Thread

What California is learning from solar panels built over irrigation canals

372 points · 744 comments · Jtsummers

nbf_1995 · 1790086541 · focus · HN ↗
It seems like it would be more effective to simply put all the solar panels in a field, and construct a cheap shade over the entire canal no? The supports in the picture are massive and don't look cheap. Also I would imagine the solar array uses more copper than a similar capacity array just built in a field. You can't daisy chain multiple miles of solar panels together, so you need an extra power line to run alongside the whole thing.
Put the solar panels in a field: The solar array uses less copper. The shade supports don't have to hold up solar panels: Shade supports cost less.
The best reasoning they give is that California has insane permitting requirements, and it takes 1/6 the time to build on developed land compared to undeveloped land.
1. schnevets · 1790111056 · focus · HN ↗
  Anecdotally speaking, I have heard of a massive California solar farm in an undeveloped area that has serious vandalism problems. Junkies will find ways through the fencing at night, strip copper and other materials from panels, and cause thousands in damages and lost energy just to extract enough scrap for a fix.
  Nothing short of a face-to-face security response will deter these criminals, so there it is a challenging cost-benefit balance. At least panels in parking lots and other developed spaces have the benefit of witnesses. I'm sure a 20 foot climb up a steel beam over running water is a decent deterrent as well.
  1. swiftcoder · 1790149813 · focus · HN ↗
    > Junkies will find ways through the fencing at night, strip copper and other materials from panels, and cause thousands in damages and lost energy just to extract enough scrap for a fix
    I live in a European country, where the phone company hasn't bothered to come remove the old unused copper phone lines in the last 5 years. Thousands of dollars worth of cables running past my house alone, and no one has bothered to go strip it in the night and sell it
    This feels like one of those USA problems that would be better addressed by funding decent social services (free healthcare, cheap housing, addiction treatment programs, etc).
    pbhjpbhj · 1790150467 · focus · HN ↗
    In rural UK where phone lines are sometimes laid in a shallow ditch by the road, my relative's village loses their landline phone wiring every once in a while because someone stripped the whole roads-length of wire. They tie off to a trailer hitch and drive away.
    Been happening occasionally for at least a decade.
    someonebaggy · 1790170554 · focus · HN ↗
    Once in a while though, not constantly.
    retired · 1790150733 · focus · HN ↗
    The Netherlands has one of the best healthcare systems in the EU, 30% social housing, treatment programs, one of the best drug policies...
    And still has a yearly 6 to 8 million euro in damages from copper thieves just on the rail system alone. And that doesn't include economic damages from people being late for work.
    quijoteuniv · 1790156439 · focus · HN ↗
    I can only imagine what it would be without that! I was told once that in said country (and probably other lands) police tolerates some kind of small petty crimes so that things do not escalate to bigger things
    [deleted] · 1790159707 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    peterfirefly · 1790176035 · focus · HN ↗
    Probably not much worse.
    Cthulhu_ · 1790164275 · focus · HN ↗
    I can't confidently refute your claims, but all of those socialist policies have backslid over time; social housing (i.e. affordable housing with eligiblity for government support to pay rent) has a 10+ year wait list in a lot of places, because there's not enough. Non-social housing is unaffordable and unobtainable for a lot of people with housing prices having gone up 2x or more since 2010.
    And the social systems don't reach everyone, in part thanks to 20+ years of conservative governments. People can't find jobs, if they're entitled to one (i.e. are nationalized) they can apply for government subsidies, but those come with strict conditions including a requirement to apply to jobs on the regular (and provide evidence, and you get cut on your subsidies if you don't).
    On paper it still looks good ish, but in practice it sucks if you're in the system. Health care is becoming unaffordable (creeping to 200/month just for the insurance, plus 375 or so copay which the new government wants to increase even further, which means poor people will avoid seeking health support because who can afford up to 375 on top of 200 / month, and that's not even the essentials?)
    retired · 1790173839 · focus · HN ↗
    Healthcare is €145 a month with a €385 deductible and can be lower if you raise your deductible voluntarily. If you are low income you get €129 a month in allowance towards your health insurance. Various municipalities have their own allowances for low income people to help them pay for healthcare. The deductible is for all healthcare in the entire year, not per procedure. It has not gone up with inflation for years hence why government is talking about raising it.
    Healthcare is already income based in The Netherlands. I used to pay €5000 a year as a high earner. My neighbor paid €0 per year as he didn't have a job. If poor people avoid seeking healthcare over cost they are doing things very wrong as they can seek financial help and get it.
    Also I think it is good that you need to actively look for a new job in order to get unemployment benefits. It's a safety net not a hammock.
    inglor_cz · 1790154189 · focus · HN ↗
    Swiftcoder, I don't think we Europeans have a recipe for treating fentanyl addiction.
    We are just lucky that this horrible drug isn't as accessible here as it is in Cali.
    BTW recently I spent eight hours in a stopped train because a family of career criminals decided to steal cables from the railway. They didn't even escape, they were immediately caught with their loot, but the damage was done and thousands were stranded on the main rail corridor in Moravia deep into the night. I was home at 3 AM instead of 7 PM.
    There is no treatment for this sort of stupidity where people do damage to themselves and to everyone else because of a really bad judgment.
    My friend was in prison for causing a serious road accident. Some six months. When he came back, he commented that most of the repeat offenders are just stupid as f*ck, unable to put two and two together, getting repeatedly caught over crimes done impulsively and without due preparation.
    retired · 1790155218 · focus · HN ↗
    I really hope we don't get a California situation. If you look at the addicts at the Frankfurt train station, that is starting to look like Skid Row.
    fch42 · 1790179836 · focus · HN ↗
    "Wir Kinder vom Bahnhof Zoo" probably rings a bell for you. With respect to drug addiction, in Europe/Germany at least, I'm more inclined to say "little has changed in 40 years" than to say "things are worse now".
    It's sobering to think we've not made much inroads into giving addicts a better perspective (or getting "preemptive" messaging across) in all that time.
    Cthulhu_ · 1790163801 · focus · HN ↗
    > There is no treatment for this sort of stupidity where people do damage to themselves and to everyone else because of a really bad judgment.
