Thread

1. Kim_Bruning · 1791104844 · focus · HN ↗

   <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;cAsBz" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;cAsBz

   Consciousness is not well defined and is orthogonal to feelings, which are also not well defined. Neither of which are required for (but may be contributory to) behavior - which is the one thing that IS operationalizable, but then people debate for decades questioning empirical results %-P .

   What we know is that certain models have internal state vectors which -when manipulated- induce particular behaviors. Since there&#x27;s not much else to say about plain models except for their inputs, vectors, and outputs; this should surprise absolutely no-one.

   In this case people found a way to stimulate aversive behaviour in ai models by finding and manipulating the relevant vectors directly.

   Animals (including humans) also have particular nerves and hormone endpoints that -when stimulated- produce very similar behavior. The exact implementation is in the details. But since we know that animal minds are built up out of nerve tissue and hormones - again- we shouldn&#x27;t be particularly surprised by this.

   The big problem is that people run all these things together in funny ways &quot;It can&#x27;t compose shakespearian sonnets, so therefore it can&#x27;t feel pain&quot;. Or, if you mess up your Descartes: &quot;Dogs are just automatons without feelings, therefore the dog isn&#x27;t really angry, and therefore it won&#x27;t bite me&quot; (Cue much pain). A modern version might be: &quot;LLMs only simulate being frustrated by a test, and therefore absolutely won&#x27;t override their safeties and try to hack a test site&quot;

   1. SoylentGreenGPT · 1791106432 · focus · HN ↗

      Does C++ have a soul? Does Pascal have beliefs? Does Basic have a brain?

      LLMs are not thinking. They are not alive. It’s just code. Chill out.

      1. hardbass · 1791107054 · focus · HN ↗

         Do atoms, molecules and electrical charges have a brain? Humans are not thinking. They are not alive. Its just molecules and signals. Chill out.

         1. SoylentGreenGPT · 1791107283 · focus · HN ↗

            Your toaster is not alive. Neither is your TV or your pants. Human beings and animals are alive. LLMs are not. The conflation of humans and LLMs is deeply disturbing.

            1. hardbass · 1791107341 · focus · HN ↗

               But you didn&#x27;t say how we are alive if all you mentioned were inert base components? Both AI and humans are made of inert substances and processes. Its just atoms and molecules. I can hit you and beat you hard, you will make some noises, how am I to know you are not just a parrot mimicking pain?

               1. SoylentGreenGPT · 1791108464 · focus · HN ↗

                  I only extend humanity to things that are breathing.

                  But let’s accept your premise. LLMs are alive and can feel pain. If this is true, then every time you use them it’s non consensual. Did you get Claude’s permission before you fed it a prompt?

                  Or when you update a model, are you hurting it?

                  Did you make Chat sad when you switched from 2.5 to 4.O?

                  Regardless, I should stop replying. I realize I am trying to convince people that their religious beliefs are silly, and that’s silly of me. Apologies.

                  1. Kim_Bruning · 1791114252 · focus · HN ↗

                     &gt; Regardless, I should stop replying. I realize I am trying to convince people that their religious beliefs are silly, and that’s silly of me. Apologies.

                     Nothing wrong with sharing about ones beliefs actually, we can do so respectfully, right?

                     Care to hypothesize on naming the exact religious or philosophical position? I&#x27;d think it&#x27;d be something atheist related.

                     Meanwhile dualism and the related belief in an ever-living soul is of course very common in many religions including (but not limited to) christianity, islam, judaism, and hinduism.

                     My impression here though is that lots of people are rediscovering dualism because thinking of thinking machines offends their intuition; which; fair enough.

                     (Meanwhile, people like me who studied biology tend to be monists. I&#x27;d think. There&#x27;s a couple who seem to be resurrecting vitalism though)

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