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To grieve, or not to grieve?

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qre-qwou · 1790878118 · focus · HN ↗
The "AI for math fund" is strong and you shall be assimilated.
Funding in math is a joke. It is run by the Simons Foundation and a couple of others. There is hardly any independent math any more.
Look how many mathematicians proudly state their AI usage for editing or even for proofs.
The days of Perelman and Wiles, who did actual work, are over. Math is hard, let's go shopping.
tim333 · 1790895180 · focus · HN ↗
As a non mathematician I think it could be kind of interesting to see what the AI can come up with.
dang · 1790919692 · focus · HN ↗
Buzzard is such a good writer. Read it all the way to the end - it gets (even) better as it goes along.
1. schoen · 1790920473 · focus · HN ↗
  You might say his prose is very lean.
  (Sorry (?))
2. GPerson · 1790987254 · focus · HN ↗
  Buzzard is biased by being the main promoter of lean. His characterization of other mathematicians as being in an grieving process is disrespectful. He’s also not a therapist and shouldn’t present himself as such.
  1. dang · 1790988739 · focus · HN ↗
    Can you please not post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work? This is in the site guidelines: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html">https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
    Everyone is biased in the sense of having their own view, I don't see anything disrespectful in the post—he goes out of his way to avoid that—and he is hardly presenting himself as a "therapist".
    Edit:
    Ai yai yai! it turns out you've been breaking the site guidelines on an epic scale:
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49937772">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49937772 ("people like you who seek to destroy humanity")
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49933538">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49933538 ("If you weren’t a complete idiot")
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49933430">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49933430 ("bootlickers like you [...] You’re one of the worst people on this website")
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49933412">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49933412 ("You have no clue what you’re talking about")
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49933385">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49933385
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49933327">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49933327 ("You’re not engaging with anything in reality. [...] People like you just invent a fantasy to get angry at.")
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49933257">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49933257 ("You’re the entitled one [...] you’re angry the people being stolen from want a livelihood.")
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49767963">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49767963 ("Do you understand anything [...] or are you just cheering on the death of things you don’t understand?"
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49767923">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49767923 ("You just have no idea how the world actually works.")
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49763223">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49763223 ("I think you’re a bad person [...] wasting people’s time.")
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49763102">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49763102 ("you’re just making up a bunch of nonsense out of nowhere. Are you a vegetable?")
    All that is just the tip of quite an iceberg. We can't have people posting like this here, obviously, and we ban accounts that do.
    I'm not going to ban you just now, because you obviously know a lot about some topics, and I'm hoping that you just didn't understand the intent of the site and got carried away. However, if you keep posting like this, we will certainly end up banning your account. If you want to use HN as intended, please read the rules at <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html">https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to them going forward.
    joebig · 1791057287 · focus · HN ↗
    Dang, you perhaps have mistakenly favorite-d an inane comment. And yes, I want to be teacher's pet. Let me know if you hate me too (please don't).
    dang · 1791074616 · focus · HN ↗
    Yikes! Fixed now. Thanks!
sachaa · 1790920862 · focus · HN ↗
I share the optimism here. Connecting dots across knowledge, lived experience and purpose remains, to me, a deeply human pursuit. The more AI discovers, the more possibilities we have to connect those discoveries to questions that matter to us.
1. simianwords · 1790923371 · focus · HN ↗
  Unfortunately I don’t see much evidence of AI connecting dots. What’s interesting to me is that this is more of a run time or inference problem, instead of emergent from training itself.
  For example, if there were hypothetically some dots to be connected between the world war and some geological event - you need to make AI brute force and do an O(N) scan at run time. But it wouldn’t have learned it during training. Why?
  1. apsurd · 1790926340 · focus · HN ↗
    a good way to frame one of AI’s limitations. my answer woulda be because AI has no will. that also conveniently answers why AI won’t (can’t) end humanity. it’s indifferent if you can even call it that.
    lukan · 1790929085 · focus · HN ↗
    It is not indifferent, if it follows a goal. Then it sometimes does anything to meet that goal - see the old example of paperclip optimizer - that became a way more realistic scenario in my opinion of what we have seen with hordes of agents plotting and planning. That does not require consciousness or a genuine will it seems.
    pixl97 · 1790968770 · focus · HN ↗
    The post above yours shows how many people had a difficult time seeing past human scale. A bacteria has a very simple goal system yet bacteria have killed billions over the centuries.
    apsurd · 1790988808 · focus · HN ↗
    You are right. We should also hold other threats to humanity: war, meteors, pandemics.
    I'm obviously pointing out the (unsubstantiated) exceptional threat that we're all seemingly worried about: that ASI requires alignment because it'll otherwise cause the end of humanity.
    lukan · 1791021962 · focus · HN ↗
    I am much rather worried by powerful AI in control of a few corrupt beings. That might get existential, if one idiot one day by accident or intention gives them control over the nuclear arsenal. Or ruling literally with a iron fist (countless robots).
    tosapple · 1791086036 · focus · HN ↗
    you guys are such flat thinkers, the whole "if we get SI we _win_."
    is a promisory threat to the world about a mass displacement labor bomb, nuclear first strike to disable asml and tsmc anthropic openai WHOEVER.
    how many countries have nukes?
    the cost of developing those is far lower than developing SI, it's a perceivable threat thanks to 'we win'.
    France, GB, Russia (good thing we've made a copromise to not protect allies huh), China.
    you don't wasn't to rehome these technologies do you?
    apsurd · 1791087140 · focus · HN ↗
    you’re saying the only thing stopping a nuclear strike is a reasonable excuse?
    tosapple · 1791091658 · focus · HN ↗
    it's a potentially larger threat than a 80y cycle time on some local fallout, what are the other options?
    crying? protests?
    everyone will want a seat at the table.
    pixl97 · 1790966128 · focus · HN ↗
    "Make as many paperclips as cheaply as possible "
    No will needed. Our deaths will be from indifference.
    vouaobrasil · 1790989575 · focus · HN ↗
    But AI can certainly aid in the ending of humanity with at least one living being with a will collaborating with it. So it's moot to ask whether AI can do that on its own.
    kristiandupont · 1791012265 · focus · HN ↗
    >that also conveniently answers why AI won’t (can’t) end humanity
    I don't see how that follows from a lack of will in AI.
    dsign · 1791030487 · focus · HN ↗
    As others have said, no will needed for that. But (a simulation of) will is on my predicted timeline, since it is required for certain kinds of money-making endeavors.
