Thread

Android 17 is the first since 3.x to add new APIs without releasing to the AOSP

1180 points · 723 comments · theanonymousone

wps · 1789760710 · focus · HN ↗
The amount of roadblocks Google is putting up for GrapheneOS is just ridiculous. None of their decisions make any sense, from the delayed source patches upstream, to the embargos, attestation issues, etc. Google simply regrets android being open source.
1. godelski · 1789763541 · focus · HN ↗
  I hope people remember this when advocating for chromium. Just because it is open source doesn't mean they don't control it. We need to start the long process of hard forking now or turn to alternatives like Firefox as a new foundation.
  > Google simply regrets android being open source.
  Android wouldn't be what it is if it wasn't open source. With all the work from outside Google. The same is true chrome.
  But they won't learn that on their own. They are breaking the deals. So we move. We force their hand
  1. nomel · 1789763674 · focus · HN ↗
    > So we move. We force their hand
    What do you have in mind?
    JumpCrisscross · 1789765710 · focus · HN ↗
    Donate to Ladybird <a href="https://ladybird.org/" rel="nofollow">https://ladybird.org/
    jm4 · 1789766369 · focus · HN ↗
    They have their own problems. They may be "open source", but they don't accept contributions. I'm skeptical it will ever become more than a hobby project.
    tech234a · 1789767198 · focus · HN ↗
    Commit activity actually increased after they blocked external contributions in June: <a href="https://github.com/LadybirdBrowser/ladybird/graphs/commit-activity" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/LadybirdBrowser/ladybird/graphs/commit-ac...
    whimblepop · 1790112704 · focus · HN ↗
    Does "external" contributors effectively mean drive-by contributors? I assume there's still more than a single developer, and it's somehow possible to be admitted as a member of the project if you have some existing public reputation.
    tech234a · 1791253031 · focus · HN ↗
    Website says: "Ladybird is open source, developed by a small team in the open. You can help by filing bug reports, creating reductions, testing websites, reporting security issues, and sharing technical feedback." [1]
    [1]: <a href="https://ladybird.org/" rel="nofollow">https://ladybird.org/
    ragnese · 1789769020 · focus · HN ↗
    Is not accepting contributions the only/biggest issue you have with the project? I'm honestly becoming more and more okay with the "cathedral" style of open source. Depending on the project, catering to "the community" can lead a loss of focus, lack of a cohesive "vision" or scope, and just generally trying to be everything to everyone without the resources to maintain a giant beast.
    With something like a browser (engine), I'm totally okay with someone saying "I'm an expert and I'm trying something with my own vision/priorities. I don't want input from random people that I have to spend time evaluating."
    seb1204 · 1789774008 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes I can relate to this. Picking good, valuable feedback out of the noise has become a chore.
    takeda · 1789774295 · focus · HN ↗
    It's on BSD license, Google or someone else can again Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.
    bigstrat2003 · 1789793371 · focus · HN ↗
    That is not possible. Google, or anyone else, can make a fork of the project. But they can't take away the original from the commons.
    akho · 1789813122 · focus · HN ↗
    This post is _about_ how that is both possible and common.
    Only GPL is somewhat immune, because Stallman was always right.
    takeda · 1790010293 · focus · HN ↗
    The reason why they can make Android close source but not the kernel used is because the former is has ASF 2.0 while the later has GPL license.
    soraminazuki · 1789788084 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    GalaxyNova · 1789804382 · focus · HN ↗
    I don't think he said anything factually incorrect though?
    soraminazuki · 1789806541 · focus · HN ↗
    And yet again comes someone pretending as if a far right rant embracing racism and white victimhood is some sort of objective truth seeking. It's unfortunate that this has become so normalized here.
    hobo123 · 1789819864 · focus · HN ↗
    Where in those comments is the "white replacement theorist"?
    soraminazuki · 1789822298 · focus · HN ↗
    > White males are actively discriminated against
    The words are unambiguous and not up for debate.
    hobo123 · 1789824423 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm assuming he was talking about a specific situation where discrimination occurred? Anyway that's two completely different things.
    simondotau · 1789831164 · focus · HN ↗
    “Not up for debate” is a much scarier string of words than anything that guy has said.
    soraminazuki · 1789862898 · focus · HN ↗
    Debating the meaning of words in order to avoid owning what you explicitly said or supported whenever it's inconvenient should be condemned. What kind of person would be scared by that over someone supporting an advocate of the ethnic cleansing of London?
    simondotau · 1790155535 · focus · HN ↗
    If someone says a word has a different meaning, then that necessarily affects the meaning of what they said. You are not in a position to assert that your interpretation of their words is more objective than theirs, unless you're explicitly intending to be intellectually dishonest, or come with further evidence proving their intellectual dishonesty.
    soraminazuki · 1790176988 · focus · HN ↗
    If you're being intellectually honest, you would explain which parts of the words I quoted is ambiguous instead of questioning my integrity with vague hypotheticals.
