my previous Hondas. In the Tesla I've got climate control, heated seats, and music/navigation. Some of the other features like adjusting mirrors I can use the multi-purpose buttons for in the correct context. On any given drive I hop in, put my phone on the charger and don't use it, and then just drive.
What am I missing? Or is it just that folks want buttons? Is it the design?
What you are missing is you can press the button blind while you are looking at the road, the button merely closes a circuit and always works.
But I'm talking beyond just the buttons. Pure analog. No telemetry. No cellular connection. Real rack and pinion again. Real gauges. No drive by wire wherever possible. Maybe the actual ev motor output can be controlled with a simple switch in the circuit vs an entire ecu with throttle profiles and all the bullshit. Basically, your car in 2003, with the gas engine replaced with an electric motor. Pure car. Dead simple systems. Easy access engine bays.
It isn't happening again. These things are ipads on wheels that try and surveil you and come up with datapoints they can somehow make some money off of.
I'm not really concerned with hitting the button blind but I understand the desire to have no "tracking" or anything like that. Volume in the Tesla at least there is a button and you can configure some of those things with software. I know the heated seats and climate control are done via the iPad as you call it but I don't have to look at those. Once you hit it enough you just know where it is, or you can use voice control if you're not that comfortable. I can also text on my iPhone pretty well without looking at the keyboard.
But I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with all these gauges and stuff. I have 0 interest in trying to repair my car or understand how any of it works. I just want to get in, have it be super comfortable, everything works and it gets me from A to B pretty fast. The only gauge I care about is the speed at which the car is traveling. Well the battery too I guess but if I'm taking a trip where that's of concern the car handles the stops for me.
I get that people do enjoy that stuff which is super cool - I'm not hating on it, but figured I'd just provide a different perspective maybe. For me the biggest concern is just this dog shit Android software and abandonware that all the manufacturers create (except Tesla funny enough - I'm not a shill or anything, Elon sucks and I'll never buy another one because of him) which I think is probably the biggest negative to the iPad-ification. Thankfully there's Android Auto and Apple Car Play but still the computers in the cars can be underpowered to use those.
> What you are missing is you can press the button blind while you are looking at the road, the button merely closes a circuit and always works.
Not just that: my hands get dry enough sometimes that my phone's touch interface doesn't work reliably, in which case, I'd expect a touchscreen interface in a newer car would face similar problems. Physical buttons don't have that problem.
> Maybe the actual ev motor output can be controlled with a simple switch in the circuit vs an entire ecu with throttle profiles and all the bullshit. Basically, your car in 2003, with the gas engine replaced with an electric motor.
Your gas car in 2003 probably directly connects the accelerator pedal to the throttle ... but it also has an entire ecu with a whole bunch of stuff to figure out how much fuel to add given the throttle position / airflow and also almost certainly has the ecu controlling ignition too. Even my 1981 van has an ECU to sets fuel volume, although it doesn't have electronic ignition or water cooling.
You can open the throttle all the way, and if the fuel volume doesn't change, you won't get much in the way of extra vrooming.
That said, as simple as possible, but no simpler is a good goal.
Diesels often don't actually have a throttle like gas engines do. The accelerator pedal on a diesel is not connected to a throttle body regulating air intake... instead the air intake is classically wide open (but modern diesels do have airflow controls to adjust emissions profiles) and the accelerator position allows more or less fuel. If your ECU controls fuel delivery (as ECUs have been doing in gas cars since at least the 1970s) and the pedal's job is to ask for more or less fuel, it's going to be connected to the ECU... You can tug on a cable and turn that into an electrical signal at the ECU (or wherever) or you can turn it into an electrical signal at the pedal. Seems simpler to do it at the pedal.
A gas car has the pedal setup to open the throttle valve and let in more air and then some additional system for more air is more fuel... an ECU in open loop measures the airflow and engine temperature and triggers the injectors for a certain amount, in closed loop it will read the o2 sensor and adjust fueling to get the right mix.
If you move to drive by wire, now you have an electrical signal for the pedal, but you didn't necessarily simplify the system because you also have to add a way for the ecu to control the throttle valve or otherwise regulate intake airflow.
Yes exactly, "fuel follows air" (have worked on ECU firmware, and current ride is a 2003 with a wire between the pedal and throttle). As you said, a sensor (and computer) measures air -- volume, temperature, etc. -- estimates oxygen content, and (of course there are many other factors) then calculates how much fuel to squirt in.
I used to race cars, and I still have the old 2003 5-speed turbo, but the idea of an electric car without all the hoses and fluids and spinning pieces is attractive.
Googling for C-MDPS reveals some instructive diagrams, wherein: The motor that applies force to the steering system is mounted on the steering column shaft. It supplies steering input in a manner like one's hands do.
(The rest of it can be hydraulic or electric or some combination of both.)
Of course the buttons are for doing things. The things you listed are pretty much all the traditional buttons. I can remember as a kid paying attention to the center panel between the foot wells (in a Corolla!) - it was pretty much just heating/AC, radio, and a few miscellaneous things like hazard lights. It's no airplane cockpit or space shuttle.
Also if you had electric door locks and windows (we didn't) the driver's door had 4 window levers and a child lock button while everyone else had their own window lever.
I hear ya. I can't speak to other cars but in my Tesla I never have to fiddle with any of that stuff. I just press the button on the screen for example to modulate the climate control even when the car is in motion - I don't need to look at all. There's no feedback (haptic feedback would be a nice improvement actually). In the rare instance that I need to do something "complicated" I'd just put the car into the Autosteer mode. But that's only something that would really be done on the highway in a safe manner. In my older cars I found using the buttons to switch between say albums or something that to not really be that much easier. Maybe slightly worse.
