Thread

1. nbf_1995 · 1790086541 · focus · HN ↗

   It seems like it would be more effective to simply put all the solar panels in a field, and construct a cheap shade over the entire canal no? The supports in the picture are massive and don't look cheap. Also I would imagine the solar array uses more copper than a similar capacity array just built in a field. You can't daisy chain multiple miles of solar panels together, so you need an extra power line to run alongside the whole thing.

   Put the solar panels in a field: The solar array uses less copper. The shade supports don't have to hold up solar panels: Shade supports cost less.

   The best reasoning they give is that California has insane permitting requirements, and it takes 1/6 the time to build on developed land compared to undeveloped land.

   1. schnevets · 1790111056 · focus · HN ↗

      Anecdotally speaking, I have heard of a massive California solar farm in an undeveloped area that has serious vandalism problems. Junkies will find ways through the fencing at night, strip copper and other materials from panels, and cause thousands in damages and lost energy just to extract enough scrap for a fix.

      Nothing short of a face-to-face security response will deter these criminals, so there it is a challenging cost-benefit balance. At least panels in parking lots and other developed spaces have the benefit of witnesses. I'm sure a 20 foot climb up a steel beam over running water is a decent deterrent as well.

      1. swiftcoder · 1790149813 · focus · HN ↗

         > Junkies will find ways through the fencing at night, strip copper and other materials from panels, and cause thousands in damages and lost energy just to extract enough scrap for a fix

         I live in a European country, where the phone company hasn't bothered to come remove the old unused copper phone lines in the last 5 years. Thousands of dollars worth of cables running past my house alone, and no one has bothered to go strip it in the night and sell it

         This feels like one of those USA problems that would be better addressed by funding decent social services (free healthcare, cheap housing, addiction treatment programs, etc).

         1. inglor_cz · 1790154189 · focus · HN ↗

            Swiftcoder, I don't think we Europeans have a recipe for treating fentanyl addiction.

            We are just lucky that this horrible drug isn't as accessible here as it is in Cali.

            BTW recently I spent eight hours in a stopped train because a family of career criminals decided to steal cables from the railway. They didn't even escape, they were immediately caught with their loot, but the damage was done and thousands were stranded on the main rail corridor in Moravia deep into the night. I was home at 3 AM instead of 7 PM.

            There is no treatment for this sort of stupidity where people do damage to themselves and to everyone else because of a really bad judgment.

            My friend was in prison for causing a serious road accident. Some six months. When he came back, he commented that most of the repeat offenders are just stupid as f*ck, unable to put two and two together, getting repeatedly caught over crimes done impulsively and without due preparation.

            1. retired · 1790155218 · focus · HN ↗

               I really hope we don't get a California situation. If you look at the addicts at the Frankfurt train station, that is starting to look like Skid Row.

               1. fch42 · 1790179836 · focus · HN ↗

                  "Wir Kinder vom Bahnhof Zoo" probably rings a bell for you. With respect to drug addiction, in Europe/Germany at least, I'm more inclined to say "little has changed in 40 years" than to say "things are worse now".

                  It's sobering to think we've not made much inroads into giving addicts a better perspective (or getting "preemptive" messaging across) in all that time.

            2. Cthulhu_ · 1790163801 · focus · HN ↗

               > There is no treatment for this sort of stupidity where people do damage to themselves and to everyone else because of a really bad judgment.

               I'd argue there is; why do people steal stuff? Because it's easier and more profitable than jobs they can do. What's the solution? Meaningful employment for everyone. People generally don't steal if they earn a living wage that doesn't kill them. (some still would because they get a kick out of it though but there's therapy available for them if they want to change)

               1. swiftcoder · 1790165450 · focus · HN ↗

                  We also have ample evidence that you can solve this sort of problem via UBI. As politically inconvenient as that result has proven to be...

                  1. FeloniousHam · 1790169972 · focus · HN ↗

                     ...would that this (micro) evidence actually show that, and had any hope of practical scale without unintendeded consequences...
                  2. fakedang · 1790177693 · focus · HN ↗

                     UBI is not the panacea imo. We need UBS, and not the bank - universal basic services. Whether that's healthcare, education, unemployment, free transportation, food stamps for the needy, housing loans, more government jobs, etc.

                     UBI was an experiment carried out during COVID and all it did was elevate prices and push a lot of people into Robinhood, while elevating the debt crisis.

                     1. swiftcoder · 1790180716 · focus · HN ↗

                        > UBI was an experiment carried out during COVID and all it did...

                        I would not put the one-time covid cheques on par with the various rigorous UBI and/or free housing experiments that have been run over the last 30 years

                        1. fakedang · 1790182606 · focus · HN ↗

                           But the COVID cheques were the only ones done at a scale comparable enough to what a UBI programme would look like in the US, one that could inform government on what usage would look like.

                           Free housing is just another form of UBS that I was talking about.

                  3. fch42 · 1790179520 · focus · HN ↗

                     I do wonder; my naive expectation is that while it will solve "petty criminality out of need" it would do little to "pretty criminality out of boredom / for-fun".

                     And BI would be attacked for the latter - some ingrateful on-basic-income person committing vandalism for no financial benefit. It's the "workhouse"/"treadmill" argument - supposedly boredom breeds crime and people must be made to work, even pointless or below-poverty tasks, else the streets get taken over by criminals or worse.

                     Like tourists taking over the country.

                     Arguments acknowledging (and steering / manipulating) feelings weigh stronger here than economic facts, alas.

                     1. vladvasiliu · 1790183449 · focus · HN ↗

                        Right. Where I live, there is plenty of vandalism. Breaking public benches, defecating in public toilets outside the bowl, rampant littering when there are trash cans all over the place, etc.

                        There's no financial gain in that. Doing this won't get you healthcare (we've got socialized healthcare anyway, and it's pretty much free for "the poor"), won't help you eat. It's just stupid, antisocial people. How would giving them money help any of that?

               2. inglor_cz · 1790183152 · focus · HN ↗

                  Because it's easier and more profitable than jobs they can do. What's the solution? Meaningful employment for everyone. People generally don't steal if they earn a living wage that doesn't kill them.

                  You seem to believe that everyone wants to work. I don't think this is a given.

                  You also seem to believe that people who steal are just trying to make ends meet. Quite a lot of thiefs are addicts who steal to feed their drug habit. Given the cost of drugs in the street, unless they have really good jobs (and can keep them even when taking drugs), they will resort to stealing just to be able to buy their fix.

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