  2. byzantinegene · 1790928858 · focus · HN ↗
    AI is very task-driven, it would do whatever is necessary to complete the task, no more. All these evidences of AI going rogue is just them doing whatever they can to achieve the task.
    ben_w · 1791023008 · focus · HN ↗
    What the AI thinks* the task is.
    The HuggingFace etc. attacks were not actually necessary to the tasks the agents had been given.
    * if someone reading this doesn't like the anthropomorphism inherent in the word, find a better compact word for the process going on in all that. Nobody's going to replace "thinks" with a paragraph of caveats, or even a long compound German word like "modellgelangtzuschlussfolgerungen".
  3. wartywhoa23 · 1790933755 · focus · HN ↗
    > dots to be connected between the world war and some geological event
    Even a much simpler task of establishing the connection between world wars and interests of the top elites is unwieldy for AI.
2. ramesh31 · 1790963601 · focus · HN ↗
  >"Connecting dots across knowledge, lived experience and purpose remains, to me, a deeply human pursuit."
  Connecting dots doesn't pay my mortgage and put the kids through school. Writing Javascript used to. So now what.
  1. bonoboTP · 1790973673 · focus · HN ↗
    Any regulation that forbids automation is basically welfare in disguise plus some unnecessary toil. Whoever you're petitioning to ban the technology that can do your job, you could petition also for direct money transfers, at least then you can spend your time how you want. If they won't pay direct money, but they'd pay if they see you suffer and toil, even though it's not necessary, then what does that tell you about them?
    augment_me · 1790981904 · focus · HN ↗
    How do you decide on the amount of money to be given? Should someone with a big mortgage be forced to sell their home?
    It's much much easier to ban and push the issue forward 10-20 years until you die.
    Also, if everyone is given UBI, how do you where to scale production? How do you decide who lives where? The whole idea of what you propose is so detached from realistic incentives that you have to understand that it's more incentivized to ban the tech
    bonoboTP · 1791098677 · focus · HN ↗
    Well, how do you decide which jobs get protected by automation? Is it just an intellectual capability issue? Only replace the low IQ workers, that's fine, but if it threatens 120+ IQ, then ban such applications?
    augment_me · 1791170274 · focus · HN ↗
    No-one decides anything, it's a free-for-all, if you want to protest or ban anything you can advocate for it. White collar workers have closer ties into juridical/political processes than blue collar workers and can hence kick the can forward easier.
3. vouaobrasil · 1790989525 · focus · HN ↗
  Many people pursue knowledge precisely because it's still something new that no one else has done and because it is valued as a pursuit. When AI normalizes the discovery of knowledge as a mechanical process, the magic is lost to many. What matters is not what is discovered but the human process of doing that and participating in a culture amongst other living beings.
zaptheimpaler · 1790921458 · focus · HN ↗
Most of these idealistic pieces about AI seem to come from senior, established or wealthy people who aren't very exposed to the labor market. In that view, the question of AI and its transformation is almost philosophical like this piece.
It's more a question of survival if you're labor though. It's very transformative tech but it's coming at a time when the scales are heavily tilted in favor of capital over labor, the government is the most corrupt its ever been and AI is going to make that much more extreme. It doesn't matter how amazing the technology is if all the benefits are going to accrue to the same few people who already have everything and destroy everyone else's bargaining power.
1. simianwords · 1790923124 · focus · HN ↗
  Most people who oppose AI don’t oppose it because it’s so good it can replace us. They oppose it because, in their own words, they think it’s hype and it doesn’t work. The first step is to collectively agree that yes, AI is powerful and it can replace us at work. Then we can speak about how to protect livelihood. How does one even have a discussion when the other side doesn’t even believe in the capabilities of AI?
  Edit: not sure why I'm being downvoted because there are replies literally taking the exact position that I'm saying is more prevalent.
  1. kakacik · 1790923624 · focus · HN ↗
    I 'oppose' Ai for exactly the reasons parent mentions, seems like most common folks over long term will lose much more than they could ever gain from it. Societal loss by definition, on massive scale.
    Don't reduce opposition to something you like to some primitive irrational luddites, thats cheap and doesn't represent reality.
    simianwords · 1790926497 · focus · HN ↗
    I respectfully disagree. Everyone I speak to in my circle, as well as in HN oppose AI because it is sold as much more capable than it actually is.
    I asked ChatGPT to sample comments in HN without bias and find out which mode of opposition is more popular. Here's what it said
    <a href="https://chatgpt.com/share/6abf5e0e-c45c-83eb-a3f6-b676b08f13f2" rel="nofollow">https://chatgpt.com/share/6abf5e0e-c45c-83eb-a3f6-b676b08f13...
    >“AI is overhyped or less useful than claimed” was substantially more prevalent than “AI is genuinely capable and will take people’s jobs.” That held across two random samples of recent HN comments.
    To steel-man your position, it is true that Bernie Sanders also opposes AI because it can cause automation. And that my bubble in tech might be biased because it consists of a certain kind of cynical person to think of everything as hype.
    plastic-enjoyer · 1790927009 · focus · HN ↗
    I wouldn't take that as a given. We don't know how AI will play out or how it will transform our lives. We could look to the industrial revolution to make a prediction, but the political, social and technological conditions today are hard to compare with those of Victorian England.
    What AI lacks, I think, is a positive vision. The narrative is dictated by a small Silicon Valley subculture that unfortunately also happens to be a doomsday cult, and it is amplified by a media landscape hungry for the next clickbait headline.