On the other hand, boy when I get a rental car there are so many buttons to mess around with it's like going backwards in time (for me) in terms of ease of use. Even something like having to turn on/off the car itself is now a chore. Why do I need to even turn the car on? It should just always work. Obviously part of that is "it's a new car" but a lot of that stuff seems very needlessly complex. I'm not talking about turning the heat on or off even though a lot of those implementations seem way more complicated than they need be (engineers gonna engineer and over-complicate things unless someone stops them) but other random things.
I have a Suzuki Grand Vitara 2010, and from left to right, the essentials buttons are:
- Window controls and lock/unlock
- Power mirrors adjustment (after someone else has driven the car)
- Light (it has auto mode)
- Steering wheel control for the head unit (vol +/-,...). It also has cruise but I don't use that
- Wiper and washers
- AC adjustment. It's a knob for temperature with 2 buttons inside (auto mode toggle and off)
- Fresh/recycled air switch
- AC/ventilation switch
- Ventilation speed. It's also a knob with 2 buttons, but I only remember the mode one (to switch between front/front and feet/heater/...)
- A defrost button
- ESP (ABS) disable button
- Window/door lock/ on the passenger door.
There's nothing else. For any of those buttons I would hate to use a touch screen.
The Tesla I have has a few buttons for those things. For the other items where buttons don’t exist I don’t really need to use vision. The digital button is just right there but I think haptic feedback would be an improvement too. I think people also underestimate how much they look even when using physical buttons. You can’t really help it. You’ll glance down as you adjust that knob from warm to cool, maybe you like it with 4 indicator lights instead of 5 so you’ll just take a peak there. Nobody has their eyes on the road 100% of the time.
Some of the buttons you mentioned you have dedicated buttons for but at least for the Tesla some of those adjustments you do while parked and just swap the button mode. It allows for multi-use buttons which is pretty cool.
I’m not arguing against buttons or something to be clear, just sharing my experience. It seems like some other cars have a lot of unnecessary ones.
I absolutely need to be able to turn off the headlights when driving on a RORO ferry at night. Auto headlights are great, but for some reason they don't read the WSDOT sign that tells us to turn off our lights; not very smart really. Having a stalk or a knob for wipers is basic and easy; again auto wipers are pretty nice, but sometimes I want to force it because the auto system is being silly.
I really like having dedicated buttons to disable driving assistance. It's handy when you're going through a drive through and you want to disable parking beeps that remind you not to run into the building. It's also handy if lane following gets annoying when road conditions demand ignoring the lane lines. I think NHTSA pushed to remove easy access to disable assistance though?
I don't mind using a screen for things I don't need to do while in motion. Like if I want to set if the car should beep when I lock the doors, or how many times the blinker should blink if I tap it and didn't mean it but it wants to be helpful... screens are wonderful for that. But if I need to focus on a screen to do things while I'm driving, I've lost focus on the surroundings.
No one actually wants highly analog car. Also it's illegal to sell in most countries. Mandatory cameras, safety features, emergency assistance etc
If it makes you feel better, this is a concept. They probably won't produce the vehicle they showed, especially since customers are making it known that they want regular buttons/door handles/HVAC vents/etc.
The exterior design language is the same as their current newer models like the C-HR or even the GR GT. The interior is like any other concept car. I don't like it either, but it looks like a normal Toyota.
The article does say that the electric Corolla is to be priced at $30k, about $3,000 more than the hybrid and $5,000 more than the gas-powered one. That may not be objectively 'low cost', but it's comparable in cost to the lowest-cost new EVs, and probably similar total cost of ownership to the hybrid/gas cars when considering cheaper fuelling.
Maybe they could shave $3-5000 off the cost by not giving it a "high-tech interior", going completely against the design philosophy of the car in the first place.
That's the entire modern, Tesla-inspired design ethos: remove all knobs, remove all buttons, remove all levers, remove the PRNDL, remove all the gauges, replace it all with controls on a big iPad in the center, and call the spartan interior "high-tech"
Omitting the cellular modem would be a nice way to save a few bucks, and would save me the effort of pulling the fuse or disassembling the dash in order to silence Internet traffic to and from the car. But how will Toyota sell my driving habits to car insurance companies then?
I'm not in the US, but here in Europe Toyota's hold their value really well (too well I'd say). Is that reflected in the US financing rates, so you can get it for really low payments?
It is low cost! The Tesla Model 3 was twice the cost almost a decade ago.
BTW: The price premium for electric is offset by the lower cost of electricity, and the fact that electricity's cost is much less volatile than gas.
Depends on where you live. In states like Connecticut, or certain areas of California (PG&E Bay Area customers), the ROI is very long or simply doesn't pencil out at all. I think for Connecticut, which has high electricity prices but low gas prices, it's just net negative. For me in SF, despite high gas prices the ROI is just too long (5-10 years?), and that's before factoring in the ~$5000+ required for updating my electrical box, which is a conservative estimate because now the city requires the meter to be outside the house, whereas it's currently in the garage.
Until your current car dies, ges old or whatever happens, you decide you need a new one anyway. At that point the ROI is not the total cost of the car but the difference compared to your alternatives.
Yes, the difference. I'm not comparing keeping an ICE to purchasing a new EV. The premium for EVs is $5-10k or more relative to ICE models, and the $5k is being charitable.
This used to be true, but gas is $6.30/gallon in California now with no particular reason to think it is coming back down. I haven't actually re-done the numbers, but I have to imagine the ~40% increase in gas prices over the last year have significantly moved the needle in CA.
