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Ask HN: Hypothesis: Cellular providers are deprioritizing voice calls?

21 points · 46 comments · tkdb

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sinabis · 1790268470 · focus · HN ↗
I totally agree. Driving on the autobahn and calling someone gets worse and worse. They are decreasing the number of people having a call at once. The Quality with Signal/WhatsApp Audio seems better than cellular.
1. tkdb · 1790273147 · focus · HN ↗
  I forgot to mention: whatsapp, facetime voice calls, etc... all seem to work fine even when the cellular calls aren't going through. So yes, that matches my experience.
  1. anenefan · 1790293124 · focus · HN ↗
    Australia, regional in Queensland state.
    I've noted similar in the three main networks, where I've suspected the load balancing algorithm for traffic adjusts a setting in regard to cut off on signal strength hasn't been quite set right. Obviously at times dealing with extraordinary use at the time, one expects balancing. One network in my locale a few years ago, it was quite clear it was either over subscribed, techs made a mistake adjusting the algorithms ... or just too many people trying to use that particular one tower, and three people in the same spot could often note the three different states the network could be in, none, unavailable, signal - this existed for many months. The balancing has been tuned up a few times since then. I have found when the network's coverage was spotty for voice calls, one could generally use data to get online albeit as slow rates.
    Recently the main network I'm using (Optus,) I've noted missed calls that went to voice mail, I have not heard the call at all. I have been blaming signal though I don't have it on me (sits outside the window up high) to ensure the phone has good signal. However on data over wifi, the network often drops out for a minute or more at times.
    tkdb · 1790337437 · focus · HN ↗
    Interesting. Another detail I should add: in virtually all of the cases where I have the silent missed calls, I have full or adequate service, and can otherwise use my phone. Internet browsing, apps, and as mentioned even wifi calling via whatsapp etc.. works fine.
    Even so, in a scenario where I have missed a call due to spotty service, the expected behavior once I have service again is I see the missed call on my device. That's the aggravating part of this issue: I never know someone tried to call me.
    anenefan · 1790343682 · focus · HN ↗
    Yeah phone working, sit by it, and realise when checking the phone, for reasons unknown there's a recent missed call - that is the worst, especially if it's important and you've been waiting on a reply for a few days for them to have the time to call back. Often I wonder if the person only rang for a second or less, not long enough for the network to ring the phone but at times I get a voice mail ... so maybe not.
    BTW, I don't so much mean a spotty network, just spotty voice calls over the network, where it seems there's not enough signal to carry the voice - apparently - but yet still capable for data over a hotspot delivering 100 to 300 kB/s minimum depending on factors like weather or time of day. From what I understand voice data is compressed via voice specific codecs. Most don't use more than 64 kB/s. [1] [2] [3] I think the silent calls are intermittent and by the time I've realised it would be probably pointless to test, however much of the time I could not say if the phone's browser was loading slow or fast as I rarely use any of the phone's functions apart from calls, plain sms texts, occasion to rare use of browser with preloaded tabs and creating a hotspot.
    Likewise though not quite the same, over the past years I've had networks where the phone might ring but it is not situated well enough for the signal to be able to carry out any sort of conversation - and yet via a hotspot, downloading near to 1 MB/s without skipping a beat.
    I still get some automated phone systems that are apparently not happy with the amount of voice data they are receiving even though what I hear is quite clear, and at times, have from near same time and spot, just rung other people who have not reported any difficulties hearing me. I've eventually learned to just hang up once the menu system goes awry and try a few hours later.
    [1] <a href="https://www.gl.com/voice-codecs.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.gl.com/voice-codecs.html (has the codecs with a breakdown below the table)
    [2] <a href="https://mobilepacketcore.com/glossary/codecs-audio-and-video-encoding-in-mobile-networks/" rel="nofollow">https://mobilepacketcore.com/glossary/codecs-audio-and-video... (brief overview including media streams )
    [3] <a href="https://phoneguides.org/voice-codecs/" rel="nofollow">https://phoneguides.org/voice-codecs/ (Iffy coded site, refused older firefox, janky with a fairly recent chrome based browser)
    ntlx · 1790393639 · focus · HN ↗
    Exact same thing happens to me, all the time. Verizon user on a traditional post-paid plan, with an iPhone 15 Pro Max, in the Los Angeles area.
    My phone will show as having full service, usually it displays as “LTE” in the top bar while at home whether or not I’m connected to WiFi, as soon as I step outside of my building and head 25 feet in any direction 5G or 5GUW seems to take over.