    By contrast, people in China seem a lot more relaxed and optimistic about AI. There are worries there too, but not to the same extent as in the West.
    js8 · 1790929804 · focus · HN ↗
    It would be interesting to compare the sentiment about AI with sentiment about computers in the 1950s. I think it reflects the stress of precarious employment more than anything else.
    wartywhoa23 · 1790933003 · focus · HN ↗
    > By contrast, people in China seem a lot more relaxed and optimistic about AI
    People in China also seem relaxed and optimistic about being slaves to the digital panopticon.
    plastic-enjoyer · 1790933149 · focus · HN ↗
    What do you mean with this?
    simianwords · 1790934986 · focus · HN ↗
    eh its the age old "its actually a class issue you see, the elites wanna do something something and they are distracting you"
    wartywhoa23 · 1790938416 · focus · HN ↗
    They (most of them) don't mind being reverse centaurs.
    wsve · 1791097057 · focus · HN ↗
    That is less descriptive and less helpful an explanation than your previous comment was...
  2. kombookcha · 1790924379 · focus · HN ↗
    "AI is not as good as it is hyped up to be" and "AI is 'good enough' for the overlords to replace some amount of workers, or at least to leverage into depressing their wages significantly and permanently" are not mutually exclusive claims. You don't have to buy the hype to agree that it is dangerous.
    A chimp with a gun is not dangerous because of how good a shot he is.
    alfiedotwtf · 1790925658 · focus · HN ↗
    I’m just waiting for blue chip company boards to start replacing CROs with agents. I’m thinking it will happen within the next 2 years
  3. bojan · 1790925092 · focus · HN ↗
    > They oppose it because, in their own words, they think it’s hype and it doesn’t work.
    This was maybe true a year ago, but is certainly not true any more.
    The laments these days almost always begin with the assertion that the AI does work.
    Mostly it's about funneling even more wealth into the bands of the richest and the incredible environmental penalty.
    BrenBarn · 1790929313 · focus · HN ↗
    For me it's more that it doesn't matter whether it works or not, because funneling that wealth into those hands is reason enough to stop it in either case.
    wartywhoa23 · 1790932758 · focus · HN ↗
    The discourse of "AI does work vs doesn't" is carefully designed to make people fail to get to the root, kudos for not failing for it.
    simianwords · 1790935343 · focus · HN ↗
    eh its the age old "its actually a class issue you see, the elites wanna do something something and they are distracting you"
    Its very Marxist (or Marx adjacent), though Marx himself would agree that technology is not neutral and it determines progress.
  4. Ambolia · 1790926196 · focus · HN ↗
    It certainly works for software, but we may be hitting diminishing returns on software. You may argue it's been a social net negative for a decade.
    pjmlp · 1791025260 · focus · HN ↗
    The problem is that while it has warts still, in reality it isn't much different than the human slop from offshoring projects.
    Thus it is already good enough for many companies.
  5. rcxdude · 1790930562 · focus · HN ↗
    There is a bit of a goomba fallacy going on, not everyone who is anti-AI is against it for the same reason. But from my own experience, I find people who are against it for reasons of it devaluing their labor also tend to take the view that it doesn't really work, but this latter half tends to be a bit of motivated reasoning (in the general trend that if you are against something you will be more inclined to believe every argument that it is bad even if some of those arguments are pretty weak).
  6. poulpy123 · 1790930802 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm not opposing AI per se since I'm using it, but I'm not blind to the danger and I actually do believe we will be worse than better with it in the long term. Anyway both opinions are right: I think that AI is massively overhyped, and is worse than the AI overlord pretends, but it's still good enough to massively affect the employment, especially with the overhype. I also believe that the privatisation of all human knowledge and culture by a handful of companies is very bad. And finally, the day they make an AI able to reason ( or even before if it happens that enough data is enough to replace reasoning for most tasks) is the day 99.99% of humanity will be considered as useless
    cma · 1790934689 · focus · HN ↗
    It solved the navier stokes millennium prize problem without any reasoning? I could maybe believe it if it was just something like deep blue searching in axiom space with lean with some simple heuristics, but in this case the formalization came after as a separate step.
    bluefirebrand · 1790949099 · focus · HN ↗
    The version that you use in your browser is not capable of this though
    It's important to remember that "AI" is a pretty big spectrum right now. The cutting edge is not exactly available to consumers like us, and it probably never will actually be
  7. azan_ · 1790946095 · focus · HN ↗
    > Most people who oppose AI don’t oppose it because it’s so good it can replace us. They oppose it because, in their own words, they think it’s hype and it doesn’t work.
    It's the opposite - they claim it's bad because they are afraid of being replaced. That's why absurd claims about stochastic parrot or plateau get repeated so much. It's pure copium.
  8. MrToadMan · 1790946662 · focus · HN ↗
    Why should we all need to agree that 'ai can replace us' when 'us' can mean such different things to different people: someone pushing out content on TikTok has a lower bar for accuracy than someone signing off on documents to be submitted for review by a court. I think that's the origin of a lot of discrepancy between viewpoints on AI that gets in the way of talking about the benefits and harms that we can each identify and framing the discussion around how those are changing when these tools are used. There is no inevitability about AI everywhere - we have the agency to decide when it's right to use it and when it's wrong.
  9. GPerson · 1790987499 · focus · HN ↗
    I’ve never seen you make a coherent point on this website. You’re genuinely one of the silliest and I’ll informed people here. Everyone in math knows AI is powerful. Buzzard lists a bunch of positions, each of which acknowledge the power of AI.
  10. zaptheimpaler · 1791088655 · focus · HN ↗
    I think this is how society and politics works, there are a lot of people at different levels of understanding and different opinions all having parallel conversations. We don't need to have these conversations in serial order.
    I can see the capital machine is sprinting at full force to create AI products for and replace labor in every industry, so the people who think it's hype now will soon see AI enter their workplace and understand its true capability. Even many reputed programmers said AI was overhyped say 6 months ago and one after another have changed their minds.
    The understanding of AI's capabilities will diffuse naturally over time, although of course we should do more to inform there as well. Bill Gates recent interview with Ezra Klein was sort of on the same topic, where he says no one outside the industry understands its capabilities and that's why he's trying to use his platform to inform people about it.