I drive an EV because in every dimension I care about it’s a superior vehicle. They drive better, sound better, and use a fundamental force rather than flintstone fire smoke stink. It’s time to move on from pouring distilled dinosaur juice into your explosion mobile and join the Maxwell equation crowd. The upgrade of your electric is a one time cost that will enable you to use an EV until you move, and improves your home value, so hard to count it into the cost of the car.
Plus they last basically forever and require almost no maintenance. I like being able to never change oil, tune up, belts, whatever every few months. Every few years I get the cabin filter changed and that’s it. In 10 years the battery might be reduced by 20%, and I might replace the batteries around 15-20 years out, but I expect to literally drive it into the ground. (Mine is a Tesla with unlimited super charging for life, and I live next to a super charger)
I have family overseas and will likely buy them one of these EV Camrys. If they’re good, I might get one for my daughter. At $30k it’s fairly affordable.
I'm not anti EV. I would love to own an EV. I just can't justify the expense. In my case a big part of it is the cost of upgrading the electrical, otherwise I might be inclined to pay the premium.
However upgrading the electrical is a capital improvement process on your home isn’t it? That’s an investment that doesn’t deprecate like the car, no? It also increases the cost basis of the home which can have tax benefits in the long term.
I'll point out one area that EVs are inferior in lifespan - calendar life of the battery. I use a bicycle for day to day and take the car only on road trips so I only end up driving about 5k mi/yr or so, maybe 10k if I roam far. At that pace the 2% capacity loss per calendar year (even higher in hot climates) will total any EV I buy long before an ICE vehicle has age issues. ICE vehicles without defects do not creep towards engine failure or transmission failure little by little like EVs do, or at least do so at a pace far slower than EVs, as long as they are driven at least once a month to prevent issues ICE vehicles can get in storage.
Unfortunately EVs still have a ways to go to catch up to my use case of buying 10-15 yr old vehicles with 100k mi for $5k and taking them to remote trails where a 550mi range is useful for safety. Such vehicles can be screened for design defects and are therefore more reliable than new vehicles - see the Toyota V6 recall for an example that even a sterling reputation isn't as strong a guarantee as just waiting and seeing. Maybe the EV range will catch up in my life but I wouldn't expect the cost of those high range vehicles to catch up for a long time, and by the time an EV is well-used and in my price range it will no longer be a long range EV what with the capacity degradation. See how this use case perfectly hits all the negatives of EVs? It's not that uncommon a use case in North America among us dirtbag wilderness enthusiasts. I don't doubt EVs are strictly better for many people though and am very interested to see how their long term reliability and cost fares as they trickle into the 10+ yr used market I participate in.
Btw my diy oil change takes 20 minutes and costs $20 all in and during that time I do an annual safety once-over which an EV would also require. So almost 0 net time involved and a negligible amount of money compared to things like tires which cost me 5x as much per year, a number that apparently is higher for EVs since they use tires more quickly afaik. Plus many EVs seem to be much harder (intentionally so as a business strategy it seems to me) to do DIY repairs on - wrenchers probably won't move over for a long time either.
Most modern EVs have superior battery management systems and batteries, and are generally limited in loss by discharge and recharge not specifically calendar time. They’re not alkaline batteries. The time degradation comes from use primarily . Solid state batteries hope to improve that as well. Batteries also are almost entirely recyclable because the degradation isn’t wear per se as much as chemical changes. As a machine they are absurdly simple - copper coils; magnets, and electrical potential - while ICE are insane Rube Goldberg machines. An EV can probably operate 100+ years with the same mechanicals and electrical, and a swap of batteries periodically, and the battery swap need not be expensive - in fact one mode for fast charging proposed has been racking new battery racks at the charging stations because for the provider the batteries are all the same and can be recycled as needed in bulk at low cost.
Does that mean in 2026 that all ICE use cases are replaced? No, and with the aggressively anti science US administration it’s been set back by at least 8 years - the time it will take to rebuild momentum lost, research discarded, investment displaced. But there’s no reason beyond our lack of imagination to believe ICE will be on the road in 50 years in any use case.
I'm trying to disentangle that EVs wear out from both usage as well as calendar time, you say it's usage "primarily" but you're assuming a certain use case there. With zero driving, top of the line battery management, and doing everything right it's something like 3% capacity loss per year in hot climates. My point is empirical - in a hot climate a light user will have to spend $10k to replace their battery in 15 years even if they rarely drive, while an ICE will not if the transmission and engine were designed well and maintained. Your point is theoretical and what use are theories that don't match observations? I don't dispute that EVs are simpler and more environmentally friendly but there are many cases (too hot climate, too cold climate, too little usage, need for range) where they are more expensive, more disposable and generally inferior.
Saying ICE will be off the road in 50 years assumes technological advances that have not yet arrived despite massive research investment. What you say about easy recycling may be true but when it comes down to it we don't have cheap battery swaps yet despite many trying. Don't get me wrong I hope for all our sake that happens, I'm just objecting to your initial comment having the vibe that EVs are a panacea and that saving on oil changes is superior on net. There's a lot of nice ideas in this comment but it will take seeing for me to believe - a 10 year old car for $5k that isn't coming up on an expensive new battery that costs more than the car is worth.
A regular household plug should be more than enough unless you want to use your home as a quick pit-stop between two long rides. (e.g. drive 150km from work to home, then drive 300km to your holiday home for the weekend an hour later).
Typical EVs nowadays get about 6 km per kWh, the average driver in the US drives about 54 km. A US home typically has 15A plugs, or 20A in the kitchen/garage. That's 1.8 - 2.4 kW. Even at 80% safe continuous charge, you'll be averaging 1.5 kW at minimum. So that's just 6 hours of daily charging at minimum.