    I'd argue there is; why do people steal stuff? Because it's easier and more profitable than jobs they can do. What's the solution? Meaningful employment for everyone. People generally don't steal if they earn a living wage that doesn't kill them. (some still would because they get a kick out of it though but there's therapy available for them if they want to change)
    swiftcoder · 1790165450 · focus · HN ↗
    We also have ample evidence that you can solve this sort of problem via UBI. As politically inconvenient as that result has proven to be...
    FeloniousHam · 1790169972 · focus · HN ↗
    ...would that this (micro) evidence actually show that, and had any hope of practical scale without unintendeded consequences...
    fakedang · 1790177693 · focus · HN ↗
    UBI is not the panacea imo. We need UBS, and not the bank - universal basic services. Whether that's healthcare, education, unemployment, free transportation, food stamps for the needy, housing loans, more government jobs, etc.
    UBI was an experiment carried out during COVID and all it did was elevate prices and push a lot of people into Robinhood, while elevating the debt crisis.
    swiftcoder · 1790180716 · focus · HN ↗
    > UBI was an experiment carried out during COVID and all it did...
    I would not put the one-time covid cheques on par with the various rigorous UBI and/or free housing experiments that have been run over the last 30 years
    fakedang · 1790182606 · focus · HN ↗
    But the COVID cheques were the only ones done at a scale comparable enough to what a UBI programme would look like in the US, one that could inform government on what usage would look like.
    Free housing is just another form of UBS that I was talking about.
    fch42 · 1790179520 · focus · HN ↗
    I do wonder; my naive expectation is that while it will solve "petty criminality out of need" it would do little to "pretty criminality out of boredom / for-fun".
    And BI would be attacked for the latter - some ingrateful on-basic-income person committing vandalism for no financial benefit. It's the "workhouse"/"treadmill" argument - supposedly boredom breeds crime and people must be made to work, even pointless or below-poverty tasks, else the streets get taken over by criminals or worse.
    Like tourists taking over the country.
    Arguments acknowledging (and steering / manipulating) feelings weigh stronger here than economic facts, alas.
    vladvasiliu · 1790183449 · focus · HN ↗
    Right. Where I live, there is plenty of vandalism. Breaking public benches, defecating in public toilets outside the bowl, rampant littering when there are trash cans all over the place, etc.
    There's no financial gain in that. Doing this won't get you healthcare (we've got socialized healthcare anyway, and it's pretty much free for "the poor"), won't help you eat. It's just stupid, antisocial people. How would giving them money help any of that?
    inglor_cz · 1790183152 · focus · HN ↗
    Because it's easier and more profitable than jobs they can do. What's the solution? Meaningful employment for everyone. People generally don't steal if they earn a living wage that doesn't kill them.
    You seem to believe that everyone wants to work. I don't think this is a given.
    You also seem to believe that people who steal are just trying to make ends meet. Quite a lot of thiefs are addicts who steal to feed their drug habit. Given the cost of drugs in the street, unless they have really good jobs (and can keep them even when taking drugs), they will resort to stealing just to be able to buy their fix.
    keiferski · 1790154747 · focus · HN ↗
    America is an entirely different cultural universe and simple things like this seem logical but just wouldn’t really solve the entire problem, IMO, as an American that’s lived in Europe for a decade+.
    Another great example are the “open air” transit systems in Germany, Poland, etc. where you can freely enter trams and buses, with inspectors patrolling infrequently to check if you bought a ticket. That kind of system would absolutely never work in America, no one would pay, and the ticket inspectors would be hated as some kind of secret police.
    swiftcoder · 1790155235 · focus · HN ↗
    > Another great example are the “open air” transit systems in Germany, Poland, etc. where you can freely enter trams and buses, with inspectors patrolling infrequently to check if you bought a ticket. That kind of system would absolutely never work in America
    This is exactly how Seattle's light rail worked for years. You could just walk on and off, and I saw an inspector maybe 1-in-10 trips at best
    keiferski · 1790155516 · focus · HN ↗
    Interesting, I’ve never been to Seattle. But it looks like they are adding fare gates, so apparently it isn’t working.
    swiftcoder · 1790155763 · focus · HN ↗
    Yeah, the system was tiny originally - just a single line from the airport to downtown. I left right before the big system expansion started, I wouldn't be surprised if scale has exposed more issues with the system
    Gh0stRAT · 1790167097 · focus · HN ↗
    From what I've heard, fare compliance used to be relatively high but dropped massively (alongside ridership) during COVID and hasn't really recovered.
    buildsjets · 1790185126 · focus · HN ↗
    Of course ridership dropped during COVID, but it very quickly recovered and is now well over double the ridership before the COVID dip. Also note that prior to COVID, the system was still under construction and not even the 1 Line was fully operational yet. It could take you from UW to the Airport, and that's about it, the complete 1 Line route to Northgate did not open until October 2021, Lynnwood to downtown extension did not open until 2024, and Line 2 from Redmond to downtown did not open until earlier this year.
    So, it's hard to make a direct comparison of fare compliance before and after the "COVID times" however you define the time period, as the are very different transit systems that now serve a different geographical area and population. But fare compliance has recovered from 56% during the peak of COVID to 63% in 2025, and 2026 numbers are not out yet.
    <a href="https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/seattles-daily-light-rail-ridership-jumps-to-no-1-in-u-s/" rel="nofollow">https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/sea...
    zippothrowaway · 1790155998 · focus · HN ↗
    This is still the way it works in San Francisco on the buses and light rail.
    Polizeiposaune · 1790181504 · focus · HN ↗
    Improved fare gates for BART have increased revenue and dramatically reduced maintenance costs:
    "Comparing the six month period before the 'next generation' fare gates debuted, to the six months that followed, Embarcadero station saw a significant reduction in the need for maintenance work — from 112 hours to two hours. "
    ...
    "When you see how dramatically these maintenance requests fell, the numbers tell us that these fare gates are preventing unwanted behavior that impacts the station environment," BART spokesperson Alicia Trost told the Chronicle. "Those people are no longer entering BART."
