Thread

Australia says it could follow Canada in forging deeper ties with EU

254 points · 216 comments · doener

mindwok · 1789603159 · focus · HN ↗
As an Australian, I have noticed a shift personally in feeling like I identify more with "European" culture, compared to 10 years ago I felt like we were the 51st state and I felt very close with the US.
This seems to be shared by others, I remember reading there was a survey that asked Australians who they felt our closest international friend was. The US was the top answer for over a decade, having stolen the crown from the UK I think in the late 90s or something. Recently though, it switched to New Zealand.
1. drekipus · 1789603503 · focus · HN ↗
  I don't believe that. Can you find this survey you were talking about?
  1. latexr · 1789604649 · focus · HN ↗
    Basic web search for “australia survey closest international friend” returned <a href="https://poll.lowyinstitute.org/charts/australias-best-friend-world/" rel="nofollow">https://poll.lowyinstitute.org/charts/australias-best-friend...
    drekipus · 1789612219 · focus · HN ↗
    Right, so the US had a high of 35% and then dropped and has never been higher than that.
    I just wanted to check the OPs survey because it could have been something different i.e.: that supports the claim
2. cosmic_cheese · 1789604501 · focus · HN ↗
  From the American side it felt like we had more cross-pollination with Australia in the 90s than in the decades following. Disney even had a studio out there that animated some of the TV shows it aired in the US (and presumably in Australia too).
  Not sure what changed.
  1. carefree-bob · 1789605249 · focus · HN ↗
    Apart from the "Crocodile Dundee" and "Men at Work" phenomena in the late 80s, there is no real cultural pollination between Australia and the US, as far as I can tell. It's too far away and there are no real reasons for Americans to visit, nor are there enough internationally notable Australian music brands, films, or products that give visibility to the country, which is one price of being a commodity producing nation rather than finished goods. We know about Japanese and British prodigious cultural output, Japanese manufactures, German cars and Swiss machine tools and watches, but what product makes Australia stand out? Coal, copper, etc.
    Didn't Australia used to have an auto industry? I kinda feel like Australia stopped producing culturally relevant output in the late 80s or 90s.
    tecoholic · 1789606360 · focus · HN ↗
    Haven’t Australians just moved to US - Keith Urban, Chris Hemsworth, Russel Crowe, Nicole Kidman, Margot Robbie and the list goes on … it’s not the same way as Japanese’s or Korean output, because English as the native language makes the transition seamless and doesn’t stand out.
    Oh! I forgot JIRA and Atlassian are Australian too :D Now you really can’t deny you haven’t felt the Australian influence in your life. Lol
    carefree-bob · 1789606970 · focus · HN ↗
    That's a good point, the US might just be sucking all the culturally relevant output out of the country.
    2muchcoffeeman · 1789611524 · focus · HN ↗
    I think Australia imports too much American culture. So we want to participate in the same culture. So the stars try and get work in Hollywood.
    At least singers participating in K Pop bands is within the region.
    It’s too bad because Australia produces some really good stuff and most of it never gets the attention it deserves, not even from Australians.
    inkyoto · 1789607680 · focus · HN ↗
    That is a relatively recent change.
    In the 80-90's, the most popular destination for Australians was the UK: Nick Cave, Kylie Minogue, Lisa Gerrard (of Dead Can Dance fame) and many others moved up there.
    dofm · 1789611433 · focus · HN ↗
    Canva, Blackmagic Design.
    Wifi, actually, was developed there (CSIRO patents)
    Danox · 1789614603 · focus · HN ↗
    Blackmagic Design is it very good company no excuses. They support all three platforms.
    protocolture · 1789615420 · focus · HN ↗
    >Wifi, actually, was developed there (CSIRO patents)
    Ehhh thats more like CSIRO patent trolls for wifi.