If you have a garage and plug in when you get home, your car typically sits there from 8PM to 8AM for 12 hours. That's already double the time necessary to charge 100% of your driving at home, at the minimum charging speeds equivalent to a microwave or washing machine. And you'll typically have much more time with the car plugged in on weekends and home-work days.
A 5k upgrade to the electrical box might be a good idea, but it's definitely not necessary for most normal EV users.
As for ROI, a Corolla might get 20 km per liter, in Connecticut that's 6c per km. An EV even at the 29c per kWh is just 4.8c per km which is 20% cheaper. If you have some solar panels you can cut that figure by another 65%.
Not to mention the lower maintenance costs for EVs and the rebates various local governments give.
It's not just that. EV charging and solar resources have improved while fossil fuels have become more expensive. The maths is very regional. Some countries are better at producing electricity or oil than others.
"BTW: The price premium for electric is offset by the lower cost of electricity…"
How about depreciation though?
My sense is that after so many years (5?, 8?) an EV is going to be desperate for a new battery. That's, what, $5K (10K?) or more? It's like if an ICE car needed a new engine after 65K miles.
I assume the resell value for an 8-year old electric needing a new battery is close to zilch.
I want an EV, but they have to come way down in price.
There is also a chance I won't buy a car without knobs. Car software has been historically so bad. My latest doesn't have a volume knob so my front passengers can't turn the volume at all (the UX is sliding the screen from the side to get navigation bars to appear which contain a volume button that you have to drag laterally - no increase/decrease software buttons).
Otherwise it's a great car and that is literally the one drawback.
I must be the minority surely, but given the choice between knobs and screen, knobs are the deciding factor. Even if it's more expensive, it's UX that you use permanently while operating heavy machinery!
Provided there's steering wheel and stalk controls, what do I really need to adjust on a center console while driving? I just want a big nav map or camera feed there.
My 2004 Prius had AC, radio and defogger controls on the steering wheel. I could control all of it without taking my hands off the wheel.
The only notable thing I couldn't do was adjust the fan level if it was on automatic, but I could turn it off.
IMO if you might need it while driving it should be on the wheel or the stalks. Center console? That's for my passenger to mess with only, or for when I'm stopped.
I mean that's probably a perfectly nice solution too, it doesn't all have to be as physical controls on a center console. It just needs to be easily accessible physical controls which I can interact with through feel without taking my eyes off the road. As long as it's not on a touch screen and not those shitty haptic capacitive buttons I don't care whether it's on a steering wheel or on a center console
Id argue by an order of magnitude. Knobs require cables, connectors and assembly; they also require dedicated robots and/or a human to test them in the assembly line.
To be honest in my opinion car design got so boring in general since about 20 years ago that it's nice to see it mixed up with these hyper futuristic concept designs.
It makes the future feel fun, and feels like a return to adventurous aesthetics for the pure sake of it. At the very least, it's noticably different and interesting. I hope architecture follows suit.
I think there's a surprisingly large market for an EV that's basically "a Corolla, but electric" rather than another attempt to make the interior look like a concept car from 2035
It's not even "concept car from 2035", it's "concept car from 2015 trying to look like a car from a sci-fi story set in 2035"
And I agree. People like normal cars, people like normal door handles, people like A/C and heater knobs, people like PRNDL levers. None of that has changed just because the drivetrain uses a different kind of engine. Why is it so hard to make that, but electric? Why does "electric motor" somehow mean "all controls must be on the iPad"?
I hope it's just a phase that's about to reverse. Maybe they felt the need to go all futuristic design to cash in on how electric drivetrains used to feel futuristic. Maybe, as electric drivetrains just become "normal, boring" technology, we get options with normal designs too.
Please. I am begging EV manufacturers to just make a normal car. The body looks fine but why does every EV have to have the absolute worst cabin ever designed?
zacharycohn · · focus · HN ↗
alphabeta3r56 · · focus · HN ↗
dpacmittal · · focus · HN ↗
wakamoleguy · · focus · HN ↗
NewJazz · · focus · HN ↗
zymhan · · focus · HN ↗
sgarrity · · focus · HN ↗
The closest thing I could find to a "normal car but electric" was the Hyundai Kona EV (I know, it's more small-SUV than 'car). So, I bought one.
It's good. There are physical controls for the temperature and volume, and the door handles aren't stupid.
I walked away from a Ford Mach-E because I didn't want to have to explain how to open the doors to ever person I drove for the next five years.
vladvasiliu · · focus · HN ↗
Note that this is a concept, I've never seen an actual production model look anything like the concept.
My father has a hybrid model, 2023 MY I think. It has physical controls for the radio, for AC and related things, for the heated seats, for the various "driver assist" features (like auto high beams, a parking thing (no idea what that is), radar, lane assist). It has a touchscreen, but that only seems to handle the maps, fancy radio controls (think equalizer and such), and other "car settings", whatever those are. You can absolutely drive it without ever having to interact with the touchscreen while doing normal things. I hate touchscreen controls as much as the next HN poster, but I have strictly 0 beef with the Corolla on this front. Door handles and windows work exactly the same as on my 2005 "dumb" car. Hell, I think it even has a physical toggle for the "automatic night mode" on the rear-view mirror, while mine couldn't be "non automatic".
To GP's point, I don't think it ever was an "entry level" car, just a "normal compact" car. I don't see why adding an electric drivetrain would have someone expect it would somehow become a basic, "entry-level" car.