    <a href="https://www.transittalent.com/articles/index.cfm?story=BARTs-long-fight-against-fare-evasion-finally-paying-off_2-10-2026" rel="nofollow">https://www.transittalent.com/articles/index.cfm?story=BARTs...
    WalterBright · 1790187533 · focus · HN ↗
    I read in the paper that 90% of the riders on the Seattle busses don't pay the fare. Grocery store looting is rampant.
    Seattle has become a low trust society.
    itsmek · 1790195935 · focus · HN ↗
    Source for the 90% number and rampant looting? This sounds like low-quality "information"/propaganda to me.
    WalterBright · 1790207379 · focus · HN ↗
    <a href="https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/only-suckers-pay-seattles-heated-transit-fares-debate/" rel="nofollow">https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/only-suck...
    Of course, there's a case that the Seattle Times itself is a source of low-quality information.
    itsmek · 1790272507 · focus · HN ↗
    Transit source seems fine I think you're just misinterpreting it. That first source says about a third board without paying, not 90%. The 90% number you're quoting is I assume from the <10% farebox recovery which is a different metric from fare evasion. North America generally has low farebox recovery (car centric development therefore transit needs bigger subsidies to compete) and the pandemic made it worse. Don't get me wrong the numbers aren't good but I don't think it's evidence that Seattle is an especially low trust society like you're implying, I think it just indicates a lack of enforcement - a third is in line with fare evasion problems in other places in the world when they lack enforcement. People in Seattle behave no different from people in other places - they estimate risk vs reward in a free ride and some fraction of people lack a moral compass or are so poor that the benefit is significant. There's a reasonable line of thinking that 0 fares are best for society as a whole and I've heard this promoted among PNW urbanites so it wouldn't surprise me if enforcement is intentionally low to make it a sort of sliding scale farebox recovery, in which case a high fare evasion is not evidence of low trust, just of a highly progressive political culture, and something opposing propaganda will not hesitate to harp on.
    Theft rings are pretty common in bad neighborhoods throughout north american cities. The existence of a policy to help grocery stores in high crime areas doesn't support your thesis since it's going to be used on a vast minority of stores, not indicative of "rampant" (most stores in Seattle seem fine in my experience), and not indicative of a broader trend in trust.
    And here is some data counter to your thesis <a href="https://www.pewresearch.org/2025/05/08/americans-trust-in-one-another/#h-geography" rel="nofollow">https://www.pewresearch.org/2025/05/08/americans-trust-in-on... It seems to me that Seattle is an especially high trust society by US standards (largely due to high income I suspect), and the things you're pointing at are evidence of the opposite of your thesis - more likely to be symptoms of high trust than low trust.
    WalterBright · 1790274831 · focus · HN ↗
    From first cite: "Last fall it was down to 14%."
    > The existence of a policy to help grocery stores in high crime areas doesn't support your thesis since it's going to be used on a vast minority of stores, not indicative of "rampant" (most stores in Seattle seem fine in my experience), and not indicative of a broader trend in trust.
    Grocery stores in Seattle are shutting down, and looting is a major contributing factor to it.
    itsmek · 1790279222 · focus · HN ↗
    That 14% describes farebox recovery which is mostly low due to subsidized transit, not evasion. They say that number is "funded x% by riders paying fares" which is not the same as "y% of riders pay fares" that you interpret it as. The former is called farebox recovery while the latter describes fare evasion. 14% farebox recovery is not out of the ordinary in north america where we need to subsidize transit more than other countries due to car oriented development. If you subtract 33% fare evasion (from the article) from that 14% recovery you will still be at about 21% farebox recovery and that's on the low side but not out of the ordinary for western North America (it's better than most California systems for example where we usually get 10%). 20% farebox recovery is just fundamental to our transit and urban planning, nothing to do with fare evasion or trust level. Whereas 90% fare evasion would be highly highly unusual, which is why I wanted a source and now I can see where your misunderstanding comes from. In your defense I do think that article is intentionally eliding the two by not explicitly defining terms - maybe deceiving the reader makes the article hit harder. Anyway very few places have fare evasion over 50% since the majority of people will pay based on morals (and their income level) even against zero enforcement whatsoever.
    I'm open to the claim that looting -> grocery store shutdowns, especially in bad areas, I just dispute it being "rampant" based on my lived experience, and I dispute that there's a causal link instead of correlation with a low income/low traffic/low staffing death spiral. I did not feel your source adequately supported this claim. I am not convinced Seattle has it worse than other metros (similar things happen where I live in California in bad areas too, and it's been shown to be stores that were underperforming and due to be closed regardless of looting), and I am not convinced this supports your thesis that Seattle has become a low trust society against my counter evidence from Pew.
    WalterBright · 1790208524 · focus · HN ↗
    BTW, in the Bellevue area across the lake from Seattle, walk into a bank. There will be counters which the tellers are behind.
    Now go to a bank in downtown Seattle. The tellers are behind thick bulletproof glass.
    int0x29 · 1790156357 · focus · HN ↗
    This is how VTA light rail works in San José.
    kasey_junk · 1790159651 · focus · HN ↗
    My daily commute is by open air rail in Chicago.
    Me and my fellow commuters know snd like our conductors.
    retired · 1790160032 · focus · HN ↗
    The Netherlands is phasing out open air transit because it doesn’t work. Aggression towards public transit service workers is at an all time high. Most stations have moved from no barriers to barriers over 2 meters tall. Refugees have their own bus lines.
    Society is going backwards in rapid pace I’m afraid.
    nathanaldensr · 1790174175 · focus · HN ↗
    From high-trust homogeneous populations to low-trust heterogeneous populations.
    crote · 1790178592 · focus · HN ↗
    That is factually incorrect. The Netherlands is not phasing out open air transit (barriers are only a thing at the high-volume stations) and the barriers are rarely 2 meters tall (at most stations they are waist-high).
    The "refugee bus line" is a single ferrying route between a rather awkwardly-placed arrival center and its nearest train station. The main issues were caused by refugees being unable or unwilling to pay the bus fare, and considering all of those refugees are living off an allowance anyways, having the arrival center itself pay for the buses and making them "free" really is a no-brainer solution.
    retired · 1790192874 · focus · HN ↗
    The Netherlands used to have open air-transit. But in the last years, barriers have been installed at nearly every train station. There are 1700 barriers according to Thales. 90% of travelers encounter at least one barrier during their trip. A lot of them are two meters tall. Some are only waist high.
