Thread

1. hattar · 1790888358 · focus · HN ↗

   I currently drive a mid 2000s Ford truck, which runs great and meets my needs, but lately I got interested in minivans/people carriers. I pretty quickly realized that newer vehicles seem to not just record, but export a lot of driving data.

   The minivan market is small. There are really only 4-5 available and every single one sends telemetry data from the car and makes it hard/impossible to opt out of selling your data. Additionally, without pretty extensive work there is no means of physically disabling the telemetry, which forces you to trust they'll honor your opt out request (vs re-enabling it with some update).

   I'm clearly in the vast minority on this, but it's so frustrating that there are no options beyond buying and installing a third-party bypass to disable this type of tracking. Worse, I'm aware that the absence of data is data itself. Is my insurance going raise my rates because my vehicle won't provide telemetry for them to buy?

   1. mistrial9 · 1790888986 · focus · HN ↗

      > absence of data is data itself

      oh that is endless.. if you are aware enough to do something about telemetry IMHO do that and don't obsess about loose ends.

      1. helterskelter2 · 1790889971 · focus · HN ↗

         I wonder how easy it would be to spoof the data sent back. Either with SQL injections, LLM prompt modification, or just thousands of goatse images.

         1. Iolaum · 1790890678 · focus · HN ↗

            And risk having lawyers after you?

            1. tejtm · 1790892931 · focus · HN ↗

               I am pretty sure goatse does not have lawers and the RIAA disavows their collection
            2. antonvs · 1790894824 · focus · HN ↗

               What exactly are lawyers going to do?

               It’s foolish to be afraid of nonexistent threats.

         2. MrDrMcCoy · 1790916464 · focus · HN ↗

            Spoofing is all well and fine, but you can do more. Put as much bandwidth through that modem as possible. Those connections are meant for light data telemetry and their carrier agreement probably has caps. All the better and more expensive for them if they don't.
   2. sippingabonedry · 1790889053 · focus · HN ↗

      Ford until recently sold a minivan that was ugly as sin (looked like an '87 Vanagon) because it was a panel van with seats added. They are popular with the campervan community.

      As it was essentially a commercial vehicle meant for upfitters turning them into work vans for electricians and plumbers, it would probably be easiest of all to disable telemetry.

      From what I can find, permanently disabling FordPass at the hardware level is as simple as unplugging the cell modem or pulling its fuse.

      1. renjimen · 1790890582 · focus · HN ↗

         I have the Ford Transit Connect "Wagon". It's a 2016 model with no internet connectivity. It can fit a double mattress in the back and is tall enough to sit up on the bed, unlike nearly every SUV. I cannot recommend it enough for an everyday vehicle that doubles as a camper.

         Of course, Ford discontinued this model in North America because their margins are better on trucks and SUVs.

         As for the aesthetics, we really like it. It's certainly a darn sight better looking than a truck or SUV, which are all aggressive-looking pedestrian killers.

         1. sippingabonedry · 1790891811 · focus · HN ↗

            That's the one.

            It's reminiscent of a time when vans were vans — but it shares most of its parts with the Focus so should be relatively easy to maintain and repair.

            1. rootusrootus · 1790893751 · focus · HN ↗

               > shares most of its parts with the Focus

               Hopefully not the transmission.

               1. [deleted] · 1790894845 · focus · HN ↗

                  [deleted]

               2. fingerlocks · 1790931080 · focus · HN ↗

                  Yes, the transmission too. Never buy a used connect from a person that used it in the trades.

                  1. aduty · 1790939873 · focus · HN ↗

                     Fix or recall daily cares not for how it was abused.
                  2. [deleted] · 1790959795 · focus · HN ↗

                     [deleted]

      2. duskdozer · 1790921312 · focus · HN ↗

         What I hate about this is that there is a minimal amount of connectivity that I would actually want. If there was a bad crash and I'm incapacitated, I would want emergency services to be called. But I want basically nothing else. Well unless you count an FM radio 'connectivity' I guess. I hate the coercive tactics so many modern tech devices use.
   3. helterskelter2 · 1790889825 · focus · HN ↗

      I know some models of Ford allow you to pull the modem out. It doesn't even nag you about a connection problem.
   4. detourdog · 1790890007 · focus · HN ↗

      Buy a slightly used one that has a 3g modem. My 2018 car no longer can phone home.