I don't say we don't need those, but the Corolla never seems to have targeted that market, at least here in Europe. There always were plenty similar-sized cheaper and more basic cars from domestic manufacturers. Is it different in the US?
badc0ffee · · focus · HN ↗
buran77 · · focus · HN ↗
As an exception to this rule, the original Audi TT was surprisingly similar to the concept car and even the initial concept sketches. They had a crazy design idea and just went with it.
addaon · · focus · HN ↗
ac29 · · focus · HN ↗
Yeah the new Nissan Leaf looked horrible as a concept car, very "2003 idea of the future". The actual production version is just a boring SUV
stasomatic · · focus · HN ↗
It's a very basic car in the US in terms of its price bracket, not quality. There is just very few new cars under $30K in the States, the manufacturers are milking the SUV / truck market.
kaladin-jasnah · · focus · HN ↗
WorldMaker · · focus · HN ↗
It's too bad Europe and Asia get all of the nice EV sedans like Dacia Spring and BYD Dolphin. This article even says Toyota hasn't committed to this Corolla EV in the US market, which is shameful.
sailfast · · focus · HN ↗
anamax · · focus · HN ↗
kyleee · · focus · HN ↗
arijun · · focus · HN ↗
Elidrake24 · · focus · HN ↗
drop_star · · focus · HN ↗
kpil · · focus · HN ↗
Not quite normal but not "future" - the Renault 5 E-tech electric is nice but I don't think it's available in the US.
Brendinooo · · focus · HN ↗
It was too expensive!
twoodfin · · focus · HN ↗
My wife bought one of the first edition models. Other than the lousy range, it’s incredibly cool.
Brendinooo · · focus · HN ↗
twoodfin · · focus · HN ↗
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dzhiurgis · · focus · HN ↗
kazinator · · focus · HN ↗
I had a good camping experience with the Niro. Since Kia doesn't believe in spare tires being default, I was able to stuff sleeping bags, beds and a bunch of other stuff all underneath the hatchback floor, in all that secret space, leaving a ton of room above for everything else.
I like the acceleration and quiet/clean operation of electrics, but in the end I got a 6 speed manual.
Electrics are super dangerous; they accelerate like souped-up competitive track cars. They really need to tone that down: use much smaller motors with less torque, and hack the software to cap the acceleration.
I'm a much calmer driver in a manual. I'm driving for fuel economy, so I'm always in a gear where I have no power. (And in a 6 speed that has about the range of a 5 speed, there is always a good gear to be in at city speeds, where you are at between 1500-1800 RPM). So, I cannot just step on the accelerator on a whim because that will usually do nothing. There is an activation energy for speeding up, due to the chore of shifting down, which discourages doing it casually. In an electric it's like, oh, I suddenly see this opportunity, and blam: you're on the accelerator and the distance between here and there is erased faster than you can hit backspace.
dzhiurgis · · focus · HN ↗
Sure there are caveats to each of my statements (maybe you want luxury vehicle or maybe you actually do indeed tow a lot with your pickup truck). But for 95% of drives - Tesla's are vastly superior. Zeekr is getting there with their software tho, but without FSD every car is a joke.
kazinator · · focus · HN ↗
dzhiurgis · · focus · HN ↗
kazinator · · focus · HN ↗
kccqzy · · focus · HN ↗
kazinator · · focus · HN ↗
Maybe people like the regular Eco mode for reasons other than economy; like they use it as a kind of one-pedal driving, since it offers regenerative braking when you back off the accelerator.
There needs to be a mode for those drivers, and a mode for those who are serious about maximizing battery run times.
gwd · · focus · HN ↗
My ID.3 has three "performance modes": Eco, Comfort, and Sport. You only get the souped-up acceleration if you tell it to go into "Sport" mode.
dzhiurgis · · focus · HN ↗
artisinal · · focus · HN ↗
dzhiurgis · · focus · HN ↗
Do you also not have house monitoring (you don't need to control every light switch (which can be useful to have lights on when you get back home), but things like temperature, humidity, power use, air quality, water use/leaks is far cheaper than 1 insurance claim).
mook · · focus · HN ↗
dzhiurgis · · focus · HN ↗
mahboi · · focus · HN ↗
wolvoleo · · focus · HN ↗
I'd want the same for my car if I had one. No manufacturer remote access. Any 5G module in it I would remove. Unfortunately the EU mandates ecall now but I'd just put that back in for the yearly car test.
dzhiurgis · · focus · HN ↗
And I agree some sort of open source solution would be nice for cars too. Especially with flood of Chinese EVs some sort of legal+technical framework is needed.
Perhaps even government agency that handles that sort of thing for you.
But until something truly secure and open source comes about - I'll trust Tesla instead.
artisinal · · focus · HN ↗
wolvoleo · · focus · HN ↗
The affair was not too long after the Snowden and Manning cablegate revelations so there were a lot of memes going around saying: "NSA helps minister retrieve lost receipt"
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Teeven" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Teeven
artisinal · · focus · HN ↗
No I don't have house monitoring. I have a metal key that I use to enter it. When I enter the home, there is a rectangular box that I press with my finger, and it turns on the light. The A/C (that also does heating) can be set to a certain temperature with a hardwired box on the wall.
With a car, I prefer a car that I can monitor on the dashboard or center console itself. Fault codes can be read over OBD with standardized equipment. I have owned cars over 15 years old that could still tell me what was wrong without needing an app or subscription.
dzhiurgis · · focus · HN ↗
IDK what apps do you even mean as the car can unlocked and controlled by simple public key exchange. Internet connectivity is optional.
aacid · · focus · HN ↗
coldpie · · focus · HN ↗
thesuitonym · · focus · HN ↗
mahboi · · focus · HN ↗
iamEAP · · focus · HN ↗
Looking forward to the Volkswagen ID Polo hitting the used market in a couple of years. Physical buttons, decent range and charge times, and it’s rated to pull reasonable loads.
ak217 · · focus · HN ↗
Physical buttons. Carplay. 0-60 in 6.5 seconds and wide enough tires, so it can keep up.
zorobo · · focus · HN ↗
kazinator · · focus · HN ↗
swiftcoder · · focus · HN ↗
veunes · · focus · HN ↗
theshrike79 · · focus · HN ↗
api · · focus · HN ↗
It's a car. That's electric.