    Segregating refugees onto their own bus because they are aggressive is what South Africa did during apartheid. Even the United States isn't doing that anymore. It is a disgrace. Just give the refugees a card that you load with €50 every month. You can automate that and they can pay for the bus with that card.
    And no, it is not a single route. I guess you are referring to the Ter Apel to Emmen line. That is indeed one of the segregated bus lines. There is also the line from the DISA building to the night shelter. There are taxi services for underage refugees. There is arranged bus transport between locations.
    <a href="https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/actueel/nieuws/2026/07/13/extra-maatregelen-voor-veiligheid-en-opvang-in-ter-apel" rel="nofollow">https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/actueel/nieuws/2026/07/13/extra...
    <a href="https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/site/binaries/site-content/collections/documents/2023/07/31/antwoorden-kamervragen-over-het-bericht-bijna-elke-dag-verdwijnt-er-een-kind-uit-de-asielopvang/antwoorden-kamervragen-over-het-bericht-bijna-elke-dag-verdwijnt-er-een-kind-uit-de-asielopvang.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/site/binaries/site-content/coll...
    saagarjha · 1790164790 · focus · HN ↗
    Caltrain does exactly this.
    keiferski · 1790165126 · focus · HN ↗
    There seem to be a fair number of commuter train lines that do this, but I don’t really consider a train to be the same as an urban tram/bus system. The latter has orders of magnitude more daily passengers, and it’s a far wider breadth of people compared to the typically better-off suburban commuter lines.
    And as someone that’s ridden the bus in LA many times: the culture of acceptable behavior there is infinitely lower than the typical Central European bus.
    To be fair I did have NYC in mind when writing the comment though, and I should have looked into west coast systems more.
    falsemyrmidon · 1790168752 · focus · HN ↗
    Seattle's light rail system uses that exact model.
    thelaxiankey · 1790170003 · focus · HN ↗
    It's also how the San Diego trolley works (it's called a trolley, but it is almost a heavy rail with respect to how separated the tracks are everywhere except downtown). One of the cleanest, most effective rail systems I've seen in the US (though there are a lot of security in the wagons)
    InitialLastName · 1790170992 · focus · HN ↗
    That's how both the SBS buses in NYC used to work (before tap to pay), and how the NJ Transit light rail still works.
    rootusrootus · 1790172857 · focus · HN ↗
    Portland’s light rail works this way.
    I find it interesting to see how often criticisms are leveled at the US confidently based on ignorance.
    keiferski · 1790173570 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes, I should have looked into West Coast systems, as they seem to have this more. I had the East Coast/NYC more in mind.
    However, I wouldn't be so confident about Portland's working well:
    > The transit agency has identified a significant increase in fare evasion, prompting the introduction of new technology to control access at train stations...The report said TriMet has the third highest amount of fare evaders in the country, trailing only San Diego and Los Angeles.
    <a href="https://katu.com/news/local/trimet-considers-adding-gates-to-stop-fare-evasion-as-it-faces-74-million-deficit-portland-oregon-transit-system-transportation-train-tram-bus-fare-evasion-max-trains" rel="nofollow">https://katu.com/news/local/trimet-considers-adding-gates-to...
    rootusrootus · 1790187818 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    GolfPopper · 1790186913 · focus · HN ↗
    That's exactly how light rail in Denver works (or, at least how it did a decade ago when I lived there). To a rough approximation everyone paid, the light rail worked fine everywhere it ran, and I never saw an inspector treated with anything less than politeness. I rode it in to work regularly for years, and irregularly for another few years, over about a decade. The biggest problem was that sometimes it was very crowded.
    rithdmc · 1790157924 · focus · HN ↗
    Copper theft is definitely an issue in Ireland.
    alt227 · 1790159330 · focus · HN ↗
    > This feels like one of those USA problems
    In the uk rail industry we have people stealing copper all the time. They cut a live cable, attach it to the back of a truck and drive off. Sometimes this can yield them kms of cable.
    We also had issues where people would jump over fences into depots, use scaffold boards to build a ramp over the 2.5m fence, and then use forklifts to roll big reels of cable up the ramps and over the fence on to the back of a waiting truck the other side.
    Copper cable theft is 100% a massive issue in the UK.
    GJim · 1790160652 · focus · HN ↗
    > In the uk rail industry we have people stealing copper all the time.
    The elephant in the room is naming the group almost exclusively responsible for this crime.
    Cthulhu_ · 1790163657 · focus · HN ↗
    Does it matter? Because if it does, it's advocating for (racial?) profiling and/or singling one demographic out, which is both illegal (maybe not in the UK since it doesn't have a constitution?), amoral, and contrary to one of the core principles of current-day law, i.e. "innocent until proven guilty".
    But do tell, what do you think is the group and what do you think should happen?
    regularfry · 1790165590 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm sure this is exactly the sort of group they meant: <a href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c39n19dw1ggo" rel="nofollow">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c39n19dw1ggo
    Or maybe him: <a href="https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/cable-thief-jailed-after-incident-at-wakefield-caused-major-disruption" rel="nofollow">https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/cable-thief-ja...
    "Almost exclusively" would seem to point in a very home-grown direction.
    zardo · 1790190857 · focus · HN ↗
    Thieves. People are afraid to say it but thieves are responsible for almost all theft.
    alt227 · 1790168296 · focus · HN ↗
    If a certain group of people are the ones constantly causing the majority of the same specific societal issues, why shouldnt they be called out?
    someonebaggy · 1790170586 · focus · HN ↗
    You can call out a person. What does it mean to call out a group? That's guilt by association.
    alt227 · 1790174499 · focus · HN ↗
    OK cool, I look forward to everybody stopping targeting rich white men as the main problem in the world.
    swiftcoder · 1790174783 · focus · HN ↗
    There is a difference between punching up and punching down
    alt227 · 1790176162 · focus · HN ↗
    Oh there are clauses and exceptions to prejudice are there?