    It’s strange, I’ve always gotten missed calls over the many years I’ve been with Verizon (over 20) and I’m not entirely sure exactly when I noticed that people were increasingly telling me they called me, while I had zero idea or any way of knowing whatsoever. At best, I’d get lucky and they were one of the rare people still leaving voicemails these days, and an alert might show up for that at some random point.
    It got bad enough that after trying everything else, I even went and picked up one of those “network extender” boxes the carriers have from a Verizon retail store, out of a sense of desperation hoping it might help solve the issue, although I knew beforehand that almost surely it would not. Which was the case, of course.
    I wish I could say I had any idea as to what is actually causing this but all my attempts to pin down the root cause have proven to be a waste of time. A very frustrating waste of time. Worst of all is that as far as I can tell, it isn’t an issue that’s isolated to any single carrier, subcarrier, phone model, physical location, and so on. While there do appear to be some patterns here and there, it’s largely random and I don’t know if certain carriers have this issue worse than others but Verizon is frequently one mentioned. Whether or not that’s due to their popularity, my noticing it more because I use Verizon as well, or because it’s worse with them, who knows? Maybe someone reading this, lol.
    tkdb · 1790623247 · focus · HN ↗
    Thanks for taking the time to write this. This was basically my experience with Verizon across several years. As I said, I found T Mobile to be about the same.
KyleSanderson · 1790374014 · focus · HN ↗
I've noticed a number of modem issues. I don't think this is actually related to network behavior. Pixels specifically when roaming up until the 9 had severe issues typically after 24 hours with full disconnects. The majority of users don't roam, and when they do they blame the network, but I'm becoming more inclined to believe this is an end-device issue.
SnorkelTan · 1790375032 · focus · HN ↗
They should remove unlimited voice calls and make everyone using the phone network pay by the minute. It would eliminate robodialing instantly.
1. what · 1790375912 · focus · HN ↗
  I wish they would bring back prepaid service. I want a number where I can receive/send an occasional call or text without having to pay a monthly contract.
  1. drewnick · 1790376999 · focus · HN ↗
    tello gets you close in the US, a few dollars a month minimum ($5 maybe?) I use it on my burner flip phone.
    what · 1790386394 · focus · HN ↗
    Still, you used to be able to preload $5 of minutes/sms onto a phone and it would last until you used it up. I don’t want a monthly fee.
    supertrope · 1790449487 · focus · HN ↗
    This might be the market trying to tell you something...
    (Customers who don't provide at least $100/year in revenue cannot be sustainably serviced).
    I know AT&T Prepaid used to offer an option of $3/day, charged only on days you used it.
  2. fhdkweig · 1790378339 · focus · HN ↗
    I'm still on tracfone. Started their service around 2010 and other than a janky website, the phone service is fine.
    what · 1790386229 · focus · HN ↗
    >$99/year
    Still too high for a phone number I expect to get an sms per day.
    questionableans · 1790386899 · focus · HN ↗
    If you just need to receive an SMS but don’t actually need a cellular network, Google Voice is free.
    If you can stomach $3/mo + tax (totaling a little over $40/year), UltraMobile PayGo is the cheapest consumer option I’ve seen. It’s a T-Mobile owned MVNO.
    Past that, I’d look into IoT cellular options.
  3. iknowstuff · 1790379509 · focus · HN ↗
    That very much does exist still? reddit.com/r/nocontract
    what · 1790386154 · focus · HN ↗
    No, pay as you go. I want to put $5 and pay whatever per minute/sms until it runs out.
    drivingmenuts · 1790391397 · focus · HN ↗
    Then you'll have to be the change you want to see in the world. Otherwise, it's not coming back because it gives accountants, executives and investors nightmares about the bottom line.
    what · 1790459685 · focus · HN ↗
    This doesn’t make sense. Are you suggesting I start a telecom so I can offer pay as you go?
    drivingmenuts · 1790654968 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes.
    Alternately, you can bribe/buy enough legislators to get them to enact laws allowing/requiring pay-as-you-go plans, but if you have the money to do that, you might as well just form a company so you can do it at scale.
    toast0 · 1790615405 · focus · HN ↗
    The voip provider I use charges about $1/month for a (US/CA) phone number and $1.50/month for e911 service. A large cell phone company may have somewhat lower costs for those services, but I think the pricing floor is probably $3/month that has to come from somewhere.
    T-Mobile used to have a plan for you, but they stopped offering it to new customers in 2014; it does have a yearly minimum, but once you added $100 in topups, the minimum was $10/year; I think my mom must have more minutes than she'll ever use, but she still has to add ~ 100 minutes per year. Similarly, I had a SIM from virgin mobile UK that I got in 2008 that would stay active as long as it had activity, which included receiving SMS (which was free!). I doubt those are still available either and mine lapsed when I stopped using the SIM as the phone I had it in was 2G only and I lost coverage.