Physical buttons. Normal doors. Normal design. Normal handles. Normal controls. Drives great and accelerates better than an economy gas car.
As a bonus, that means almost the entire car is standard. Other than the electric drive train, a regular mechanic can work on everything else: tires, wheels, brakes, suspension, etc.
It's given us basically zero problems. Maintenance so far is a few minor recall items (free fixes) and a tire rotation. We bought it new during COVID.
Only downside to the 2021 model was the CHaDemO (or however you caps it) plug, which is obsolescent. I think recent models have CCS. There is a converter dongle and if I fast charged often I'd pick one up. Apparently they work but they're a little pricey since unfortunately it's not just a simple plug converter. It's a different signaling and locking system, so it has to be a smart dongle.
The Leaf is massively underrated IMO.
wlesieutre · · focus · HN ↗
It has the usual modern car cost cutting where steering wheel inputs are plastic panels with mysterious capacitive regions and no feedback so you can't feel if you've successfully pressed anything, whether you pressed the right thing, or if your fingertips are too dry and don't register. Most of the center console inputs are replaced with a screen with another row of cheap capacitive touch icons below it.
Charging is behind the times again with an awkward 2-port arrangement, but it's different from the previous gen's J1772 L1/L2 and CHAdeMO for L3 up to 50 kW.
For 2026 they replaced the CHAdeMO port with NACS, supporting a maximum of 150 kW L3 charging, but it still uses a separate J1772 port for L1/L2 unlike every other car where the NACS port does both.
All things considered it's a solid entry level EV.
numpad0 · · focus · HN ↗
bluGill · · focus · HN ↗
Don't get me wrong, my brother has one and it is an okay car. It's just not great. There are a number of limitations which is why he gave it to my mom and drives a bolt. (the use value of a leaf is poor enough that it isn't worth trying to sell.)
Any other electric car is suffering from the leaf's bad reputation, and yet they don't have the problems I named.
api · · focus · HN ↗
I live in Ohio though, so not somewhere super hot. I would have thought twice before buying that car in e.g. Phoenix.
asdff · · focus · HN ↗
ericmay · · focus · HN ↗
What am I missing? Or is it just that folks want buttons? Is it the design?
asdff · · focus · HN ↗
But I'm talking beyond just the buttons. Pure analog. No telemetry. No cellular connection. Real rack and pinion again. Real gauges. No drive by wire wherever possible. Maybe the actual ev motor output can be controlled with a simple switch in the circuit vs an entire ecu with throttle profiles and all the bullshit. Basically, your car in 2003, with the gas engine replaced with an electric motor. Pure car. Dead simple systems. Easy access engine bays.
It isn't happening again. These things are ipads on wheels that try and surveil you and come up with datapoints they can somehow make some money off of.
ericmay · · focus · HN ↗
But I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with all these gauges and stuff. I have 0 interest in trying to repair my car or understand how any of it works. I just want to get in, have it be super comfortable, everything works and it gets me from A to B pretty fast. The only gauge I care about is the speed at which the car is traveling. Well the battery too I guess but if I'm taking a trip where that's of concern the car handles the stops for me.
I get that people do enjoy that stuff which is super cool - I'm not hating on it, but figured I'd just provide a different perspective maybe. For me the biggest concern is just this dog shit Android software and abandonware that all the manufacturers create (except Tesla funny enough - I'm not a shill or anything, Elon sucks and I'll never buy another one because of him) which I think is probably the biggest negative to the iPad-ification. Thankfully there's Android Auto and Apple Car Play but still the computers in the cars can be underpowered to use those.
asdff · · focus · HN ↗
creaturemachine · · focus · HN ↗
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asdff · · focus · HN ↗
creaturemachine · · focus · HN ↗
Now I'm imagining drivers swapping tubes as they stop for a quick charge.
atmavatar · · focus · HN ↗
Not just that: my hands get dry enough sometimes that my phone's touch interface doesn't work reliably, in which case, I'd expect a touchscreen interface in a newer car would face similar problems. Physical buttons don't have that problem.
toast0 · · focus · HN ↗
Your gas car in 2003 probably directly connects the accelerator pedal to the throttle ... but it also has an entire ecu with a whole bunch of stuff to figure out how much fuel to add given the throttle position / airflow and also almost certainly has the ecu controlling ignition too. Even my 1981 van has an ECU to sets fuel volume, although it doesn't have electronic ignition or water cooling.
You can open the throttle all the way, and if the fuel volume doesn't change, you won't get much in the way of extra vrooming.
That said, as simple as possible, but no simpler is a good goal.
bluGill · · focus · HN ↗
toast0 · · focus · HN ↗
A gas car has the pedal setup to open the throttle valve and let in more air and then some additional system for more air is more fuel... an ECU in open loop measures the airflow and engine temperature and triggers the injectors for a certain amount, in closed loop it will read the o2 sensor and adjust fueling to get the right mix.
If you move to drive by wire, now you have an electrical signal for the pedal, but you didn't necessarily simplify the system because you also have to add a way for the ecu to control the throttle valve or otherwise regulate intake airflow.
thr0w__4w4y · · focus · HN ↗
I used to race cars, and I still have the old 2003 5-speed turbo, but the idea of an electric car without all the hoses and fluids and spinning pieces is attractive.
itsmek · · focus · HN ↗
blt · · focus · HN ↗
Nit: electric power steering is still rack and pinion. The old system is hydraulic vs electric.