    simondotau · 1790651539 · focus · HN ↗
    I don't know anything about the specific statements you were referring to, nor did I ever claim to. It's entirely possible I might even agree with you on the specifics.
    None of that is necessary for my comments to be intellectually honest. My prior posts in this thread stand on their own as statements of principle: that declaring an interpretation "not up for debate" is intellectually empty. If you choose a normatively loaded assertion in place of a good-faith argument about meaning, you're not resolving the disagreement; you're simply declaring your own interpretation authoritative, to no end.
    That's literally how primary school children argue in the school yard.
    isityettime · 1789855023 · focus · HN ↗
    It seems to me like the more intellectually honest characterization of things like hiring quotas and admissions quotas is "discrimination in the interest of the good" or "compensatory discrimination" rather than "this isn't discrimination". It's not a little-known practice and it doesn't negatively affect only white men (it also negatively affects East Asian men, for instance).
    If you think those hiring practices are justified against a backdrop of ongoing white supremacy, patriarchy, etc., say that. If you think they're only a small adjustment in the big picture in a world where tacit norms of credibility, transgenerational wealth, and interpersonal connections still overwhelmingly favor white men, say that. But when someone says "hiring practices actively try to tell people apart by race and ethnicity in a way that disfavors my odds" and you reply amounts "nuh-uh, and you can't say that!", you frankly weaken the left. Stop it.
    s1artibartfast · 1789852615 · focus · HN ↗
    These tweets all seem extremely reasonable and resonates with my experience.
    White males don't have a monopoly on discrimination but it certainly exists.
    When I worked at a fortune 50 company my annual bonus was dependent on how many minorities I hired. When I was job shopping I was told directly by recruiters that white males should not apply, but if I know any minorities to send them their way
    soraminazuki · 1789862208 · focus · HN ↗
    Where is the data that shows there are a disproportionate number of white men among the unemployed population? Without that data, this kind of rhetoric can only be seen as a pretext for actual discrimination.
    Also, you think jumping to support someone who got backlash for claiming that only a third of the London population (aka white people) are "native" to the city and the rest should be driven out of their homes is "extremely reasonable"? It boggles my mind that people are lining up to say how normal this is. It's anything but.
    s1artibartfast · 1789869924 · focus · HN ↗
    No disproportionate number of men are required for their to discrimination going on. Its not a competition.
    Discrimination could occur at the individual level. If I fire someone the color of their skin, but the numbers balance out somewhere, I still committed an act of discrimination.
    Also,I dont care about their back story. I suspect you and I have very different understanding of truth if you think them having said something offensive means everything else they say is false.
    That sounds exhausting. I'll judge the truth of a given statement by its contents.
    soraminazuki · 1789875255 · focus · HN ↗
    None of that makes any sense whatsoever. In your hypothetical scenario where "the numbers balance out," that's by definition indiscriminate termination. You can't discriminate without it showing up in the numbers because that's how math works.
    It's also offensive that you accuse me of fallaciously bringing up an unrelated story. You said the "tweets all seem extremely reasonable," including the one where Kling viciously defended DHH's call for ethnic cleansing in London. There is no "backstory" here.
    s1artibartfast · 1789884896 · focus · HN ↗
    Then we have different definitions. Discrimination is a matter of bias and motive. Statistics are irrelevant.
    For some definitions of systemic discrimination, you may look for an effect, but even that doesn't rule out two way discrimination.
    If a black person is lynched by a racist for their skin color, and a white person is lynched by a racist for their skin color, there is still a hell of a lot of discriminatory behavior happening.
    If you personally hold that events themselves cannot be discriminatory, even if they are motivated by racial bias or malice, you will continually run into disagreement with others.
    The overwhelming majority of people and legal systems recognize that events can be discriminatory. If you fire someone and provide their skin color as the reason, you will lose that discrimination lawsuit in every state in the US, no matter your statistical fetish.
    soraminazuki · 1789917941 · focus · HN ↗
    Statistical fetish? That's one hell of a way to turn your lack of proof into an ad hominem attack.
    If people are being fired for being white and male, then the number of unemployed white men increases. It's that simple.
    s1artibartfast · 1789919080 · focus · HN ↗
    oh come on, at least try to engage with what I said
    s1artibartfast · 1789886013 · focus · HN ↗
    PS, I dont see anything I would call vicious, any mention of london, or any mention of ethnic cleansing
    soraminazuki · 1789918646 · focus · HN ↗
    The tweet clearly mentions that he "stands with @dhh" citing backlash against his "racist and transphobic views." You called that "extremely reasonable" and you should own it.

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