  4. sitzkrieg · 1790382544 · focus · HN ↗
    mint is great (if you dont mind tmobile), hard to beat $15/m for unlimited txt talk. the base data has gone up a few gb 6? but i never really use it
    what · 1790386316 · focus · HN ↗
    It seems like everyone is missing the “pay as you go” aspect. I don’t want to pay $15/month. I want plop down $X and pay per minute/sms until it runs out.
2. [deleted] · 1790376286 · focus · HN ↗
  [deleted]
3. goshx · 1790377439 · focus · HN ↗
  spam calls are not free, but the cost is very low.
4. autoexec · 1790377467 · focus · HN ↗
  telemarketers were a thing before cell phones and they weren't just calling homes in their local calling area. The economics must have made it worth their phone bills. I'm also not a fan of punishing everyone to make things a little harder for a small number of assholes.
5. DANmode · 1790565763 · focus · HN ↗
  So would a culture that forced unknown callers to leave a voicemail.
kelnos · 1790375156 · focus · HN ↗
[delayed]
cyberax · 1790376232 · focus · HN ↗
Are you sure you don't have any misbehaving spam detectors? The voice circuits are VERY robust, low bandwidth, and cellular providers prioritize voice calls. There's just no reason to purposefully throttle the voice calls, the bandwidth savings would be negligible.
But it's possible that your cellular provider has misconfigured STIR/SHAKEN validation and/or some badly behaving spam call detection.
1. edelbitter · 1790377957 · focus · HN ↗
  [delayed]
  1. nixosbestos · 1790380015 · focus · HN ↗
    What on Earth are you talking about? Pixel Call Screening has been around a while (~2 years, at least), and definitely can be turned off.
    edelbitter · 1790381126 · focus · HN ↗
    Automatic call screening is available in just a select few jurisdictions where that would be legal. In the remaining supported countries, one would explicitly opt in or disable the feature altogether as they please. Last month some rapist mentality dev decided that I am no longer worthy of having that toggle in the settings because my consent does not matter. So now the toggle is hidden, the feature is on. (I can briefly regain control by resetting the phone app to factory defaults, but it keeps coming back.. until Google fixes their happy little mistake).
2. FireBeyond · 1790379186 · focus · HN ↗
  Voice "circuits" are largely a thing of the past. Most cellular calls are VoLTE or VoIP directly (though I'm certain there's shaping/QOS/etc., in play).
  On the spam topic though, it is, or was, a common tactic for some spammers to do just enough on the call initialization front to generate a missed call or similar without actually ringing a device, leave no VM, the goal being to prompt you to return the call. Though this doesn't fit with the time delay aspect.
  1. cyberax · 1790380361 · focus · HN ↗
    They are still separated from the regular traffic (via VLAN/VxLANs/MPLS, whatever). So your device will have a separate hidden IP (IPv6 or IPv4) that is used ONLY for voice connections, and it's typically firewalled to hell and back.
    One significant reason is roaming and inter-provider calls. Internal calls can go through a fully IP-native network, but external calls often need SS7 singalling and arcane interconnects. And you really don't want your SS7 switches to be even pingable from the public network.
    BTW, one thing to check: misbehaving WiFi calling. It works by establishing an IPSec connection with the ISP's infrastructure for that hidden IP. It should not be possible on a cellular connection (because what's the point?), but given the decline in technical expertise, I'd also disable it to see if it helps.
    gruez · 1790384318 · focus · HN ↗
    >It should not be possible on a cellular connection (because what's the point?),
    It makes sense on dual sim phones, eg. sim 1 is connected to cell network, but sim2 doesn't have signal or is roaming.
    <a href="https://ask.irobinpro.com/uploads/default/original/1X/80bd62f316cc8ccab3925a4c3ef185c2a8b4b67c.png" rel="nofollow">https://ask.irobinpro.com/uploads/default/original/1X/80bd62...
3. tkdb · 1790623362 · focus · HN ↗
  Possible? That people I call and call me every day, business people who I have dozens of calls with a month, and strangers (say a dentist office or new contact) all behave about the same made me think it was not as simple as over suspicious spam filtering. I also get a few spam calls a week, which both show up on missed call logs and sometimes leave voice messages.
cprayingmantis · 1790376594 · focus · HN ↗
Locally Verizon coverage has regressed over the past few years and I’m beginning to think about switching to T-Mobile myself. Verizon used to be the king of rural coverage but they’ve increasingly been usurped by T-Mobile who are putting equipment on rural towers at an increased rate.
1. tkdb · 1790648286 · focus · HN ↗
  While the issue may boil down to coverage, it happens when my phone has full service and/or is connected to wifi. I'm using apps, can pull up youtube and use other high bandwidth apps just fine.