OptionOfT · · focus · HN ↗
ssl-3 · · focus · HN ↗
Googling for C-MDPS reveals some instructive diagrams, wherein: The motor that applies force to the steering system is mounted on the steering column shaft. It supplies steering input in a manner like one's hands do.
(The rest of it can be hydraulic or electric or some combination of both.)
someonebaggy · · focus · HN ↗
Also if you had electric door locks and windows (we didn't) the driver's door had 4 window levers and a child lock button while everyone else had their own window lever.
AnnikaL · · focus · HN ↗
- turning the air conditioning up or down (or off) while I'm driving and feel too hot/cold
- adjusting the volume of music or the radio while driving
- turning on the radio
- turning seat heaters on or off
I don't want to fiddle with a touchscreen to do any of these things while the car is in motion.
ericmay · · focus · HN ↗
On the other hand, boy when I get a rental car there are so many buttons to mess around with it's like going backwards in time (for me) in terms of ease of use. Even something like having to turn on/off the car itself is now a chore. Why do I need to even turn the car on? It should just always work. Obviously part of that is "it's a new car" but a lot of that stuff seems very needlessly complex. I'm not talking about turning the heat on or off even though a lot of those implementations seem way more complicated than they need be (engineers gonna engineer and over-complicate things unless someone stops them) but other random things.
skydhash · · focus · HN ↗
- Window controls and lock/unlock
- Power mirrors adjustment (after someone else has driven the car)
- Light (it has auto mode)
- Steering wheel control for the head unit (vol +/-,...). It also has cruise but I don't use that
- Wiper and washers
- AC adjustment. It's a knob for temperature with 2 buttons inside (auto mode toggle and off)
- Fresh/recycled air switch
- AC/ventilation switch
- Ventilation speed. It's also a knob with 2 buttons, but I only remember the mode one (to switch between front/front and feet/heater/...)
- A defrost button
- ESP (ABS) disable button
- Window/door lock/ on the passenger door.
There's nothing else. For any of those buttons I would hate to use a touch screen.
ericmay · · focus · HN ↗
Some of the buttons you mentioned you have dedicated buttons for but at least for the Tesla some of those adjustments you do while parked and just swap the button mode. It allows for multi-use buttons which is pretty cool.
I’m not arguing against buttons or something to be clear, just sharing my experience. It seems like some other cars have a lot of unnecessary ones.
toast0 · · focus · HN ↗
I really like having dedicated buttons to disable driving assistance. It's handy when you're going through a drive through and you want to disable parking beeps that remind you not to run into the building. It's also handy if lane following gets annoying when road conditions demand ignoring the lane lines. I think NHTSA pushed to remove easy access to disable assistance though?
I don't mind using a screen for things I don't need to do while in motion. Like if I want to set if the car should beep when I lock the doors, or how many times the blinker should blink if I tap it and didn't mean it but it wants to be helpful... screens are wonderful for that. But if I need to focus on a screen to do things while I'm driving, I've lost focus on the surroundings.
devindotcom · · focus · HN ↗
ponector · · focus · HN ↗
asdff · · focus · HN ↗
ponector · · focus · HN ↗
LightBug1 · · focus · HN ↗
Supremely reliable.
Zero data capture / subscription nonsense
No bullshit.
You'll pry that thing from my cold dead hands before I jump on board the current crop of capable, but wack appliances.
ponector · · focus · HN ↗
Most of the people are upgrading such cars to get at least Bluetooth capabilities.
LightBug1 · · focus · HN ↗
It definitely isn't dialing out to the internet or being collecting/tracking data and snitching on me if I breathe the wrong way!
lenerdenator · · focus · HN ↗
... probably.
josefresco · · focus · HN ↗
<a href="https://www.toyota.com/prius/" rel="nofollow">https://www.toyota.com/prius/
vvillena · · focus · HN ↗
i4Cgarry · · focus · HN ↗
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AnnikaL · · focus · HN ↗
BobaFloutist · · focus · HN ↗
kulahan · · focus · HN ↗
erxam · · focus · HN ↗
Incidentally, this is also partly why the interiors feel so egregious and cheap in the pieces of shit produced by Germans these days.
kulahan · · focus · HN ↗
mort96 · · focus · HN ↗
drnick1 · · focus · HN ↗
tclancy · · focus · HN ↗
torginus · · focus · HN ↗
OptionOfT · · focus · HN ↗
Of course a dealership could offer low rates, but those are usually through the financing arm of the brand, not the dealership itself.
gwbas1c · · focus · HN ↗
BTW: The price premium for electric is offset by the lower cost of electricity, and the fact that electricity's cost is much less volatile than gas.
wahern · · focus · HN ↗
jen20 · · focus · HN ↗
bluGill · · focus · HN ↗
wahern · · focus · HN ↗
ak6te · · focus · HN ↗
fnordpiglet · · focus · HN ↗
Plus they last basically forever and require almost no maintenance. I like being able to never change oil, tune up, belts, whatever every few months. Every few years I get the cabin filter changed and that’s it. In 10 years the battery might be reduced by 20%, and I might replace the batteries around 15-20 years out, but I expect to literally drive it into the ground. (Mine is a Tesla with unlimited super charging for life, and I live next to a super charger)
I have family overseas and will likely buy them one of these EV Camrys. If they’re good, I might get one for my daughter. At $30k it’s fairly affordable.
wahern · · focus · HN ↗
fnordpiglet · · focus · HN ↗
itsmek · · focus · HN ↗
Unfortunately EVs still have a ways to go to catch up to my use case of buying 10-15 yr old vehicles with 100k mi for $5k and taking them to remote trails where a 550mi range is useful for safety. Such vehicles can be screened for design defects and are therefore more reliable than new vehicles - see the Toyota V6 recall for an example that even a sterling reputation isn't as strong a guarantee as just waiting and seeing. Maybe the EV range will catch up in my life but I wouldn't expect the cost of those high range vehicles to catch up for a long time, and by the time an EV is well-used and in my price range it will no longer be a long range EV what with the capacity degradation. See how this use case perfectly hits all the negatives of EVs? It's not that uncommon a use case in North America among us dirtbag wilderness enthusiasts. I don't doubt EVs are strictly better for many people though and am very interested to see how their long term reliability and cost fares as they trickle into the 10+ yr used market I participate in.
