Improper redaction reveals Google Data Center water and electricity usage
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Unofficial Hacker News client; not affiliated with Y Combinator.
Improper redaction reveals Google Data Center water and electricity usage
Unofficial Hacker News client; not affiliated with Y Combinator.
tptacek · · focus · HN ↗
demibabs · · focus · HN ↗
I think the 13M is referring to “during peak times”, whatever that means.
XMPPwocky · · focus · HN ↗
> However, using a computer cursor to highlight the redacted text box in the report to DWEE, then copying and pasting it into a separate document reveals that *Agate LLC* is reporting 52.65 megawatts of electricity during peak electrical demand and 13.299 megagallons of water between cooling towers, evaporative systems and site operations in the last year. That totals out to 13 million gallons of water.
> For context, 13 million gallons is enough to fill around 20 Olympic-size swimming pools, and is less than half of what the City of Lincoln reports using on Sept. 29.
> The *six* data centers reporting as of Sept. 30 show a total use of 765 million gallons of water last year, enough water to fill 1,159.93 Olympic-size swimming pools.
> More improper redaction shows that the data center using the most water annually is *Fireball Group LLC*, the Google Data Center in Papillion. Fireball LLC reports 547.88 megagallons for their 2025 Annual Water Consumption.
tptacek · · focus · HN ↗
grebc · · focus · HN ↗
So while pointing to agriculture and saying look there - those guys & gals way more than us it’s a red herring because we need food.
Sure improve efficiency of ag, but a better comp for water usage should be made. Reasonable people tune out.
arccy · · focus · HN ↗
logicprog · · focus · HN ↗
nradov · · focus · HN ↗
hexasquid · · focus · HN ↗
bpodgursky · · focus · HN ↗
rtpg · · focus · HN ↗
One shouldn't assume that evaporated water comes back into the system in the place you want it to. Water management orgs try to reduce loss from evaporation for a reason!
bpodgursky · · focus · HN ↗
tptacek · · focus · HN ↗
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jpalawaga · · focus · HN ↗
deckar01 · · focus · HN ↗
tptacek · · focus · HN ↗
linsomniac · · focus · HN ↗
How so? NOT COUNTING leaks and filling, the average Olympic sized swimming pool uses 1-2 million gallons of water a year.
See EPA Commercial Pooland Spa Equipment Best Management Practices for Commercial and Institutional Facilities <a href="https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2023-11/ws-commercial-bmp-watersenseatwork_section5.3_commercialpoolsandspas.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2023-11/ws-commer...
TeMPOraL · · focus · HN ↗
It's basically like framing power consumption in watt hours. A million watt hours is tiny at any scale, your whole neighborhood uses millions every day.
ordersofmag · · focus · HN ↗
kube-system · · focus · HN ↗
A typical single family home uses over 100K gallons.
deckar01 · · focus · HN ↗
tptacek · · focus · HN ↗
deckar01 · · focus · HN ↗
dekhn · · focus · HN ↗
So probably we could grow fewer almonds in California.
dotancohen · · focus · HN ↗
In other words, water scarcity is a distribution problem, not a globally finite resource problem.
AlotOfReading · · focus · HN ↗
maccard · · focus · HN ↗
throwaway13mm · · focus · HN ↗
rezonant · · focus · HN ↗
fishingisfun · · focus · HN ↗
jpalawaga · · focus · HN ↗
if you look at household water consumption, most places in north america treat their water and return it to a freshwater source. you can scale cities very wide and water use might go up, but the consumption rate is actually low. more depending on how much people water their lawns.
farms on the other hand 'spray water on the ground' but it actually removes the water from the freshwater source and needs to be replenished.
leaks is water loss/consumption. human activity is no guarantee. leak in this case is still bad.
goda90 · · focus · HN ↗
mrb · · focus · HN ↗
The water bill alone would be only $100k/yr assuming average US domestic rate of $8 per 1000 gallons.
bix6 · · focus · HN ↗
creato · · focus · HN ↗
bix6 · · focus · HN ↗
Dylan16807 · · focus · HN ↗
Also when it evaporates instead of going to the sewer that drops the price in half.
Edit: Oops I got that mixed up and was treating it like a per-faucet cost. So actually it's one full household income converted into water to handle the entire facility.
bix6 · · focus · HN ↗
Dylan16807 · · focus · HN ↗
Do you think people look at big facilities and calculate that they're spending whatever times the medium wage on a crucial service and get mad about it?