    My recollection is that the particular trick they patented was already in use in CDMA networks, the CSIRO did it using 2.4GHz on a low power device and called it a new invention. But honestly it reeks of Microsoft pursuing anyone using a file allocation table
    astrange · 1789624028 · focus · HN ↗
    rsync, seL4, Google Photos and Maps, Jira and Confluence
    Danox · 1789614117 · focus · HN ↗
    Most are probably on the west coast California, Washington, Oregon and Canada (British Columbia). And let’s not forget Hawaii.
    pinchydev · 1789606469 · focus · HN ↗
    Don't forget Bluey :)
    (which like most good Australian innovations only became global when it was licensed to another country, in Bluey's case the BBC/UK)
    Loudergood · 1789608398 · focus · HN ↗
    US Childrens television is full of Commonwealth media. TVO in Ontario is an absolute childrens media powerhouse.
    This cultural sharing and integration has been a massive strength, and I'm horrified that we have people that want to throw it away.
    [deleted] · 1789606593 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    a34729t · 1789609216 · focus · HN ↗
    Re autos, IIRC Holden shut down in the late 2000s. But the Australian economy (and Canadian, for that matter) is just houses and holes.
    mindwok · 1789623789 · focus · HN ↗
    We prefer rocks and reef tours thank you.
    sincarne · 1789648352 · focus · HN ↗
    Canada’s tech, finance, agriculture, and energy industries would like a word.
    sklargh · 1789609928 · focus · HN ↗
    Holden, truly an incredible brand. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Ute" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Ute
    wlalchia · 1789616417 · focus · HN ↗
    found the bogan
    sklargh · 1789839438 · focus · HN ↗
    I cannot deny myself a V8 dropped ute
    carefree-bob · 1789620777 · focus · HN ↗
    Oh nice! I follow automotive youtube, and Tavarish recently worked on one of those: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfR9iY5y94s" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfR9iY5y94s
    dofm · 1789610411 · focus · HN ↗
    You rely heavily on Australia for both blockbuster and character actors. If they aren’t already British or Irish or Canadian, they are likely Aussies (or New Zealanders - sometimes seems like you barely have any actors of broad ability who you haven’t imported).
    Margot Robbie, Geoffrey Rush, Hugh Jackman, Guy Pearce, Russell Crowe, Nicole Kidman, Cate Blanchett, Chris Hemsworth (all three Hemsworths!), Toni Collette, Hugo Weaving, Eric Bana, Rose Byrne, Naomi Watts, Simon Baker, Judy Davis, Anthony and Jonathan LaPaglia, Poppy Montgomery, Rachel Griffiths, Miranda Otto, Portia De Rossi, Jacob Elordi… the list goes on and on and on (and includes the late Heath Ledger and Errol Flynn). These are just the easiest ones to name!
    Directors: absolutely loads of them actually but notably Baz Lurhmann, Peter Weir, Bruce Beresford.
    Films: Mad Max series, Gallipoli, Dead Calm, Muriel’s Wedding, Priscilla Queen of The Desert, Walkabout, Picnic At Hanging Rock, Sirens, The Piano, Rabbit Proof Fence, Lantana, Moulin Rouge, The Babadook, Daybreakers, The Great Gatsby. (Baz Lurhmann obviously ranks high here)
    Again just the easiest ones.
    (Also if you have never seen it: Mary & Max. Thank me later)
    Also: Bluey!!!!
    Now stop making me defend Australians, I’m British. There’s a rivalry to maintain here for both our sakes.
    protocolture · 1789614809 · focus · HN ↗
    >Pom >Almost but not quite able to finish the post without whinging.
    Checks out.
    dofm · 1789655628 · focus · HN ↗
    ^^ spot the bogan ;-)
    No grasp of when to quit while you're ahead.
    If I'd wanted to score a negative point I would have listed the trans-national bigot Mel Gibson (only American by birth) along with Mad Max.
    (Though that reminds me — in the films list I forgot to mention his debut film Tim, which is a lovely film that definitely had a US distribution and a US co-star)
    protocolture · 1789682869 · focus · HN ↗
    >I could have whinged even more!