      1. asdff · 1790890949 · focus · HN ↗

         That is interesting that they fail safe and don't just brick the car though. Maybe you can still go with a newer car but just wrap the antennae in foil or maybe just unplug it.

         1. [deleted] · 1790892067 · focus · HN ↗

            [deleted]

         2. Rebelgecko · 1790892174 · focus · HN ↗

            IIRC, some brand (maybe Subaru?) had a problem where the car would drain its 12v after a few hours retrying its search for 3g towers

            1. [deleted] · 1790892473 · focus · HN ↗

               [deleted]

            2. slices · 1790946691 · focus · HN ↗

               yep. my mom's subaru ate several batteries due to this problem. She traded it in.
         3. MrDrMcCoy · 1790916175 · focus · HN ↗

            There are 50ohm antenna pigtails for just such a purpose.
         4. intrasight · 1790942785 · focus · HN ↗

            > just brick the car

            Consumer protections are strong enough to prevent that from happening.

            My vehicle of choice for the last 16 years has been the Volvo XC70 which, since it was last manufactured in 2016, only ever had 3G modems, which no longer work. It's luxurious, a great form-factor, safe and reliable, and can be had for less than $10K. The one I'm driving now was the proverbial old lady vehicle. It had only 30,000 miles on it when I bought it three years ago. It could be the last vehicle I ever owned since they're good for 200k miles.

            Funny story on my previous XC70. I sell my cars through a classic car restorer that also does consignment sales. The manager there wanted another vehicle, so he made me an offer directly which I accepted. I let them have the vehicle for a few days before the transaction. He called me and asked when the last time I changed the oil was. I said that I have no idea. He said it appears that there's no oil in the engine. That's how robust those old Volvo engines are. He went through with the transaction and is still driving it.

            Apologies for the long sales pitch on old vehicles and specifically Volvos, LOL.

            1. detourdog · 1790949446 · focus · HN ↗

               I started with 850 wagon and progressed to xc70. I loved those car but wanted an electric.

               1. intrasight · 1790959216 · focus · HN ↗

                  I want an electric too, but between also wanting a cheap car and one that doesn't spy on me, I just feel I have no choice but to stick to these older vehicles
            2. ls612 · 1791132828 · focus · HN ↗

               State level consumer protections don’t protect you from federal “this software is licensed not sold”
         5. detourdog · 1790949558 · focus · HN ↗

            It’s scary that in this day and age we are surprised when the big corps don’t brick products that impede advertising.
         6. kortilla · 1791046582 · focus · HN ↗

            You do know that places don’t have cell phone coverage at all still, right?

            1. detourdog · 1791142771 · focus · HN ↗

               I live in place that coverage frequently disappears.
      2. ThinkingGuy · 1790893680 · focus · HN ↗

         This is the way.
   5. renjimen · 1790890864 · focus · HN ↗

      If you don't mind used, the Ford Transit Connect Wagon is an excellent option for an everyday vehicle that doubles as a camper. We have one and love it. It fits a double mattress with plenty of headroom room to sit up in bed. Ford discontinued it in 2023, hence the used requirement, but I believe you can turn off the internet connectivity on that model. We have a 2016 model (still going strong after 150,000km!) which has no internet connectivity, thankfully.
   6. [deleted] · 1790891749 · focus · HN ↗

      [deleted]

   7. Barbing · 1790892965 · focus · HN ↗

      > Is my insurance going raise my rates because my vehicle won't provide telemetry for them to buy?

      Thanks, I hate it.

      1. kulahan · 1790893512 · focus · HN ↗

         Already happening. To get the lowest rates from some companies, you have to install monitoring software in your car. We missed the boat on this one.