    So who gets to decide the definition of 'punching up'? When is it ok for me to be prejudice towards a group of people? Im looking forward to learning where the line is so I can feel safe in my bigotry /s.
    k12sosse · 1790184167 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes, just one, and it's defined in this excerpt:
    Don't be a dick.
    If you're being a dick, you're at fault, if you're not being a dick, you get a pass.
    alt227 · 1790185359 · focus · HN ↗
    excerpt from what?
    Its a shame the meaning of language is subjective, or we could all happily live under this banner forevermore.
    Forgeties79 · 1790196527 · focus · HN ↗
    >When is it ok for me to be prejudice towards a group of people?
    When a group acts as a coordinated group. A political party for instance. This is not rocket science. You must link the individual(s) directly to the act, or you’re just stereotyping and making assumptions.
    You are asking a lot of baiting questions. We know this isn't an attempt at dialogue, so just state your mind and be done with it instead of continuing of this silly bread crumb game man.
    someonebaggy · 1790180719 · focus · HN ↗
    Targeting rich people for being rich is targeting an attribute, not a group. The equivalent would be targeting black people for having dark skin, as opposed to targeting black people for doing crime.
    alt227 · 1790183358 · focus · HN ↗
    Right, but targeting rich white men is targeting a very specific group. The equivalent would be poor black women, but I'm not really sure why thats important here.
    someonebaggy · 1790299600 · focus · HN ↗
    Most rich people in the USA happen to be white men.
    5upplied_demand · 1790181744 · focus · HN ↗
    Is "everybody" doing that, seems like a stretch? In fact, the current US President explicitly blames immigrants for many of our problems.
    The Economy - <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/09/us/politics/trump-somalis-immigrants.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/09/us/politics/trump-somalis...
    Affordability - <a href="https://www.pbs.org/video/trump-s-message-1765403127/" rel="nofollow">https://www.pbs.org/video/trump-s-message-1765403127/
    Crime - <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/nov/29/trumps-hate-filled-rant-ignores-facts-on-immigrant-and-economic-benefits" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/nov/29/trumps-hate-...
    Benefits - <a href="https://www.themarshallproject.org/2024/10/24/fact-check-trump-statements-immigrants-takeaways" rel="nofollow">https://www.themarshallproject.org/2024/10/24/fact-check-tru...
    alt227 · 1790183206 · focus · HN ↗
    Its interesting that to argue against my point you use an example of somebody from the very specific group I mentioned.
    Of course Donald Trump isnt going to blame rich white men for anything, he is one!
    5upplied_demand · 1790183478 · focus · HN ↗
    If that's the case, you shouldn't use words like everybody, because you don't mean everybody
    The rest of your response can be answered in your own words: Oh there are clauses and exceptions to prejudice are there?
    EDITED
    alt227 · 1790184700 · focus · HN ↗
    Lol you literally have no idea what you are arguing against here.
    I didnt think any sensible person would take the word everybody to mean literally every single person in existence. If I could go back and edit the post now I would happily change the word 'everybody' into lots of people' to satisfy the semantic pedants.
    I dont think I have the energy to correct a random on the internet about what my opinion is, other than to say I very much dont blame rich white men for anything and no I dont think there are exceptions to prejudice. But thats it, you can have the last word I'm out.
    5upplied_demand · 1790193633 · focus · HN ↗
    No, it was perfectly clear that you simply meant "everybody" that disagrees with you. That said, we know a large percentage of the population agrees with the President's immigrant framing because he was elected President based largely on that premise.
    So, lots and lots of people are blaming immigrants for all our problems. I'm not sure rich white men need you to defend them to a random on the internet, they are doing just fine.
    imtringued · 1790260140 · focus · HN ↗
    No I'm pretty sure by "everybody" he meant a loose quantity as in a large number of people. Of course such a quantity could be constrained e.g. to what can be seen on the news or maybe the local neighbourhood.
    When someone says "everyone and their dog", they don't mean that the dogs are also participating.
    Basically you failed to charitably interpret the person you are responding to and are now insisting on a reinterpretation that makes you look silly.
    5upplied_demand · 1790787083 · focus · HN ↗
    I think most people would charitably interpret that "everybody" means at least a majority of people. That is what I questioned.
    I don't really view internet comments as "strategic" like you. I was simply clarifying that this person's world (social media, news, friends, etc.) may give them the impression that "everybody" is blaming this group, but in reality that isn't true.
    imtringued · 1790260365 · focus · HN ↗
    You don't need to correct anything, to me your point came across very clearly.
    Lio · 1790176687 · focus · HN ↗
    Depends on the crime.
    If you step in human shit right next to a community with a very strict rule that you're not allow to use the toilet inside your dwelling then it's probably very likely to be left by them.
    I'm not joking about that rule either, there are penalties for breaking it.
    NuclearPM · 1790377357 · focus · HN ↗
    Some cultures are better than others
    Supermancho · 1790182702 · focus · HN ↗
    Arbitrary classification does not make a functional group. There is a distinct difference between a coordinated group and an abstract group that is the result of external parties adding people into named buckets for their own purposes.
    alt227 · 1790187892 · focus · HN ↗
    Care to give some examples of what you consider to be coordinated groups, functional groups, and abstract groups?
    I am assuming that your point is that prejudice is ok to some type of group but not other, but I am inferring that from your answer. Feel free to correct me.
    Supermancho · 1790191687 · focus · HN ↗
    > I am assuming that your point is that prejudice is ok to some type of group but not other
    That's a bad inference. I was explaining the distinction that seems to be confusing the issue.
    > Care to give some examples of what you consider to be coordinated groups, functional groups, and abstract groups?
    You understand plain English well enough.
    FridayoLeary · 1790196863 · focus · HN ↗
    That's a word salad.
    Supermancho · 1790208905 · focus · HN ↗
    The first sentence is plain English. The second is clarification through example.
    Someone who doesn't know what arbitrary or abstract means, or has trouble with context, I'm sure it can seem confusing.
    mmooss · 1790183832 · focus · HN ↗
    It's an interesting coincidence that in these situations, the same people always blame %vulnerable group%, often going as far as making up evidence. Why do that? I suspect the reason is the vulnerability.