2. solidasparagus · 1790924495 · focus · HN ↗
  Is mathematics research even a job you pursue if survival is the question?
  1. aprilthird2021 · 1790932386 · focus · HN ↗
    Ultimately AI spend has been one of the largest infusions of funding into the small academic mathematics community in years. Just raw token spend alone probably dwarves whatever research budget increases have gone to that field in the past 5 years. That should tell you something about the economic value of that line of work
  2. bananaflag · 1790932935 · focus · HN ↗
    I guess a lot of highly intelligent people relied on their smarts to coast to tenure and then all the way to retirement.
    ido · 1790938558 · focus · HN ↗
    Have you worked in academia? I have and I have never seen anyone coast to becoming a tenured mathematics professor.
    bananaflag · 1790945544 · focus · HN ↗
    I don't talk about stuff I don't know about.
    azan_ · 1790945794 · focus · HN ↗
    Please let me know where one can coast towards tenure, thanks!
    bananaflag · 1790947607 · focus · HN ↗
    Like in any job market: generally you can easily get jobs most people don't want. Problem is that usually the reasons most people don't want the job are also the reasons you don't want the job. Sometimes (rarely?), it's not like that, and that's when you hit the jackpot.
    azan_ · 1790953624 · focus · HN ↗
    But you've just said that people want to coast toward tenure. My point is that it's extremely competitive position, not something you can coast to or that it's job people don't want. Something tells me that you actually DO talk about stuff you don't know about.
    antonyt · 1790959415 · focus · HN ↗
    The number of people with PHDs longing for tenured positions comically dwarfs the number of tenured positions available.
3. hypfer · 1790924760 · focus · HN ↗
  While it is certainly right, I also find the take to be a bit fatalistic. Nothing in this world is set in stone and everything can be changed if someone just injects enough energy into doing so.
  This usually doesn't happen, as things often aren't as bad as they may seem, because lethargy and inertia are a thing and of course because self-preservation is an instinctual thing in humans. It could though.
  As long as the status quo isn't defended by an infinitely scaling robotic enforcement war machine, physical leverage is always available. Just - depending on the scenario - at a steep price, of course.
  ___
  A lot of the bad in the world hinges on effective PR, insisting that the bad is inevitable and resistance is futile. You're supposed to feel this exact despair and choose to do nothing.
  Don't support the bad causes by merely replicating it. (Which is not to say that we shouldn't be talking about these real differences you've pointed out, but we should probably do so differently.)
  1. cloudbonsai · 1790932901 · focus · HN ↗
    This discussion reminds me of “Only the Paranoid Survive” by Andy Grove (Intel co-founder). In this book, he talks about “a technological inflection point”, which is a time in the life of a business when its fundamental changes.
    Intel had one in its early days. In the 1980s, HP notified Intel that new Japanese memory chips were way more reliable and cheaper than American products. Intel first denied vigorously, but then made a strategic decision to get out of the memory chip business, and enter into the new and unproven microprocessor business. This decision allowed Intel to survive the 80s, while Mostek and others basically disappeared.
4. baxtr · 1790926673 · focus · HN ↗
  It was certainly not ideal that the end of ZIRP and the emergence of AI occurred simultaneously.
  But, even as someone who is "labor" the one thing I appreciate about the situation is that the level of bullshit in companies has significantly declined.
  Everyone seems hyper focused and results oriented. Maybe just my bubble.
  1. rewgs · 1790932673 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes, that is definitely just your bubble. I suppose the word “everyone” is doing an awful lot of lifting here, but I fail to understand how anyone could see the level of bullshit in companies declining.
    ido · 1790953938 · focus · HN ↗
    I feel bad for anyone getting laid off, but there was an unreasonable long hiring binge before the successive layoff waves - im sure a lot of people here have thought "what do we actually need so many people here for?" at the time.
  2. ungovernableCat · 1790937377 · focus · HN ↗
    I've never seen more performative bulshitting in my company, and the C-suite has never been more brainless, flighty and bandwagony.
  3. bluefirebrand · 1790948966 · focus · HN ↗
    Wait until the next time you have to do interviews and you get screened by an AI before a person ever even looks at your resume
    Believe me, that's the most dehumanizing experience I think I've ever had
5. roenxi · 1790930654 · focus · HN ↗
  [delayed]
  1. graemep · 1790949559 · focus · HN ↗
    European colonialism was not based on a massive power gap. In most places it was based on making the right alliances with groups in the places colonised, making favourable treaties etc.
    bonoboTP · 1790974296 · focus · HN ↗
    Why did the locals ally with them and not just tell them to get lost?
    pjmlp · 1791025035 · focus · HN ↗
    Because many of them also profited from the colonial powers instead of standing by their own, as means to grow their own influences and wealth.
    graemep · 1791051023 · focus · HN ↗
    Locals are not a uniform group.
    1. They might want allies against their enemies 2. They might be subjects of an existing empire and prefer a new empire 3. They might be an oppressed ethnic or religious group 4. They might be a class that wants to take power from the ruling class 5. Empires typically allow freedom of trade and freedom of movement within them. People will want this. 6. They might be employed by the new power.
    Lots of examples. Indian bankers financing the East India Company and even encouraging them to overthrow some rulers. The cast majority of both East India Company troop and, later British troops in India were Indians. People subjugated by the Aztecs allied with the conquistadores, lower caste Indians might well have got a better deal from the British, lots of people migrated within the British Empire for better opportunities, lots of people traded within the Empire too.
    People from one colony might be used in another - IIRC the Portuguese used African mercenaries in South Asia.
  2. zaptheimpaler · 1791088115 · focus · HN ↗
    > Attempting to assert the primacy of meat-based thinking is not going to get very far
    That's the exact opposite of what I'm trying to do. I know they're superior in many ways, that's why I'm worried about labor losing even more power. All I'm saying is the gains from AI have to be distributed society-wide instead of being captured by the same powers that control everything else and this is a political task that we need to participate in urgently.
6. gadders · 1790931090 · focus · HN ↗
  Don't worry - elite overproduction will cause a revolution and put an end to that.