    Maybe not the amazing argument you thought it was.
    dofm · 1789684232 · focus · HN ↗
    Mate. I was being funny. Now you're not. Get it together. Maybe put a chip on the other shoulder, balance yourself out.
    protocolture · 1789684806 · focus · HN ↗
    I legit thought you were playing up the stereotype to be funny and commented to that effect.
    throw0101c · 1789611363 · focus · HN ↗
    > "Men at Work"
    I was confused for a little while:
    * <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_at_Work_(1990_film)" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_at_Work_(1990_film)
    tim333 · 1789655507 · focus · HN ↗
    I think it might be <a href="https://youtu.be/XfR9iY5y94s" rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/XfR9iY5y94s
  2. -0_0- · 1789607602 · focus · HN ↗
    There was a really great writeup by someone who worked in that Disney animation shop on a blog I once stumbled on - he wrote about how he took on the 'job of a lifetime' as a teenager while his mother was terminally ill and how that impacts your priorities.
    Incredibly moving read that I unfortunately can't find now, but it covered how the Sydney office ended, from memory it was a combination of CGI changing the industry, and cost - Australian wages weren't cheap and the studio was mostly used for producing direct-to-video sequels which was a market that dried up.
    The actual big influence on the Australian-American cross pollination though, I suspect, was Rupert Murdoch's expansion into the American film and TV industry. For all his faults, he was a big champion of talent from his homeland in both his movies and Fox TV network. Even the infamous Simpsons Australia episode was likely influenced by the big influence of Australians at Fox at that time.
    snypher · 1789612376 · focus · HN ↗
    Was it James Baker?
    <a href="https://www.james-baker.com/news/the-inbetweener/" rel="nofollow">https://www.james-baker.com/news/the-inbetweener/
  3. sbseitz · 1789612982 · focus · HN ↗
    Trump.
    apercu · 1789651006 · focus · HN ↗
    Also the GOP. They stopped being "conservative" a long time ago and became performative terrorists.
3. Barrin92 · 1789604901 · focus · HN ↗
  As a German guy who backpacked through Australia for a while when I was studying the drinking culture definitely made you guys seem European I can you tell you that much, I didn't feel far from home
4. mynameisash · 1789604942 · focus · HN ↗
  I'm surprised - aren't AU & NZ super close culturally and aligned politically? I would have thought the US, CA, et al would be vying for a distant second.
  1. BLKNSLVR · 1789605686 · focus · HN ↗
    NZ is always the correct answer but is rarely given because it's taken for granted.
    marcus_holmes · 1789606095 · focus · HN ↗
    If they'd only just admit they didn't invent Pavlova, it would definitely be obvious. But the Kiwis are a stubborn bunch...
    latentsea · 1789613781 · focus · HN ↗
    Not need to claim you didn't invent it when you did.
  2. bashtoni · 1789606583 · focus · HN ↗
    NZ isn't big enough to think about. Don't tell them because they get very upset.
  3. pinchydev · 1789606692 · focus · HN ↗
    Not only close, but NZ was originally slated to join Australia and is indeed named in the original Australian Constitution (that created federation) as one of the original 7 states.
  4. aussieguy1234 · 1789612140 · focus · HN ↗
    Australians and New Zelalanders don't need a visa to travel either way.
    In NZ, I approached the immigration desk with my American partner at the time, they stamped her passport with a visa but said to me I didn't need one.
    tripleee · 1789613991 · focus · HN ↗
    Not just travel. Australians can live, work and own real estate there last I checked
5. zulux · 1789605050 · focus · HN ↗
  [dead]
  1. loufe · 1789605562 · focus · HN ↗
    Identify in what way? What do you mean by "identity with"? The other poster is speaking of their own experience
  2. marcus_holmes · 1789605998 · focus · HN ↗
    You do not understand it.
    You are probably listening or watching the same folks who are calling the UK an "Islamic sultanate".
  3. avazhi · 1789606731 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
  4. 1attice · 1789606924 · focus · HN ↗
    Talking to Americans
6. bigger_cheese · 1789605722 · focus · HN ↗
  Australia's alignment with the US was a major consequence of World War 2 and the aftermath of that.
  Pre WW2 we were basically in lockstep with the UK. However after Singapore fell to the Japanese it became increasingly obvious that the UK could not be relied upon to defend Australia. At the time most of the elite Australian troops were fighting in North Africa (El-Alamein, Tobruk etc). and there was a genuine perceived threat that Australia could be invaded. PNG which was Australian territory at the time was invaded. The Japanese bombing of Darwin only intensified this.