    [deleted] · 1790184937 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    alt227 · 1790185309 · focus · HN ↗
    Why would you throw an accusation out like this without providing any evidence of your own?
    Who are these people making up evidence about %vulnerable groups% and what are they saying?
    FridayoLeary · 1790196825 · focus · HN ↗
    Obviously, because then you can focus your attention to that specific group.IE, if cable theft is exclusively carried out by white people from kensington then whenever something is stolen, you can just go there and catch the criminals.
    Criminals should be locked up in jail.
    xgulfie · 1790167159 · focus · HN ↗
    men?
    alt227 · 1790168650 · focus · HN ↗
    It would appear not:
    <a href="https://www.facebook.com/GladstoneObserver/posts/a-woman-put-her-safety-at-risk-by-breaking-into-a-rail-corridor-at-night-and-ste/1607653134696978/" rel="nofollow">https://www.facebook.com/GladstoneObserver/posts/a-woman-put...
    <a href="https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/two-arrested-over-copper-cable-theft-which-caused-massive-travel-chaos-6441478.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/two-arrested-over-copper...
    UnreachableCode · 1790172701 · focus · HN ↗
    The Regan Administration??
    js2 · 1790173167 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    coredog64 · 1790185792 · focus · HN ↗
    > The elephant in the room
    People may or may not find it interesting to research the history of this phrase and what it replaced.
    bigwheels · 1790189301 · focus · HN ↗
    Is "800 pound gorilla" the competing phrase? May I ask what you found noteworthy about this?
    adwn · 1790194727 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    SenHeng · 1790161443 · focus · HN ↗
    Copper and various other kind of metal theft has been on a rise lately in Japan too.
    <a href="https://www.asahi.com/sp/ajw/articles/14933216" rel="nofollow">https://www.asahi.com/sp/ajw/articles/14933216
    SecretDreams · 1790162218 · focus · HN ↗
    > This feels like one of those USA problems that would be better addressed by funding decent social services (free healthcare, cheap housing, addiction treatment programs, etc).
    What are you going to suggest next? Hot lunches for kids and a justice system focused on reform?
    trollbridge · 1790162831 · focus · HN ↗
    California already has those social services; that doesn’t stop antisocial people from doing antisocial things. A tiny fraction of people can cause a lot of damage.
    There is a part of California that still has ancient telegraph lines complete with weathered copper with the blueish colour. Nobody has come by to scrap it yet. So it’s really a matter of proximity to wherever antisocial people choose to live.
    TeMPOraL · 1790164203 · focus · HN ↗
    Copper price more than proximity. People don't strip wires for shits and giggles, they do it to sell the metal.
    Bet you if copper price suddenly went up 10x, those ancient telegraph lines would disappear very quickly, one way or another (turns out, "criminals" and "junkies" and "entrepreneurs" are driven by similar incentives, they just sit at different points of the cost/risk tradeoff spectrum).
    stavros · 1790165576 · focus · HN ↗
    > wherever antisocial people choose to live.
    Are we going to discover that, by some striking surprise, antisocial people choose to live in places with weaker social support?
    FeloniousHam · 1790169626 · focus · HN ↗
    Seattle/Portland/San Francisco. I think you're on to something.
    dv_dt · 1790166266 · focus · HN ↗
    California has those services but they tend to be only funded to a fraction of the need. And the gap between the need vs help is a deep gulf due to how inequality lands on all other public and private areas of society
    FuriouslyAdrift · 1790171160 · focus · HN ↗
    California's 2025-26 budget for health and human services was $307 billion for 39 million people. Compared with France at $370 billion for 67 million people.
    swiftcoder · 1790172085 · focus · HN ↗
    There is a certain gulf in the efficiency of spending for sure
    lokar · 1790173083 · focus · HN ↗
    The high cost of housing makes the needs much higher
    swiftcoder · 1790174021 · focus · HN ↗
    > The high cost of housing makes the needs much higher
    I mean, this is pretty solvable if the political will was there to upzone large areas of low-density housing around the Bay and LA...
    FuriouslyAdrift · 1790175284 · focus · HN ↗
    There's plenty of affordable housing outside of areas like the Bay area (or Hong Kong, Vienna, London, etc.). Why in the world would someone want to destroy what makes those areas desirable in the name of "affordability"?
    The fact that these areas are highly competitive is what keeps them desireable.
    When I was in Cali, I lived in Tracy, Stockton, and outside Sacremento because while I was a tech worker, I wasn't a top 1% tech worker. Not everyone needs to live in the Bay.
    crote · 1790177394 · focus · HN ↗
    > Why in the world would someone want to destroy what makes those areas desirable
    If low density is the crucial factor in determining desirability, why aren't Manhattan apartments basically free and tiny houses in rural Montana being sold for tens of millions?
    lokar · 1790177860 · focus · HN ↗
    There is a vocal slice of Americans who are convinced that any dense urban area is some crime-ridden hellscape.
    Forgeties79 · 1790212680 · focus · HN ↗
    As they live under the thumb of the local good old boy sheriff who is basically a mob boss in their sundown town.
    swiftcoder · 1790177529 · focus · HN ↗
    > When I was in Cali, I lived in Tracy, Stockton, and outside Sacremento because while I was a tech worker, I wasn't a top 1% tech worker. Not everyone needs to live in the Bay.
    Did you commute into the Bay?
    Because by my count, Stockton to SF or Stockton to Menlo Park is a 3-hours/day commute. 3 hours/day on the highway may be surviving, but it sure as shit isn't living (just in case anyone from outside the US thinks this is an extreme outlier, I worked with a number of QA folks in the Bay who had commutes this bad, or worse)
    FuriouslyAdrift · 1790184350 · focus · HN ↗
    Stockton to Cupertino... Tracy to SF and Cupertino. I also commuted to Sacremento for a while.