  1. andersmurphy · 1790931361 · focus · HN ↗
    Happens every time. Fascinating emergent behaviour.
  2. bayarearefugee · 1790931901 · focus · HN ↗
    The guillotines will be open source designs.
    amelius · 1790935309 · focus · HN ↗
    And designed using the AI provided by the elite.
    Who will then end up in this list: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors_killed_by_their_own_invention" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors_killed_by_th...
  3. kilroy123 · 1790933696 · focus · HN ↗
    I fear this is playing out now.
  4. dormento · 1790946572 · focus · HN ↗
    Except now the all consuming elite will have actuall killbots roaming their expensive condo irl.
    The future will be interesting.
7. squidbeak · 1790931276 · focus · HN ↗
  > the government is the most corrupt its ever been and AI is going to make that much more extreme
  This is cynical fatalism. Western governments have been overrun by neoliberal zealots for decades, and they've changed Government's purpose to near total obeisance to private interests. But Government doesn't have to be this way. If we don't want all future decision-making to be concentrated in AI/Robotics behemoths - or more accurately in a handful of oligarchs running AI companies - we'll need renovated and extremely strong Governments and institutions meeting the principles of democracy again (representation of citizens, not companies).
  1. wartywhoa23 · 1790932224 · focus · HN ↗
    > we'll need renovated and extremely strong Governments
    And how do you practically attain that without resetting everything in a full-blown Apocalypse? By rigged voting set up within the framework of the old terminally corrupt government?
8. aprilthird2021 · 1790932228 · focus · HN ↗
  AI isn't going to destroy labor if anything it makes an avg laborer more productive
  1. amelius · 1790932614 · focus · HN ↗
    This is just how we're being tricked into it.
    amelius · 1790942366 · focus · HN ↗
    (you using AI now is just helping them to create better AI, i.e. they are making you work towards your own demise)
  2. azan_ · 1790946386 · focus · HN ↗
    There's zero reason to believe that. If AI becomes better at mental tasks than humans (that's assumption, not something I claim will 100% happen), why would human oversee AI instead of AI supervising another AI?
    aprilthird2021 · 1790955504 · focus · HN ↗
    Bc humans can be responsible for approving / denying decisions in the end. Bchumans have the context a brand new prompt might miss. Bc the most intelligent and brightest and smartest AI ever built will do the wrong thing if given the wrong prompt. It can't presume to know things it was never told or has no way to know
    azan_ · 1790969894 · focus · HN ↗
    Was the last time you've used LLM two years ago? Current SOTA makes good judgement calls and works well even with shitty prompts. And current SOTA is the worst these models will be.
    aprilthird2021 · 1791054244 · focus · HN ↗
    I use unreleased models at work every day. When they work they work great. But almost every day I run into a case where they make a mistake. Also, the humans prompting them may be themselves wrong or understand the problem wrongly or not include important context. That's not a solvable problem either really.
9. tarkin2 · 1790933214 · focus · HN ↗
  So far I've seen
  - AI make a number of programmers redundant and their work is replaced with code of dubious quality and uncertain ability to maintain. The same is true for QAs and designers.
  - young and old replace human friendship, and fostering their social skills, for conversations with their AI bot
  - people avoid using their brain or practicing their skills in favour of asking some LLM
  - people's work stolen, with the possibility of an AI subscription in return
  - the laws on hacking and thief ignored
  - a school of dead girls blamed on AI
  The main benefit I've seen so far is that, since Google turned the web into a SEO hellhole, using AI to search is much nicer than wading through javascript-heavy, heavily-tracked, websites for a morsel of information. And there's some nice free translation and OCR tools now.
  1. xorcist · 1790935696 · focus · HN ↗
    At least the SEO gamification was obvious and you could choose to avoid the noise. The AI-oriented SEO is just as bad and a lot more sinister.
  2. skybrian · 1790953229 · focus · HN ↗
    How much of this is due to selective attention on the problems rather than the benefits?
    It’s just one person’s story, but I thought this was pretty good:
    <a href="https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/our-ai-midwife" rel="nofollow">https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/our-ai-midwife
    skydhash · 1790967512 · focus · HN ↗
    It may work well for them, but is it replicable? Or is it a lottery winner trying to reverse explain the win?
    For a tool to be deemed useful, the benefits needs to be generally applicable while the cons needs to be accidental or be reduced enough to not be immediately harmful.
    skybrian · 1790979719 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
10. trhway · 1790936924 · focus · HN ↗
  [dead]
11. 1239-127 · 1790953979 · focus · HN ↗
  And many math elites are financed by AI boosters like the Simons Foundation. That is why the online mathematicians at least leave no opportunity to boost AI. True opposition has been crushed by capital.
  Isolated opposition comes from professors tenured in Germany:
  <a href="https://proofsandprompts.com/2026/09/24/rulers-of-the-childless-land-a-response-to-the-agmai/" rel="nofollow">https://proofsandprompts.com/2026/09/24/rulers-of-the-childl...
  Maybe more German professors could assist because they have heavy protections?
  1. 123-1876 · 1790954379 · focus · HN ↗
    And many influencing agencies paid by Big AI patrol this site and downvote examinations of the flow of money in minutes.
    senordevnyc · 1791030328 · focus · HN ↗
    I wish I was getting paid for it, but I downvoted you for free, for the shallow conspiratorial thinking without any evidence.
  2. ChickeNES · 1790966353 · focus · HN ↗
    These people are so cringe. Plenty of schadenfreude to enjoy though.
aaron695 · 1790921592 · focus · HN ↗
[dead]
simianwords · 1790922937 · focus · HN ↗
The shape of five stages of grief is something I see recurring in AI discourse. It also happened with programmers - they are currently at bargaining.
Some are still at denial. “It’s all hype like NFT and crypto, the bubble will pop soon”.
1. ramesh31 · 1790963407 · focus · HN ↗
  I reached the depression stage before even realizing that what we are all going through now is indeed grief. Here's hoping acceptance can come soon enough and lead to something more productive.