  I'll get a text "why aren't you picking up? I tried calling 4x." I have no missed calls. The missed calls never appear on my device. In some cases, I call right back and I get through. In other case, I try calling and my call, too, doesn't go through. I switch to whatsapp and get through on the first ring, and the voice call via whatsapp works fine.
gruez · 1790377672 · focus · HN ↗
>Hypothesis: A growing number of cellular subscribers don't care enough or use voice calls as much, so (regardless of motive/feelings) cellular providers have found they can simply reduce quality without losing customers.
This makes absolutely zero sense because calls take negligible bandwidth, especially with VoLTE. Not to mention the whole premise isn't even internally consistent. "People don't use it enough, so let's try to save money by making them use it even less!"
1. tkdb · 1790623077 · focus · HN ↗
  >People don't use it enough, so let's try to save money by making them use it even less!
  Isn't business ultimately responding to existential pressure? Examples abound of "what if we our product was slightly crappier, would we make more or less money?"
  In any case, I'm not here to defend the idea, I mostly wanted to see if others are experiencing the same chronic underperformance I have over the last few years.
lisp2240 · 1790378466 · focus · HN ↗
Settings > Apps > Phone > Screen Unknown Callers > Never
1. tkdb · 1790623554 · focus · HN ↗
  That is my setting, and has been across several devices, on both Verizon and TMobile. The ghost calls occur with both regular contacts and unknown numbers, seemingly at random (ie sometimes the new number comes through as expected).
corbins · 1790378766 · focus · HN ↗
When is the last time a flagship phone release promoted its qualities as a telephone, like call fidelity? Others could better comment on this but I think landlines were leagues better in latency and sound quality. Kinda integral pieces to the experience of talking to someone.
1. gruez · 1790384067 · focus · HN ↗
  >When is the last time a flagship phone release promoted its qualities as a telephone, like call fidelity?
  Because nobody calls anymore. If anything calling is considered rude compared to texting, to the extent that some text first before calling.
  >Others could better comment on this but I think landlines were leagues better in latency and sound quality.
  landline latency (near instant, if you're both on the same CO) is basically impossible to achieve with a digital system, because of all the buffers and packets involved.
2. supertrope · 1790449897 · focus · HN ↗
  Use Voice Isolation, Wide Spectrum, or Automatic Mic Mode on your iPhone and iPad <a href="https://support.apple.com/en-us/101993" rel="nofollow">https://support.apple.com/en-us/101993
saturn8601 · 1790380777 · focus · HN ↗
Oh man, did I go through this hell with a lot of MVNOs like two years ago. Pushed me to buy T-Mobile's most expensive plan. Something I actually regret to this day now, because I'm not sure if I got any real tangible benefit from it compared to all the money that went down the drain. However, now that I think about it, I don't feel like I've been getting too many ghost calls as I used to. It's hard for me to measure because in the last two years, I've been getting less overall calls as more of my colleagues transition to just texting.
I doubt QCI levels are affected by this. I think Call handshakes are QCI 5 and the calls themselves are QCI 1 but im not an expert.
Have you tried disabling 5G and dropping back down to 4G? I heard that the transition from VoLTE to VoNR might still be sketchy and not fully solidified. Just turn off data altogether and see for a while to see if that improves things.
Maybe porting your primary number to a cloud PBX service like Google Voice or some business oriented service? When someone calls your number, the carrier-to-carrier SIP handshake happens on Google's redundant enterprise servers instead of targeting your sleeping iPhone. Google's servers instantly answer the routing request, hopefully preventing a timeout. GV then forwards the call to your iPhone's GV app using a standard data push notification, hopefully waking the phone reliably?
Just throwing ideas out. If you've tried these already, apologies for the redundancy.
1. dv_dt · 1790381723 · focus · HN ↗
  I use and am thrilled with US mobile. Otherwise no affiliation. Lots of different options, including which backbone network you're line is currently on, and as far as I can tell the options are all switchable online with very little fuss.
2. tkdb · 1790623132 · focus · HN ↗
  Thanks for this - there may be a few things I can try here.
jamesforestwest · 1790387877 · focus · HN ↗
[dead]
karp773 · 1790400168 · focus · HN ↗
As T-Mobile was rolling out 5G they dropped support for 3G and possibly some older standards/protocols. If you have an oldish phone that may be the problem.
1. tkdb · 1790623489 · focus · HN ↗
  I'm currently on an iphone 17 pro, and I am usually one a phone that is within the latest three release cycles. I'm pretty sure I had a little of this before 5g rolled out, but I've seen a big spike in the ghost calls after 5g arrived.

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