    I made about half as much as my co-workers (I was contract) but I took home more due to the difference in living expenses. Also, I had a house instead of an apartment.
    swiftcoder · 1790184817 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm glad it worked out for you, but I wouldn't wish that commute on my worst enemy (this is one of the primary reasons I never moved to work in Cali)
    FuriouslyAdrift · 1790185733 · focus · HN ↗
    Well when I was much younger (19) and lived in North Hollywood but worked in downtown LA, I walked as I didn't own a car. I was considered a freak because everyone in LA at that time drove everywhere... even to the end of the block.
    Now, decades later, I have no desire to be anywhere "trendy" or "hip". I want affordability, stability, space, and quiet.
    lokar · 1790176956 · focus · HN ↗
    We are working on it. There has been a lot of progress in legislation, and some construction. But it’s a change.
    rickydroll · 1790172543 · focus · HN ↗
    I wonder how much of that per-person cost difference is due to government-run versus private-industry-run.
    dv_dt · 1790177952 · focus · HN ↗
    Providing healthcare alone under the US system as the state of CA vs the French system could account for a large amount of the difference.
    vjvjvjvjghv · 1790172396 · focus · HN ↗
    "California has those services but they tend to be only funded to a fraction of the need."
    Sometimes it feels like they are well funded but the people running the programs live in a (very expensive) dream world that has no connection to the actual need.
    someonebaggy · 1790170517 · focus · HN ↗
    California claims to have those social services. Does it actually, or are they impossible to actually get?
    mikeryan · 1790180097 · focus · HN ↗
    We do, but they tend to be clustered around urban areas. There’s vast swaths of CA that lean much more conservative and more economically challenged that are under served.
    I think a lot of people don’t realize you can go 2-2.5 hours out side of SF and be in CA MAGA country.
    autoexec · 1790204867 · focus · HN ↗
    California is teeming with homelessness, whatever they call "cheap housing" isn't helping. They have the highest poverty rate in the nation (or close to it <a href="https://www.ktvu.com/news/california-has-highest-poverty-rate-nation-tied-louisiana" rel="nofollow">https://www.ktvu.com/news/california-has-highest-poverty-rat...). Nearly half of California's population can't afford even the basic costs of living and millions struggle to afford food (<a href="https://www.kcra.com/article/new-hunger-research-shows-millions-of-californians-struggling-to-afford-food/71351065" rel="nofollow">https://www.kcra.com/article/new-hunger-research-shows-milli...) so while the state has done well in some areas (health care coverage for example) you can be sure that there are plenty of very desperate people who might end up resorting to crime in order to meet their basic needs.
    Forgeties79 · 1790210879 · focus · HN ↗
    It’s a small nation and frankly most of its “bad” numbers aren’t far off parity with the nation as a whole.
    autoexec · 1790213733 · focus · HN ↗
    If anywhere near half the people in America can't afford to cover their basic needs now we're in for a very dark future.
    Forgeties79 · 1790214726 · focus · HN ↗
    I’m assuming you’re referring to the article you linked.
    40% is not “near half” - it’s closer to 1/3rd than it is half, and I think we would both (rightfully) object to me saying “near 1/3rd.”
    Also, that 40% figure is based on their own definition, not something that is broadly accepted.
    throwaway27448 · 1790196578 · focus · HN ↗
    > California already has those social services
    California has social services. They are not sufficient for the scale of the problem. On top of this there's little incentive for states to build out full social nets when there's open borders between states. This is a job for the federal government and nothing else will be sufficient.
    thinkingtoilet · 1790163274 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes. California is famous for cheap housing. Excellent point.
    Cthulhu_ · 1790163457 · focus · HN ↗
    Europe has plenty of copper theft problems though, but they go for e.g. train lines because they don't know you've got copper phone lines running past your house.
    onemoresoop · 1790165023 · focus · HN ↗
    I was traveling in Europe about 15 years ago, I was going from Paris to Barcelona and the train stopped for seven hours. Turns out a whole copper cable was stolen (live wire) so yeah Europe does have this problem too apparently.
    crote · 1790177757 · focus · HN ↗
    People tend to notice when there are some shady-looking people digging up wiring outside their homes - especially when it coincides with them losing power or connectivity. And it's not like there is much copper inside them, either.
    A huge part of the train lines are fairly isolated, and there's an easily-available schedule of when people (trains) will be there - often even with real-time GPS tracking. And there's a lot of wiring buried there.
    darkwater · 1790167865 · focus · HN ↗
    I live in a European country as well (Spain) and there are probably in the order of 10+ railways incidents per year causing serious issues to mobility due to copper theft. Buy yet, the old copper phone lines are still there...
    boringg · 1790168832 · focus · HN ↗
    One can dream but your solution is wildly unrealistic.
    Its actually not just junkies, you get organized criminals who are stripping solar assets of $ value items.
    PatronBernard · 1790169212 · focus · HN ↗
    Uh copper theft was quite a problem along Belgian train lines for a while.
    NooneAtAll3 · 1790169601 · focus · HN ↗
    it's possible that your line is simply isn't known enough to close enough junkie population
    physicsguy · 1790169865 · focus · HN ↗
    > I live in a European country, where the phone company hasn't bothered to come remove the old unused copper phone lines in the last 5 years. Thousands of dollars worth of cables running past my house alone, and no one has bothered to go strip it in the night and sell it
    Isn't that because they're still flat out on rolling fibre out? There's not that many telecoms engineers and if they spend tons of time removing the old, that slows down the new.
    swiftcoder · 1790177932 · focus · HN ↗
    > Isn't that because they're still flat out on rolling fibre out?
    Spain's rollout is up in the last few percentage points (>95%) of fibre coverage, in this particular region we reached saturation of the entire rural area 5 years ago.
    Plenty of time for those disconnected copper cables to go walkabout if anyone were so inclined. Realistically, in a region where the population skews older and most everyone owns property, it's probably not worth the risk to fence it
    physicsguy · 1790180666 · focus · HN ↗
    We're still quite some way off that in the UK. Copper lines still working though due to shut down by next year I think. Lots of older people with no internet left in the lurch with phone lines with that of course.
    Lio · 1790175668 · focus · HN ↗
    How much cable are we talking about here and can you go into more detail about where your house is located...?
    Joking aside, I'm not sure that metal thefts can totally be blamed on addiction.