Converting things into median wages is a way to put them into scale. They spent this many wages for construction, they spend this many on supplies, they sell this many in product, they hire this many people to work there. If anyone thinks its bad for anything a company buys to exceed a median wage, that's a very silly expectation and I wonder where they got it.
WarmWash · · focus · HN ↗
quietsegfault · · focus · HN ↗
alpaca128 · · focus · HN ↗
xnx · · focus · HN ↗
Groxx · · focus · HN ↗
Your only gains would come from whatever increased surface area the system has, radiating energy however it can. But a radiator without any water involved would be as good or better. Air-cooled datacenters do exist, they're just trading other costs and usually can't release as much heat.
Dylan16807 · · focus · HN ↗
If you had to use heat pumps to move all that out of the water, you'd have to spend about a million dollars on their electricity. If you're somewhere that you can use unassisted radiators all year, great. If you need to force the heat out part of the year, that easily gets worse than boiling off water.
rtpg · · focus · HN ↗
So ~280 households worth of water? Though the US seems to be on the high end, using 3x more than Japan and 4x more than France (according to a random website)[1]
To state the obvious most people are not running big faucets all the time, and in fact are using way less.
It seems like a bit of a self-own to not just use household or per-capita usage here to prove a point though.
[0]: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residential_water_use_in_the_U.S._and_Canada" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residential_water_use_in_the_U... [1]: <a href="https://www.worldometers.info/water/" rel="nofollow">https://www.worldometers.info/water/
WarmWash · · focus · HN ↗
If we instead look at almonds, something that is a bit of a luxury nut and not at all a necessity, each almond takes about 1 gallon of water to grow.
A single truck shipment of almonds contains somewhere around 40-50 million almonds all packed up ready for their delivery to Costo or wherever.
So to frame this another way, Google's DC uses approximately 1/3 of a single truck load of almonds worth of water a year. Most almonds are grown in drought stricken California as well.
I'm sure we'll be staging the protests and forgoing our emerald nuts 100 cal snack packs any day now.
Waterluvian · · focus · HN ↗
I like when a framing offers a bunch of equivalents. Then the reader can be distracted and horrified by a bunch of issues simultaneously.
tptacek · · focus · HN ↗
If you actually care about water use, you stop producing ethanol. But nobody really cares about water; that's not what this is about.
chii · · focus · HN ↗
you've hit the silent nail on the head.
The complaints about data centers are really complaints against ai and its encroachment into people's lives (more specifically, they fear for their jobs due to ai).
If people truly cared so much about the environment, where were their complaints about climate change and such?
It's the same with the recent hype about how AI going rogue or is gonna kill us all if we reach AGI.
None of these are real threats, compared to the threat of climate change, where there's a real threat of crop failures enmass due to consistently extreme weather, and coastal erosion sinking cities, etc. We'll hit this before we reach AGI no doubt.
Teever · · focus · HN ↗
Meta recently announced that they want to put a ~2.0 gigawatt DC about 70km from where I live. The provincial government played up the ~60 million that Meta would be doing int he area and the ~250 million in annual tax revenue that they would receive but none of the conversation focused on the wasted opportunity of using the heat generated from this facility to in greenhouses that could operate year round in our cold climate.
That frustrates me because the waste heat from that single facility alone could go a long way to bootstrapping a greenhouse industry here that would go a long way to ensuring food sovereignty in the region. But of course sovereignty and self-sufficiency are antithetical to the purpose of this AI infrastructure, our government lacks the foresight or will to maximize returns from these kinds of things, and people collectively lacks the ability to think and talk about these things.
So the best we can do is inconsequential conversation about water usage.
rtpg · · focus · HN ↗
For a small locality it is a real amount of water. And if there's a draining reservoir, then that's _even more_ water being pulled out of a reservoir.
The almond discussion is tiring as well. We're not growing almonds in most of the world. The water in Montana isn't the water in Cali as well.
If the facts aren't on your side on a specific issue, at least have the courage to accept it.
> I'm sure we'll be staging the protests and forgoing our emerald nuts 100 cal snack packs any day now.
People protest golf course water usage. Water usage problems in Cali are not as big of a concern to people in Montana than water usage in Montana.
And of course there are people who think that the added buildout of data centers _for AI usage_ (people acting like "oh these data centers are just from everything", let's not kid ourselves what the source of the demand is) is a net negative. People don't think that about food.
Personally I think we shouldn't be setting up massive farms in a desert (and perhaps just figure out how to make society work in a way where during winter we accept having less fresh veggies available) either.