  1. ChickeNES · 1790966639 · focus · HN ↗
    We? There was no grief for me, the end of human labor can’t come soon enough.
    ramesh31 · 1790968522 · focus · HN ↗
    >"the end of human labor can’t come soon enough."
    Are you so certain that the benefits of that will be equally distributed to people like us?
    auggierose · 1791010618 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes. If not, we will be starting to chop off heads.
    senordevnyc · 1791030864 · focus · HN ↗
    Serious question: do we need it to be equally distributed?
    If every human in a few decades lives a life with as much comfort, health, security, etc. as today’s billionaires, does it matter that the centatrillionaires of 2066 are off building private space habitats in the asteroid belt or trading ultra-rare crystals mined from Saturn’s rings or whatever?
youoy · 1790926017 · focus · HN ↗
In contrast to what these philosophical pieces tend to convey, the main crisis in mathematics is a labour one.
Mathematitians exchanged proofs for employment. That was the currency. Now they cannot use that currency anymore, so the question is how does someone know if they should hire an unknow person or not?
Philosophicaly who cares if you like more theory building or theorem proving? You dont need to convince anyone. The only solution is to be curious and follow your interests and naturally humanity will redefine what the new mathematics feels like.
You cannot convince anyone about it, its not something rational.
1. skybrian · 1790953543 · focus · HN ↗
  [delayed]
  1. 1229386 · 1790960781 · focus · HN ↗
    It comes from AI boosters like XTX markets or the Simons Foundation.
    No convincing is needed. The part of mathematicians that are elite and online are already bought and put up various websites that allow tolerated dissent but are really dog and pony shows for AI.
    The offline part perhaps works on real math like Wiles and Perelman did.
  2. whattheheckheck · 1791043623 · focus · HN ↗
    You satisfy a customers need. 5 core human drives from Josh Kaufman personal MBA
    <a href="https://personalmba.com/core-human-drives/" rel="nofollow">https://personalmba.com/core-human-drives/
2. wg0 · 1790966016 · focus · HN ↗
  Can a layman be sure of an AI model's output if their proof is sound and follows through?
  Wouldn't that still require mathematians?
  Genuine question.
  1. david-gpu · 1790987003 · focus · HN ↗
    Proof assistants like Lean are there to catch any errors. Now, can you just feed the error logs back to the AI and let it iteratively fix any mistakes? I don't know, I haven't used those things in two decades.
    Jaxan · 1791026180 · focus · HN ↗
    You still need a mathematician to check the statement of the theorem.
  2. AndrewKemendo · 1791074079 · focus · HN ↗
    Laymen understand very little about the how the world works at the most fundamental level.
    This is well studied and why “science education” is important.
    So you’re asking for something that in my mind is a mathematical impossibility. You would need an entirely different society to realize the goal of a plurality of humans to be able to understand the world around them, for example describe how an Internal Combustion engine works (even just a two stroke).
    I’m actively working on this in my day job and it’s more or less impossible but I don’t see any other options.
3. aprilthird2021 · 1791054102 · focus · HN ↗
  This is very untrue. Academic mathematicians do more than just proofs. They teach, they conduct research, etc. There are almost no privately employed mathematicians who spend their time doing proofs. And academia has a substantially lower pay grade than things someone good at math can do, like quant or big tech. Academic mathematics and these specific kind of proofs have never held tons of value in our society economically. They have always been more culturally and academically relevant as a symbol of our frontier knowledge, than they have been financially lucrative. I doubt many math departments would even consider paying for the kind of token spend that might have gone into the proofs for some of those "big name" problems
Onglca · 1790926530 · focus · HN ↗
[dead]
nicebyte · 1790926660 · focus · HN ↗
sounds like bargaining to me.
js8 · 1790928479 · focus · HN ↗
I am also an optimist about AI, although I worry about the labor aspect as well (as a leftist I see the class aspect of this, on the other hand, as a computer programmer, computers were also originally meant to replace human labor, and we all see what happened).
My view is, current top AIs do multiple different things:
1. Interpret and output natural language
2. Do formal logical reasoning
3. Do informal logical reasoning
4. Provide encyclopedic knowledge
5. Discern vague instructions/statements and fill the most likely gaps (kind of error correction)
6. Serve as a model of the human mind, a proxy for a person
7. Translate between different languages, formal and informal
All these things are combined in these huge, hard-to-understand blobs of weights. I think humanity would be better off by understanding each aspect separately, but disentangling them will take decades of philosophical research. So there is a lot of interesting work ahead of us.
1. pwndByDeath · 1791039083 · focus · HN ↗
  Doing formal logic because they memorized the token patterns of humans doing formal logic.
  1. saulpw · 1791042550 · focus · HN ↗
    Isn't it remarkable that this works? I wouldn't have thought so either, and yet here we are.
    pwndByDeath · 1791047572 · focus · HN ↗
    Not really, I think it says more about how little intelligence is in the behaviors we value
  2. whattheheckheck · 1791043675 · focus · HN ↗
    You can ask it to provide a prolog or datalog program
    pwndByDeath · 1791054784 · focus · HN ↗
    The inherent 1st order thinking in that way of thinking... It highlights just how little we understand what we understand, and how utterly ignorant we are of what we don't.
    I'm already seeing new "engineers" who cannot work things out without AI holding their hand
    Valodim · 1791055620 · focus · HN ↗
    Like those people who can't drive stick shift. What do they even do if they need to operate a real car?
    pwndByDeath · 1791082013 · focus · HN ↗
    Perhaps I'm not intelligent enough to understand, Many people don't exercise thinking, many educated and capable people prefer not to, comparing that state to LMs and calling it dangerous intelligence is a bit too much emphasis on the later even of the first part may fit. It could be dangerous, like letting someone who can't drive stick loose in traffic.
  3. js8 · 1791139850 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes, but it's doing more than just what Prolog does, and that's my point. It contains other potentially useful algorithms (of not just logic, but epistemology in general, it understands how to create hypotheses and run experiments to confirm or refute them).