Btw my diy oil change takes 20 minutes and costs $20 all in and during that time I do an annual safety once-over which an EV would also require. So almost 0 net time involved and a negligible amount of money compared to things like tires which cost me 5x as much per year, a number that apparently is higher for EVs since they use tires more quickly afaik. Plus many EVs seem to be much harder (intentionally so as a business strategy it seems to me) to do DIY repairs on - wrenchers probably won't move over for a long time either.
fnordpiglet · · focus · HN ↗
Does that mean in 2026 that all ICE use cases are replaced? No, and with the aggressively anti science US administration it’s been set back by at least 8 years - the time it will take to rebuild momentum lost, research discarded, investment displaced. But there’s no reason beyond our lack of imagination to believe ICE will be on the road in 50 years in any use case.
itsmek · · focus · HN ↗
Saying ICE will be off the road in 50 years assumes technological advances that have not yet arrived despite massive research investment. What you say about easy recycling may be true but when it comes down to it we don't have cheap battery swaps yet despite many trying. Don't get me wrong I hope for all our sake that happens, I'm just objecting to your initial comment having the vibe that EVs are a panacea and that saving on oil changes is superior on net. There's a lot of nice ideas in this comment but it will take seeing for me to believe - a 10 year old car for $5k that isn't coming up on an expensive new battery that costs more than the car is worth.
NoLinkToMe · · focus · HN ↗
Typical EVs nowadays get about 6 km per kWh, the average driver in the US drives about 54 km. A US home typically has 15A plugs, or 20A in the kitchen/garage. That's 1.8 - 2.4 kW. Even at 80% safe continuous charge, you'll be averaging 1.5 kW at minimum. So that's just 6 hours of daily charging at minimum.
If you have a garage and plug in when you get home, your car typically sits there from 8PM to 8AM for 12 hours. That's already double the time necessary to charge 100% of your driving at home, at the minimum charging speeds equivalent to a microwave or washing machine. And you'll typically have much more time with the car plugged in on weekends and home-work days.
A 5k upgrade to the electrical box might be a good idea, but it's definitely not necessary for most normal EV users.
As for ROI, a Corolla might get 20 km per liter, in Connecticut that's 6c per km. An EV even at the 29c per kWh is just 4.8c per km which is 20% cheaper. If you have some solar panels you can cut that figure by another 65%.
Not to mention the lower maintenance costs for EVs and the rebates various local governments give.
pampas · · focus · HN ↗
JKCalhoun · · focus · HN ↗
How about depreciation though?
My sense is that after so many years (5?, 8?) an EV is going to be desperate for a new battery. That's, what, $5K (10K?) or more? It's like if an ICE car needed a new engine after 65K miles.
I assume the resell value for an 8-year old electric needing a new battery is close to zilch.
I want an EV, but they have to come way down in price.
lern_too_spel · · focus · HN ↗
andriy_koval · · focus · HN ↗
there is a chance that slapping one screen is now lower cost than few dozens mechanical knobs, connectors and sensors
phreack · · focus · HN ↗
I must be the minority surely, but given the choice between knobs and screen, knobs are the deciding factor. Even if it's more expensive, it's UX that you use permanently while operating heavy machinery!
wingworks · · focus · HN ↗
XorNot · · focus · HN ↗
Provided there's steering wheel and stalk controls, what do I really need to adjust on a center console while driving? I just want a big nav map or camera feed there.
ceejayoz · · focus · HN ↗
XorNot · · focus · HN ↗
The only notable thing I couldn't do was adjust the fan level if it was on automatic, but I could turn it off.
IMO if you might need it while driving it should be on the wheel or the stalks. Center console? That's for my passenger to mess with only, or for when I'm stopped.
mort96 · · focus · HN ↗
thesuitonym · · focus · HN ↗
aforwardslash · · focus · HN ↗
davnicwil · · focus · HN ↗
It makes the future feel fun, and feels like a return to adventurous aesthetics for the pure sake of it. At the very least, it's noticably different and interesting. I hope architecture follows suit.
ceejayoz · · focus · HN ↗
They just get completely watered down for production. As will happen here. That's why they're concepts.
davnicwil · · focus · HN ↗
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veunes · · focus · HN ↗
mort96 · · focus · HN ↗
And I agree. People like normal cars, people like normal door handles, people like A/C and heater knobs, people like PRNDL levers. None of that has changed just because the drivetrain uses a different kind of engine. Why is it so hard to make that, but electric? Why does "electric motor" somehow mean "all controls must be on the iPad"?
I hope it's just a phase that's about to reverse. Maybe they felt the need to go all futuristic design to cash in on how electric drivetrains used to feel futuristic. Maybe, as electric drivetrains just become "normal, boring" technology, we get options with normal designs too.
ooterness · · focus · HN ↗
thesuitonym · · focus · HN ↗
milesskorpen · · focus · HN ↗