Data center defenders need to get better talking points, cuz they sound very silly (perhaps as silly as the arguments heard on the other side!)
WarmWash · · focus · HN ↗
Montana exports tons of petroleum products and beef. Should I illustrate how those industries also uses orders of magnitude more water than datacenters?
In fact, I would be impressed if you could come up with a single locale where a datacenter would be the primary water consumer. Even top 3 would be kind of impressive.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say other than "datacenters use water and I don't like it, and yeah those other industires in the area use 10-100x more, but like, I don't like datascneters so we need to focus on that"
I think the real snag is that average people have absolutely -zero- concept of how much water industry uses. Your local recycling plant washes all that dirty plastic you throw in the recycling to the tune of thousands of gallons an hour. And you're learning this right now for the first time in your life. But sure, datacenters running water through metal pipes, five alarm crisis here
[deleted] · · focus · HN ↗
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subroutine · · focus · HN ↗
causesothere · · focus · HN ↗
mrb · · focus · HN ↗
Other issues than water are far worse, like pollution associated with the manufacturing and running of all the data center gear. Water is not the issue.
fallingbananna · · focus · HN ↗
I wouldn't be surprised if this 4x difference was purely caused by lawns.
[deleted] · · focus · HN ↗
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gspr · · focus · HN ↗
TeMPOraL · · focus · HN ↗
gspr · · focus · HN ↗
bluecheese452 · · focus · HN ↗
fragmede · · focus · HN ↗
motbus3 · · focus · HN ↗
I think at some point someone used the argument of the spoon of water to say about the quantity, but I remember to see explanations that it was unrelated.
TeMPOraL · · focus · HN ↗
Part of why construction of such buildings (starting with pursuing and getting a permit for it) takes as long as it does is because those issues are worked out in advance.
Nobody who is responsible for managing water is surprised by data centers appearing, it's not like they just grow overnight after a rain like people believe mushrooms do.
bryzaguy · · focus · HN ↗
JKCalhoun · · focus · HN ↗
christophilus · · focus · HN ↗
bluecheese452 · · focus · HN ↗
zetsurin · · focus · HN ↗
tptacek · · focus · HN ↗
numbsafari · · focus · HN ↗
It’s not any one thing, it is the litany of things they do in order to avoid any transparency or accountability. It is undemocratic and contradictory to the idea of good governance of public resources.
If anything, a little sunshine here would probably be the best medicine. Trying to be opaque is what allows conspiracy theories to exist in the first place.
tptacek · · focus · HN ↗
brudgers · · focus · HN ↗
Alphabet could have named the company “google data center 083941, llc.”
But Alphabet deliberately obfuscated its control of the facility.
epistasis · · focus · HN ↗
It would be odder if it were directly in Google's business name.
packetslave · · focus · HN ↗
dom96 · · focus · HN ↗
flippingheck · · focus · HN ↗
Companies might want to avoid this being used as a side channel to infer the amount of their compute.
Companies might want to avoid setting a precedent where activists can demand such information.
Companies might want to avoid the effort of publishing this data, or the risk of publishing incorrect data.
chii · · focus · HN ↗
none of these are reason for the country not to demand transparent data for monitoring.
Being able to monitor things properly has high societal value - it prevents fraud (more data being visible makes it harder to fake). It prevents skirting regulations, and makes it easier for competitors to sniff out high margin opportunities (which serves to break monopolies in some sense).
Not to mention that statistics collected could have value in aggregate in research sometime in the future.
Like auditing and accounting, the country should mandate transparent data reporting of utilities usage for all industries.
tptacek · · focus · HN ↗
mhh__ · · focus · HN ↗
heaney-555 · · focus · HN ↗
Facts & reason do nothing to a moral panic.
jerbearito · · focus · HN ↗
ddosmax556 · · focus · HN ↗
jeffbee · · focus · HN ↗
throwaway13mm · · focus · HN ↗
lowbloodsugar · · focus · HN ↗
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jeffbee · · focus · HN ↗
jerbearito · · focus · HN ↗
tptacek · · focus · HN ↗
rotbart · · focus · HN ↗
tptacek · · focus · HN ↗
titzer · · focus · HN ↗
tptacek · · focus · HN ↗
d--b · · focus · HN ↗
At what point does it become significant? I’d think 200 olympic swimming pool worth of water taken out of the local ecology would have some impact. I guess it depends on the region.
The article doesnt say though if all the water ends up evaporated.
etdznots · · focus · HN ↗