         One example: if you don’t get it from State Farm, you can pay 30% more in insurance costs.

         <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.statefarm.com&#x2F;insurance&#x2F;auto&#x2F;discounts&#x2F;drive-safe-save" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.statefarm.com&#x2F;insurance&#x2F;auto&#x2F;discounts&#x2F;drive-saf...

         1. SoftTalker · 1790895019 · focus · HN ↗

            A bargain.
         2. hansvm · 1790895482 · focus · HN ↗

            I tried using an older version of that program, and it was especially annoying because it only worked if you let it monitor and phone home continuously, not just while driving. If the app couldn&#x27;t steal your information often enough, you were disqualified from the program, stating that it assumed you were hiding some driving activity.
      2. m463 · 1790895457 · focus · HN ↗

         You can get tesla insurance and it monitors your driving.

         If you do not agree to this monitoring, they will not insure you.

         also, full self driving (or autosteer) both require the cabin camera to be enabled and to monitor you.

         1. kridsdale1 · 1790908550 · focus · HN ↗

            Tape over it.

            1. MrDrMcCoy · 1790916594 · focus · HN ↗

               Replace the camera feed with a looping video stream.
            2. techdmn · 1790951378 · focus · HN ↗

               I taped over all my Tesla cameras (except the backup camera). The real issue was that the person I&#x27;m teaching to drive kept checking the screen for things like where to stop at a stop sign, or to see if the car thought they were too close to the curb. Couldn&#x27;t have that.

               Responses are typical: &quot;That&#x27;s so unsafe!&quot; Imagine the response if they ever learned I routinely ride a motorcycle that doesn&#x27;t even have ABS!

               Then we get to the security aspect. I&#x27;m supposed to trust cameras, connected to the internet, on closed-source hardware, run by a vendor that has a history of misusing the data? No thanks.

               1. [deleted] · 1791072524 · focus · HN ↗

                  [deleted]

               2. Rohansi · 1791135852 · focus · HN ↗

                  &gt; Responses are typical: &quot;That&#x27;s so unsafe!&quot; Imagine the response if they ever learned I routinely ride a motorcycle that doesn&#x27;t even have ABS!

                  I&#x27;ll repeat that. Depending on the model+year of your car you lose out on a lot of safety features, possibly even automatic emergency braking because they had no radar for a while. If you were ever in an accident the fact that the safety features were deliberately disabled may be used against you.

                  It makes more sense just removing the SIM so they can&#x27;t get anything. They even have instructions on how to do that in the manual.

   8. kulahan · 1790893588 · focus · HN ↗

      &gt; Worse, I&#x27;m aware that the absence of data is data itself.

      The Burrow, Franz Kafka

   9. cucumber3732842 · 1790896201 · focus · HN ↗

      &gt; Is my insurance going raise my rates because my vehicle won&#x27;t provide telemetry for them to buy?

      They will do it and some sneering POS in the comments will defend the practice.

      1. sounds · 1791138070 · focus · HN ↗

         It&#x27;s already happening. Nationwide offers a discount if you agree they get to use the data feed that is already wired to them - they specifically name Toyota as the brand that delivers your driving information automatically. On other manufacturers you get the discount if you enable their app while driving (ironic, since cell phone use is strongly tied to worse driving outcomes)
   10. sjducb · 1790949604 · focus · HN ↗

       &gt; Additionally, without pretty extensive work there is no means of physically disabling the telemetry

       My car has a fuse for the antenna module. You can remove this fuse to block all data transfer. Have a look at the fuse box diagrams for the minivans you are interested in.

   11. sounds · 1791137966 · focus · HN ↗

       The connectivity may not be fully disabled in a 2025 Acura Integra, but there is a way to disable data sharing. You then have a permanent yellow &quot;nag icon&quot; top right on your infotainment screen, but the spying is &quot;disabled.&quot;

       I posted this originally in the other discussion: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=49956395">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=49956395

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