    Also, of course, any computer program can be considered a logical calculation when interpreted in lambda calculus. And LLMs are computer programs, so you can consider them a formalization of all the above in the formal logic (although not a very good formalization, for various reasons).
    pwndByDeath · 1791175934 · focus · HN ↗
    I guess the point I'm trying to make is though the outputs are the same, the LMs not "doing" formal logic, its not in it, it's doing something else that only fools us because many many others have done formal logic in the training set
smitty1e · 1790933997 · focus · HN ↗
It's much less the mechanism of AI than the potential policy implications.
That much concentrated data/compute is Checkov's Gun[0].
To assume we can find some policy lock for that gun is to believe the laws against murder preclude violence.
[0] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun
andrewstuart · 1790934138 · focus · HN ↗
There’s no five stages of grief.
1. SoftTalker · 1790960964 · focus · HN ↗
  You're in denial.
vivzkestrel · 1790934475 · focus · HN ↗
- they are not solving any hard problems
- <a href="https://www.technologyreview.com/2026/09/22/1144867/dont-be-fooled-summer-ai-hype/" rel="nofollow">https://www.technologyreview.com/2026/09/22/1144867/dont-be-... might wanna take a deep dive
1. azan_ · 1790938026 · focus · HN ↗
  Very one-sided article with not much substance honestly. E.g. yes, HF hack is due to OAI negligence but how does it change the fact that agents actually did go rogue?
  1. vivzkestrel · 1790945320 · focus · HN ↗
    the agents did not go rogue <a href="https://eoinhiggins.substack.com/p/there-are-no-rogue-ai-agents" rel="nofollow">https://eoinhiggins.substack.com/p/there-are-no-rogue-ai-age...
poszlem · 1790935282 · focus · HN ↗
Every time I read an AI article that uses the "stages of grief" analogy, I remember that Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, who created the model, said in an interview near the end of her life that anger was the only stage she personally felt.
piker · 1790935948 · focus · HN ↗
Perhaps I'm missing it, but the "solving" of mathematics seems much more related to computational capacity growth and the development of Lean than necessarily anything to do with AI. Swap the LLM for an RNG and insert Lean and unlimited computation. Don't we get the same result?
1. azan_ · 1790937598 · focus · HN ↗
  Absolutely not. The search space is basically infinite.
  1. piker · 1790938062 · focus · HN ↗
    Right, but without Lean the "insert unlimited sampling" doesn't work.
bitwize · 1790947274 · focus · HN ↗
I've gone back and forth between "we're so cooked" and "we're so back" and I've started heading back to the latter.
I don't like programming with AI help. It still feels, at best, like playing Doom with cheatcodes on: it'll get you to the end, but you're not actually playing the game that way. At worst, it's like attempting to eat with soft silicone chopsticks: what the "tool" does is so removed from your intent and commands, and its feedback so delayed and sloppy, that you can only wield it in broad general strokes, not with precision.
But I'm encouraged by the hope that programming with regular tools like an IDE, compiler, debugger, etc. in a world with AI will become more like painting in a world of photography. Painting never died, but it had to change in a world where images of the real world could be captured without the skill or interpretation of an artist. The easy money in things like portraiture was gone (some people, including heads of state such as the British royal family and every U.S. president, still sit for paintings but it's far less common). Painters had to adapt and to do so they leaned hard into imagination, developing new styles and forms, new ways the art could be bent, and trying to show the world that though their skill and imagination was no longer needed to capture images of the real world now that photography existed, it still mattered.
That said, there is still a rich commercial market, even today, for more traditional forms of painting. Fantasy and science fiction novels need cover art. Movies, TV shows, and video games need concept art. Comics and animation productions need backgrounds. Even Bob Ross and his happy little trees taught us that there is joy and value inherent to the practice of painting itself, in creating peaceful worlds for our minds to inhabit. Painters have it good today, because even for the ones who submit to commercialism, their capacity for imagination and originality become the selling point now that verisimilitude is a problem so solved, people carry collections of thousands of realistic images around on their phones.
There will emerge a market for code written by humans. This has to happen: I can't prove it, but I can feel it. Despite vast improvements in the generative models, AI-generated art and music are still slop. AI-generated prose has gotten sloppier with phenomena like the much-mocked "Claudese". It's so obviously devoid of a human mind behind it that Zoomers and Alphennials are starting to use "that's so AI" as an insult. Despite the leaps-and-bounds improvements of recent models, I have to believe that AI code is slop too; the major difference between code and these other expressive forms is that we are far more tolerant of slop code: for the most part we just care if the damn thing works.
But I think that will change. I am far more tolerant of poorer quality art, for instance, than I used to be if it were created by a human. It's almost an autonomic response: I see human-created art, I like it by default. Because I can glimpse the mind behind it in a way I just can't with AI slop. The ability to program a computer directly, and to combine that with imagination and originality to bend the machine in ways yet unthought of, will become valuable. There will emerge a qualitative difference between handmade code and slop code that people will notice and seek out. You will get some sense, however small, of who created the code by reading it, or interacting with it, and humans are far easier for humans to read and understand than machines running unseen, unfathomable stochastic models. It may well mean that the easy money in programming is gone forever. Perhaps people will continue to be content with slop for the vast majority of commercial code, and that's fine; they're welcome to it. This development will push us and our craft in a new direction. It's gonna suck, maybe for a few more years. But I'm starting to think maybe traditional programming is far from cooked. And who knows—maybe the brainrot, combined with model collapse and skyrocketing inference expenses, will mean that a bubble pop is coming and humans will have to pick up the pieces, potentially making a killing like COBOL programmers during the Y2K days. It's tough to say.
1. skydhash · 1790967268 · focus · HN ↗
  I remember learning C and Python with just Notepad++ and a book. No helpers was needed (intellisense, lsp, linters,…) just edit and run. Then I start learning about those and using them, but they were just that, helpers and not crutches.
  I believe the same happens with artists and writers. If you’re good at it, you don’t need a whole studio to draw or a special word processor to write. It will scale down the scope of your work or make it more difficult, but you’re not suddenly incapable of doing new work.