  Almost overnight our foreign policy swung behind the US instead. Post WW2 this led to things like the ANZUS Treaty. It is the reason there are US military bases in Australia and the reason why we have followed the US into all of their wars which we arguably had no business involving ourselves in (Vietnam, Iraq etc.).
  Personally I feel the recent actions of the US are not beneficial to Australia's interests at all. Trump has squandered an awful lot of accumulated goodwill already, even if another government is elected in US a lot of damage has already been done.
  1. autumnstwilight · 1789607944 · focus · HN ↗
    I've been thinking the silver lining of the current situation is that we'll be less inclined to send troops to aid US in their latest Middle East boondoggle, in the expectation of reciprocation in the future.
    In other online spaces, I've seen some conservative commenters from the US asserting that America is so powerful, the rest of the world has no choice but to go along with them, and therefore there is no need to maintain good relationships and the US should do what most immediately benefits itself at all times. Certainly, there are some areas where we simply have to play along with the US, but I think they are underestimating the amount of things where they will no longer be our first choice to deal with.
    XorNot · 1789610912 · focus · HN ↗
    The problem with deciding you're so powerful you can force everyone to follow you is you actually have to force everyone to follow you and it turns out that's super expensive and costs you a lot of power in terms of committed assets to do it.
  2. protocolture · 1789615567 · focus · HN ↗
    >Almost overnight our foreign policy swung behind the US instead.
    We still had dual citizen brits running government departments making pro UK decisions until like the 70s or 80s. The UK/US have sort of shared us until the 90s. We let the poms nuke SA.
    [deleted] · 1789635053 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
  3. [deleted] · 1789641513 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
7. mianos · 1789608120 · focus · HN ↗
  Having spent a lot of time in the UK, EU and US, I feel Sydney is way more like California than say London or European cities, in terms of living, shopping and culture. Even things from the US are coming here, like the growth of Halloween.
  If you walk into a shop, the US is much more like Australia in terms of service and attitude (even though retail staff are paid vastly differently).
  I always thought this was due to TV and Australia having remote branches of many US retail chains.
  Outside of California, it's similar but diverges a lot in areas like socialism. In the recent 20 years Australia has pretty much become more like the EU in terms of socialism.
  1. blululu · 1789612324 · focus · HN ↗
    I've always felt that Australia felt like a British version of California. Though California is itself a bit exceptional in the context of America. The two places have a lot in common though - not withstanding the fact that everyone drives on the wrong side of the road and uses different power cables.
    mianos · 1789614510 · focus · HN ↗
    But you can bend the pins of the power cables and make them fit. :)
    blululu · 1789665791 · focus · HN ↗
    True. You can also drive on the right side down there, but the police are quite stuffy about it.
    mianos · 1789686694 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    astrange · 1789623902 · focus · HN ↗
    Brisbane is like Miami if it was full of British people. (Except richer and with sunburns.)
    Melbourne is like Seattle if… actually it's literally just Seattle except they think they invented it.
  2. holgerschurig · 1789613501 · focus · HN ↗
    Well, socialism died out in Europe around 1989. When the iron curtain fell. Currently there is not a single country that has socialism in it's constitution. In the EU, but also in exactly zero non-EU european countries.
    To educate: socialism has nothing to with how influence the execute or legislative has. Nor has it anything to do with health insurance.
    The central point of the ideology called "socialism" is that control of the state (not of private owners) over the "means of production". Like capital, land, workforce. To gain this control, socialism is keen to use force. They call it e.g. "dictatorship of the proletariat". Usually this leads to heavy oppression of the people, to some sort of police state. If you look at any real socialist country (like GDR, USSR, Yugoslavia, Cuba, North Korea) you'll always find it to some sort. Even in today's China the banks are still under government control, so "the party" has the ultimate say in everything.
    You usage of "socialism" doesn't fit that at all. Perhaps you meant something that isn't fully libertarian?
    My guess is the US people are badly educated these days. And thus easily influenced with false factoids coming from libertarian oligarchs like the Koch brothers.
