Thread

1. atoav · 1791104660 · focus · HN ↗

   If every building and other piece of infrastructure essentially powers itself, that means to disable a bunch of targets you now can't just disable a central substation that feeds them, you have to disable the targets themselves, and depending on the nature of the targets that may no longer be economical.

   It also no longer makes sense to attack the connecting lines between them as well.

   1. gnull · 1791106665 · focus · HN ↗

      Disabling them is a means to deal economic damage, not an end-goal in itself.

      People built centralized grids because it's cheaper to build and service when the equipment is concentrated in one place. The economy of scale kicks in.

      If you move to decentralized so there's fewer outages, but now you're paying extra to maintain it, your solution is not as good as it used to be, that's economic damage right there.

      And your enemy probably will also stop targeting the small decentralized grid elements, so they're not spending bucks on missiles. They can use more of them to hit other parts of your economy that are still centralized.

      Estimating the net impact of this change is bigger than the article suggests.

      1. glenstein · 1791107505 · focus · HN ↗

         What does the distinction between economic damage and not being an end goal in itself have to do with anything? Either way it's a live goal being pursued and decentralizing will mitigate Russia's ability to inflict pain.

         You're right that centralized grids are cheaper (as long as the utilities maintaining them are good faith actors) and that switching to decentralized solutions brings new maintenance costs. But this is a war, the choice isn't been idealized central distribution and costs of decentralization, it's between the latter and a grid under siege by missiles. Relying on a grid that's being struck by missiles with no backup plan isn't economical either.

         Also in your other comment you were claiming PV being outside was "much easier to hit" but now you are saying those systems probably won't be targeted.

         1. gnull · 1791109870 · focus · HN ↗

            > mitigate Russia's ability to inflict pain

            The crux of the distinction I'm making is right there. Russia is not doing some ephemeral "inflict pain", it's pursuing a clear objective of draining Ukraine's budget.

            The way I'd do it if I was in Kremlin is something close to make up a list of targets, rank them by (Ukraine's cost to maintain)/(Russia's cost of missiles), pick the top 3-5 and hit them. Also continuously update the cost estimates and reevaluate those 3-5 targets.

            In this vocabulary, Ukraine moving to decentralized is a cost in itself, so if it does pay that cost to move "energy grid" item down Russia's list, Russia can celebrate it and move on to the next target. If this happens, Ukraine will have paid the cost of moving to decentralized, and will be continuously paying a penalty for it, while Russia's coat of incurring that on Ukraine goes to zero (since the new missiles are hitting different targets).

            And critically, if we assume moving to decentralized will make it pointless for Russia to hit the grid, deciding how much will it help requires knowing what target they will aim those newly freed missiles at, and how much cost that is going to incur.

            > you were claiming PV being outside was "much easier to hit" but now you are saying those systems probably won't be targeted.

            These are all hypotheticals, I assumed we're on the same page about it. We don't really know here in this forum what's going to work. Considering two contradicting hypotheticals in different threads is alright.

            My comments are not about what is true, what's going to actually happen on the ground. They're about how one should go about arguing whatever they're arguing for, what reservations they're missing, and what assumptions they made they're not aware of.

            1. neoromantique · 1791112216 · focus · HN ↗

               >Russia is not doing some ephemeral "inflict pain"

               Oh but it is, there is no other explanation why civilian heating facilities are being targeted during winter otherwise, they don't cost much to fix, and actually cost a lot to target, but they do bring a lot of pain to the civilian population (winters in Ukraine are brutal).

               And as if it wasn't obvious enough, the anti-ukrainian government bot campaigns that always coincide with the attacks make it obvious beyond belief.

               1. drysine · 1791117724 · focus · HN ↗

                  >why civilian heating facilities are being targeted during winter

                  Because these are cogeneration[0] facilities - they generate both electricity and heat.

                  [0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Cogeneration" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Cogeneration

                  1. neoromantique · 1791118572 · focus · HN ↗

                     Sure, but they generate civilian electricity, military has generators, and had them for years, so it just doubles the war crime.

                     1. drysine · 1791120834 · focus · HN ↗

                        &gt;civilian electricity

                        Luckily, NATO spokesman answered that question 27 years ago.

                        Press conference by Mr Jamie Shea, NATO Spokesman, 25 May 1999 [0]

                        Question (Norwegian News Agency): I am sorry Jamie but if you say that the Army has a lot of back-up generators, why are you depriving 70% of the country of not only electricity, but also water supply, if he has so much back-up electricity that he can use because you say you are only targeting military targets?

                        Jamie Shea : Yes, I&#x27;m afraid electricity also drives command and control systems. If President Milosevic really wants all of his population to have water and electricity all he has to do is accept NATO&#x27;s five conditions and we will stop this campaign. But as long as he doesn&#x27;t do so we will continue to attack those targets which provide the electricity for his armed forces.

                        [0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nato.int&#x2F;en&#x2F;news-and-events&#x2F;events&#x2F;transcripts&#x2F;1999&#x2F;05&#x2F;25&#x2F;press-conference" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nato.int&#x2F;en&#x2F;news-and-events&#x2F;events&#x2F;transcripts&#x2F;1...

                        1. neoromantique · 1791124845 · focus · HN ↗

                           Checked out your other comments, wish I would&#x27;ve done so before engaging.

                           Bye.

                           1. gnull · 1791127077 · focus · HN ↗

                              Yeah, the C++ comments this gentleman posts ate rather repelling.

                              1. neoromantique · 1791127816 · focus · HN ↗

                                 &quot;Western and Ukrainian propaganda wants you to believe so you keep voting for the politicians that prop the regime in Kiev with your tax money&quot;

                                 I&#x27;d rather not discuss it with people who can&#x27;t even spell Kyiv correctly, I&#x27;m good.

                                 EDIT: Read your comments, two for two, damn.

                                 1. gnull · 1791140915 · focus · HN ↗

                                    [dead]

                                    1. neoromantique · 1791142036 · focus · HN ↗

                                       &gt;I see nothing controversial in the quote you give

                                       Yes, I know, I read your comment history. Bye.

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