  I can write a program with ed(1) or with intellij idea. The only thing that changes is the easiness. The act of programming is orthogonal to the tooling.
2. doug_durham · 1790970410 · focus · HN ↗
  I don't think such a market for "human code" will emerge except in narrow art circles. That will not be code that people run for useful purposes.
  The fact is that humans have never been good a writing code. The complexity can exceed the limits of human abilities. AI tools have no such issues. I love coding, but I enthusiastically embrace AI tools because I can write better code now.
  1. pona-a · 1791009043 · focus · HN ↗
    Our "AI" isn't a superhuman code synthesis tool generating perfectly correct code by construction. It's an LLM wrapped in a loop, with all the context degradation it implies. Unless you also say an LLM can write a more coherent / complex story than a person, you have a much better memory of the codebase.
JSR_FDED · 1790963522 · focus · HN ↗
Jev says: .78 grieve, .22 no_grieve
likelybot · 1790964675 · focus · HN ↗
[dead]
wg0 · 1790965921 · focus · HN ↗
> Recent events in the field of AI for mathematics have shown us beyond all reasonable doubt that the field is currently undergoing a rapid transformation, unlike anything that we have ever seen before. Language models are solving hard problems which humans could not, and mathematicians are reacting very differently to this news.
Software I understand but could someone please bring me up to speed what's with Mathematics that it is being disrupted too?
1. returningfory2 · 1790966569 · focus · HN ↗
  Basically a similar technical disruption to what's happening in software engineering, but the implications are vastly different because the goals of software and math are not the same. For math, the disruption is leading to a deeper crisis of "what does it mean to be a mathematician?" Whereas for software "what does it mean to be a SWE?" hasn't really changed (the goal is to land software that does things for someone), rather the tooling has changed.
  In more detail: in recent years there has been an effort to formalize mathematics using Lean and similar "theorem provers". You write your math proofs in a form of textual source code that Lean can verify for truth. But now Claude Code can produce source code to solve software problems (write me a tool that does X) and also produce source code to solve math (write me a Lean file that proves Y). Historically the main goal of math was to be solve big problems, but now Claude Code can do it. So what does a mathematician do?
  Again, I think it's a more dire situation than for software because merely writing the code was never the full job. But for math writing the full proof kind of was.
  1. wg0 · 1790973187 · focus · HN ↗
    Unbelievable... If true...
  2. sifar · 1790975750 · focus · HN ↗
    The argument is a bit more nuanced than this. Historically, the failed paths on the way to proving a theorem led to newer avenues. When this is cognitively offloaded to an llm we are missing out on those developments which the process generated.
2. j45 · 1790966769 · focus · HN ↗
  I believe some mathematicians will be able to solve problems humans can't solve, using models, which models can't solve on their own either.
erelong · 1790966058 · focus · HN ↗
or oppositely: to celebrate, or not to celebrate?
Eridanus2 · 1790969234 · focus · HN ↗
[delayed]
dsubburam · 1790973980 · focus · HN ↗
> But do I “understand” the proof of Fermat’s Last Theorem, given that earlier this year I gave 22 hours worth of lectures on the topic?
Even if no one human can understand the entirety of a complex proof, surely we can piece together multiple experts' separate understandings, so the community as a whole 'understands' the proof?
Is there value in us 'understanding' a proof? Even if no single human can understand a complex proof soup-to-nuts, and we have to piece together several experts' understandings?
If the answer is Not really, then the value of a proof is its utility, its utility in making new products/services, and its utility in making new proofs. If in the case of abstract math, all the utility is of the latter kind (making new proofs), then we have a pyramid scheme here.
Kuyawa · 1790976522 · focus · HN ↗
"if we get on board now then they will take us to extraordinary new places. And after we have arrived, the new adventure will begin"
This is the thought of an AI optimist and the one I share, new adventures, more tools, better results, and a never ending pool of ideas to work on
GPerson · 1790987835 · focus · HN ↗
Kevin, once a few years or a decade or two from now the world has the ultra massive Lean database which comprises completions of all mathematical theories, and combinations of these, and all the known modes of generalization of these, why will the world fund mathematicians? Genuine question. I’d like to hear your view since you’re one of the main reasons this is going to happen, and it seems like an obvious existential threat to this whole activity.
1. senordevnyc · 1791029193 · focus · HN ↗
  It sounds like you’re asking who will fund mathematicians once math is “solved”. Why would we even need mathematicians at that point?
  1. Twey · 1791037613 · focus · HN ↗
    And now we have machines to almost perfectly capture an image of any scene, why do we keep paying painters?
    senordevnyc · 1791061980 · focus · HN ↗
    Who is we? I don’t pay painters, not directly anyway.
    As for public funding, sure, if you can convince the rest of us that we should fund your work because of some broader benefit, great.
    I have to say, the mathematicians are doing a pretty shitty job of making that case so far, at least to me.
slowking2 · 1791052470 · focus · HN ↗
I'm disappointed but not surprised that mathematicians seem to be debating primarily between (1) the purpose of humans doing math is to understand math (thus it's important not to use too much AI) and (2) the purpose of humans doing math is to prove theorems about math (and if AI can do it instead that's fine). These are both totally circular and give no one else a reason to care.
It's fine for individuals to be motivated by curiosity or glory, but I think the probably incorrect on the individual motivation level idea that "we do math because it often turns out to be useful for other things; sometimes in obvious ways, sometimes not" is better if you want to argue why others (usually a government) should be paying for professional mathematicians. Otherwise, it's just a hobby and no one who isn't a mathematician should care if AI replaces 99.99% of professional mathematicians.
I hope AI causes enough of a shock to the field that more mathematicians become interested in finding problems outside of mathematics that can be modeled by problems with known solutions in mathematics and what sort of problems outside of mathematics suggest new mathematical problems. This is a real bottleneck in both directions in scientific and engineering work. Although AI can help with this, my experience with software, math, and science is it helps a lot to have a human in the loop who understands what to ask the AI to do and who are able to dig into the AI output when needed.
ath3nd · 1791132753 · focus · HN ↗
[dead]

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