    And also it seems like they never heard about "social market economy" ... I mean, there is a spectrum between a fully socialist country like e.g. North Korea and a fully capitalist like ... actually we don't have one that is purely capitalist. Not even in the USA does the "market regulates everything".
    And also I think that quite a few people never pondered about the idea that there are two words ("social" and "socialism") for a reason.
    MentalM · 1789616481 · focus · HN ↗
    > The central point of the ideology called "socialism" is that control of the state (not of private owners) over the "means of production".
    > Usually this leads to heavy oppression of the people, to some sort of police state.
    And EU are doing all of that (through bureaucratic regulations and control over the media).
    > there is not a single country that has socialism in it's constitution
    But it matters what it is in a political reality, not what has been write down in some papers.
    hunterpayne · 1789617242 · focus · HN ↗
    The irony of this post is truly off the scale.
    The term socialism wasn't defined by Marx. That's the heart of why you don't understand the definition of that word. There are a half dozen different branches with different definitions, all of which predate Marx. The only reason that you think that is that Lenin made him famous. But you can have socialism without any of the things you mention. It still doesn't work but its different. Think Finland in the 1970s or Sweden in the 1980s. Or Britain and Spain today. Those are all socialist societies by their own definitions. They also don't work.
    PS Now a serious question, do you think your country is worth defending? If not, why should another country think it is?
    rsynnott · 1789629731 · focus · HN ↗
    > Or Britain and Spain today. Those are all socialist societies by their own definitions.
    ... Er, no, Britain is not a socialist society by its own definitions, or anyone else's (unless you want to stretch the term so far that it encompasses Labour's fairly minimal social democracy, but at that point the term is becoming almost meaningless). Where are you getting that?
    hunterpayne · 1789786866 · focus · HN ↗
    From the Fabians...
    mianos · 1789617571 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
  3. underwater · 1789617432 · focus · HN ↗
    I agree. Since moving back from California a decade ago, Australia has felt more and more American.
    Big cars, the slow incursion of American sports, more American brands popping up (including Starbucks actually getting a foothold), Gen-Z using American terms like math and trash, and a rise in the “screw you” style of American individualism.
    I don’t think any of this is making Australia a better place to live.
  4. astrange · 1789623831 · focus · HN ↗
    > Even things from the US are coming here, like the growth of Halloween.
    Halloween is nearly 100% Irish/Scottish. The only American contributions are using a pumpkin, and sometimes holding it in a parking lot.
8. SlightlyLeftPad · 1789609029 · focus · HN ↗
  As an American, I identify more with European culture compared to 10 years ago.
9. gexla · 1789610431 · focus · HN ↗
  This may be partially why the US dispatched the LA Rams and the SF 49ers. Even though McDonald's has hundreds of US bases in Australia, the corp lacks a rushing and passing game. I don't see the NFL being successful there, but time will tell. Interesting note, in SE Asia, I watch NFL commentators based in the UK. It's strange seeing NFL talk with a British accent. And TIL. I always thought the Hungry Jack's was a Burger King knockoff, but apparently it's actually Burger King with a different name.
10. mrcwinn · 1789611269 · focus · HN ↗
  As an American, I hope you can identify strongly as an Australian. Why bother telling yourself you’re something of a European?
  In any case, I hope countries form ties with Europe. Europe needs be economically stronger than it is. Better for the world, so long as they can slow their tendencies toward government control and censorship.
  1. dofm · 1789612668 · focus · HN ↗
    FYI I don’t think anyone is accepting American critique on government control and censorship right now. Maybe leave it for a decade or two.
    edgyquant · 1789613821 · focus · HN ↗
    MAGA wishes it had the control over industries and speech that European governments have. Give me a break
    rsynnott · 1789630238 · focus · HN ↗
    It's, ah, not that simple. So for instance, on speech, see things like <a href="https://www.texastribune.org/2023/11/20/texas-ken-paxton-elon-musk-media-matters/" rel="nofollow">https://www.texastribune.org/2023/11/20/texas-ken-paxton-elo... .