    I used to work for a large British Telecoms company, that shall remain nameless. They regularly suffered from certain mobile sections of the community stealing metal.
    They would do things like hack phone cables from telephone polls, attach them to an SUV and attempt to rip them out of the ground, with varying levels of success.
    A week later the same people would break into a works yard in another part of the country after reels of fresh cable. The empty reel would usually be found in a field somewhere after they'd used petrol to burn the casing off.
    I don't think the people involved were doing it for want of housing, healthcare or addiction treatment, as we have all of that in the UK. They just saw it as a source of money.
    Once the law changed to make it a crime to buy scrap metal without a paper trail that cut that down massively.
    swiftcoder · 1790177193 · focus · HN ↗
    > Once the law changed to make it a crime to buy scrap metal without a paper trail that cut that down massively.
    Yeah, that seems like a pretty reasonable solution, all things considered
    SoftTalker · 1790181325 · focus · HN ↗
    There are people who will give you that paper trail, for a price.
    ninalanyon · 1790182214 · focus · HN ↗
    Of course. But the fact that it has a price reduces the size of the market and hence the amount of theft.
    SoftTalker · 1790183269 · focus · HN ↗
    Catalytic converters can't be sold for scrap at all by individuals, yet theft is still a huge problem.
    buellerbueller · 1790186629 · focus · HN ↗
    Seems like the problem would be bigger, if they could be sold by individuals
    Supermancho · 1790182431 · focus · HN ↗
    related: Crosswalks don't stop cars from hitting pedestrians crossing on them. Perfect is the enemy of good.
    nkrisc · 1790186738 · focus · HN ↗
    And that is well into anti-social, intentional criminality territory, so you can have harsh punishment for those crimes and investigate and make examples of people if it remains a problem.
    FridayoLeary · 1790196495 · focus · HN ↗
    >I used to work for a large British Telecoms company, that shall remain nameless. They regularly suffered from certain mobile sections of the community stealing metal.
    I cannot imagine which entities you could possibly be alluding to;)
    >Once the law changed to make it a crime to buy scrap metal without a paper trail that cut that down massively.
    No, you don't understand, it's free healthcare and housing they really need.
    Seriously, I remember it being an epidemic about 13 years ago or so, I wondered what happened. Banning people from buying stolen metal is such an obvious step that I wonder how the UK government ever thought of it.
    [deleted] · 1790176801 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    oldsklgdfth · 1790183113 · focus · HN ↗
    There is an argument to be made, albeit an absurd one, that the introduction of copper seeking junkies into this Euro country would help recycling and improve the carbon footprint.
    Not a serious argument, but an argument.
    MajorTakeaway · 1790183985 · focus · HN ↗
    What footprint are we talking about? Is it emitting carbon into the atmosphere?
    oldsklgdfth · 1790184312 · focus · HN ↗
    It's not the abandoned copper is emitting carbon.
    It's that recycling has a smaller carbon footprint than making new copper from scratch. I think this claim is true for copper, recycling v. manufacturing.
    At the very least this would increase cash flow in your economy. The cash flow coming from junkies and their newly acquired "free" copper are better off and more likely to spend some of their money on goods other than dope.
    Also not a serious argument, but an argument.
    WalterBright · 1790186739 · focus · HN ↗
    It would be better addressed by jailing the thieves.
    Dig1t · 1790188703 · focus · HN ↗
    The USA has gone from 90% white -> 50% in one generation. Social trust is rapidly declining as a result. Just like South Africa, which is the global epicenter of low-trust crimes like copper theft, we are seeing a rise in these types of crimes.
    <a href="https://www.pewresearch.org/2025/05/08/americans-trust-in-one-another/" rel="nofollow">https://www.pewresearch.org/2025/05/08/americans-trust-in-on...
    The poorest Americans do actually have free healthcare (medicaid). It currently covers 40% of all children in the US and generally covers the bottom 25% of Americans. In places like California and New York the state level benefits are even better and apply regardless of immigration status (illegals get free healthcare).
    Free addiction care: <a href="https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/free" rel="nofollow">https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/free
    Most Americans live in a state that has excellent free addiction care, especially in the major population centers like California and New York.
    Housing via emergency housing and subsidized section 8 housing:
    <a href="https://www.usa.gov/emergency-housing" rel="nofollow">https://www.usa.gov/emergency-housing
    <a href="https://www.hud.gov/helping-americans/housing-choice-vouchers-tenants" rel="nofollow">https://www.hud.gov/helping-americans/housing-choice-voucher...
    Heck they even get free/cheap subsidized cell phones and internet service: <a href="https://www.lifelinesupport.org/" rel="nofollow">https://www.lifelinesupport.org/
    swiftcoder · 1790191963 · focus · HN ↗
    > The USA has gone from 90% white -> 50% in one generation.
    This is factually incorrect. The USA hasn't been "90% white" since the 1950s (and even then, you have to count hispanic as white to make the numbers work). It is also still >50% white by pretty much any definition (the 50% claim is based only on children under 18, and requires excluding hispanic from the category).
    That is, if I'm being incredibly generous, 75 years (nearly 4 generations) to go from ~90% to ~50%. Not one generation.
    yellowapple · 1790191146 · focus · HN ↗
    Yeah, but that would require billionaires to pay taxes, and that's simply unacceptable.
    [deleted] · 1790196444 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    rdbl27 · 1790197276 · focus · HN ↗
    California is as socialist as many European countries. It has _extensive_ social services along the lines of what you describe.
    These make the problem worse, rather than better, by enabling.
    Junkies get a free apartment from the city, free food, free healthcare, free clothes... and now have unlimited free time to go scam cash for a fix.
    Free taxpayer-funded rehab? Exists, but almost none take it. That would reduce their drugs time. Forcing treatment would be cruel and oppressive, according to the left. So the cycle continues.
    Perepiska · 1790332572 · focus · HN ↗
    Let set diameter of your European (signal!) telephone cable to 0.5 mm and diameter of copper (power!) bus cable in the US to 5 mm. They has 10x linear difference and 100x difference in copper. I am sure that 5 mm cables will be stolen in Europe as fast as in California.

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