    In the US, some states are politically... out there (Ken Paxton there, you almost wouldn't believe he existed, he's like a caricature: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Paxton#Legal_issues" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Paxton#Legal_issues). And they can have an impact over the whole union; in this case, a DC journalism non-profit has to take this nonsnse seriously, and had to spend resources defending itself.
    In the EU, some countries are politically... out there. For instance, see Hungary, particularly before they managed to dump Orban. But media organisations in, say, Denmark, don't really have to care at all about what Hungary thinks about their reporting; the sort of interstate anti-speech lawfare above simply doesn't really happen in Europe.
    dofm · 1789655475 · focus · HN ↗
    I mean — Brendan Carr seems to be able to bully the TV industry pretty successfully on behalf of MAGA. Trump shakes down businesses for a government cut — Intel for example. You are deporting foreigners based on their opinions. Trump shook down most of the major law firms for pro-bono work based only on a false perception of his mistreatment. He's pursued and pretty successfully harassed major universities into various forms of consent decree. People lost their jobs for exercising their free speech over Charlie Kirk (most of whom did not really see any kind of restoration). Trump extracted settlements from major news networks for content he didn't like based on his own fantasy misunderstanding.
    The list goes on and on and on — Europe as a whole does not act in this thuggish, extrajudicial, capricious way.
  2. marcus_holmes · 1789615756 · focus · HN ↗
    But there's whole communities of Americans who identify as Irish, or Anglo-Saxon, or whatever.
  3. crossroadsguy · 1789615914 · focus · HN ↗
    People identify with other places, people, policies, and cultures — along with their own, or wherever they're originally from. Sometimes they don't even identify with their own, or say, feel alienated. It's perfectly fine, and in fact a very healthy state of being.
  4. betterbeehome · 1789617495 · focus · HN ↗
    The civil national identity is wasting away. I'm less and less inclined to call myself Australian, as opposed to English, because Australia now is for everybody. An Australian doesn't even mean a funny accent anymore. It doesn't mean anything.
  5. ulfw · 1789624893 · focus · HN ↗
    You're native American or why do you say something like this?
  6. koonsolo · 1789641225 · focus · HN ↗
    Censorship? Do you mean the fact that we hold platforms accountable if they post hate speech or misinformation, or is this something else?
    DaSHacka · 1789669364 · focus · HN ↗
    > Censorship? You mean when we censor people for speech we don't like?
    uh, yeah.
    koonsolo · 1789670572 · focus · HN ↗
    Speech inciting hatred, violence, or plain misinformation is harmful and so should be illegal or restricted.
    DaSHacka · 1789670860 · focus · HN ↗
    Cool idea, feel free to run your police state of a country that way.
    I'll continue enjoying my 1st and 2nd amendments though.
    koonsolo · 1789672185 · focus · HN ↗
    I like the small % of nutcases in my country. We also consider disinformation a national security threat. That way a foreign adversary cannot push the public into voting for an incompetent, ignorant and arrogant criminal narcissist. I don't want my country to turn into an idiocracy.
    And concerning your 2nd amendment, I also own guns. The difference is that only sane, non-violent people can have guns in my country, and crazy people not. You know, crazy people that would take their guns to schools and start shooting.
    Enjoy your freedom!
11. aaron695 · 1789614021 · focus · HN ↗
  [dead]
12. Danox · 1789614055 · focus · HN ↗
  New Zealand and Canada felt the same way in some respects. Move on and become stronger countries.
13. ulfw · 1789619883 · focus · HN ↗
  What a weird thing that we ever felt this way as our way of living has nothing in coming with Americans (except for big trucks driving through empty lands).
  Our labour laws, minimum wage, holidays, our Medicare system etc etc is a lot more socialist European than megacorporist American
14. [deleted] · 1789632061 · focus · HN ↗
  [deleted]
15. [deleted] · 1789635843 · focus · HN ↗
  [deleted]
16. tim333 · 1789655708 · focus · HN ↗
  The election of MAGA ten years ago changed US culture in strange ways.
17. rawgabbit · 1789661342 · focus · HN ↗
  As an American, because of Trump's actions, I identify more with "European" culture and feel I am a stranger in my own land.

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