Aleph Alpha is just a sad joke by now. The talent isn't there anymore, they never managed to catch up to the other labs, failed to deliver on several projects, and by now are just a cash grab for the investors.
Only if you think in terms of short term gains, but thinking in the long run, doesn't really matter if these models are crap today, all models will eventually be obsolete, unless we plateau hard on every aspect of the tech.
What matters is to have good sovereign models in 5, 10, 20 years time.
I'm curious why you think sovereign models matter that much if open source ones exist (unless that stops at some point). Sovereign model hosting services, yes.
We have lots of capable open weights models, but very few have actual datasets and pipelines open for reproducibility. This is a major issue that even if big companies addressed, policies could well just change, as you also acknowledge.
Society can't depend on the whims of the private sector.
> Society can't depend on the whims of the private sector.
Yeah we can, we do it all the time. Nothing in society works without relying on private actors to keep doing what they have always done. Unless you go full soviet command economy, which in fact works worse.
Society and the private sector cooperates, but any technical dependency is detrimental because of monopolization of interests. You don't need to go full soviet, but knowledge in general must be socialized, that includes access to technology.
We literally grant 20 year monopolies on technologies to their inventors and have for centuries and it's fine. The entire economy runs on chips made by like, 3 foundries using lithography machines made by 1 company. I think you are overstating the necessity.
Autarky would be a national security disaster manifested. You can't be a modern prosperous society and not rely on either trade nor private enterprise.
Yes, society in general shouldn't, what I meant to say is that democratic society can't, otherwise it'll devolve invariably into an oligarchy.
Just open weights are not enough, I think as a nation state you'd at least want a whole sovereign training pipeline. Otherwise you are stuck when Kimi K4 stops releasing their weights.
But I don't see why this needs to be done on a state-by-state level, a sovereign EU model seems to be much more realistic in terms of funding.
While an intriguing concept, that doesn't sound like it could scale to the amount of "cores" needed to do the work. Or am I missing something?
You want to, of course. There are several multi-billion dollar programs to subsidize fabs starting european offshoots. But so far not very successful, and it's not like one endeavour is blocking the other here.
Open weight and -source models aren't without biases. Giving a model away for free would be a good way to distribute an agenda. With a sovereign model you can at least control the agenda and align it with your values.
Like it or not, AI has become part of modern warfare and well as part of the surveillance state (good for crime fighting, not for privacy), so it is an important part of national security, and you'd prefer to be as much self-sufficient for that as you can be.
Not all needs are going to be met by using or finetuning general purpose models, so ability to build your own SOTA ML models (LLMs or not) is also important.
Because if you can't build the model from scratch you don't have a model. Open weights are nice but fixed in time. This isn't a technology that stays static, it improves, and sovereignty means being able to continue to improve independently.
For the same reason it didn't matter whether coach makers were able to build carriages that went 5% faster when the automobile was introduced, and for the same reason it won't matter if VW and Mercedes are going to improve their EV lineup in the next 5, 10, 20 years time. Their window of opportunity will be long gone and the momentum elsewhere; most probably, the market will even have evolved further by then.
> it won't matter if VW and Mercedes are going to improve their EV lineup in the next 5, 10, 20 years time
I mean, given the fuel prices it would be very nice, alongside more charging infrastructure in the EU. :(
Not to detract from the overall point, though to be honest, it's probably worthwhile to do improvements and refinements with the current technology, even if the future holds something vastly different. Both cause of gaining expertise and also maybe an improvement or two along the way, that might carry forward.
Like I haven't seen many steam locomotives around and for me the difference between saturated steam engines and superheated ones isn't very material in regards to transportation, but the latter is used in modern turbines.
There are many "steam" locomotives around in China and India, but you just don't see them.
Coal is burned and converted to electricity in coal power plants and the electricity is used to move the electric locomotives around.
Even with distribution losses, the thermal efficiency of coal power plant -> electric network -> electric train is much higher then the old steam locomotives (Only about 5% of the potential energy produced by a steam locomotive’s boiler is translated to the wheels in the form of actual driving power.)
Someone mad at this random guy who can't even fix his de domains SSL cert (cloudflare of course) destructively shitting on any efforts at doing something good.
Someone that builds things instead of merely "managing".
Someone pissed by this exact style of default github pfp business-person ruining this country. If they haven't left for SV already, in which case I hope that they will stay there.
And this isn't ad-hominem for lack of factual critic. The personal stuff _is_ the reason. How else do you call out someone driven by ego without mentioning them and their ego?
The guy is only ego. There is no substance to attack.
this is, because it can mean so much stuff that you can't really tell you are calling out their "ego" or just trolling.
Until you can at least open yourself to the possibility that there are better more inviting ways to talk to people online, you'd think this is just the natural way people talk online, but I'd say it's not. It's just an aesthetic choice.
If you truly think that I am the problem deep down in this nested subthread that violates the spirit and letter of the rules of the platform, I have zero faith in the calibration of your perception.
Good, leave faith for God, question everything, but there is room there for improving your communication whether you are ready for this conversation or not
So many assumptions there. For one, I’m absolutely proud to be founding engineer of a German company that’s staying one, and I’m the first to make a stand for European technology. You just won’t get a high five from me for a company that isn’t managed well, does not deliver on their promises, and ultimately doesn’t really serve the goal of European AI independence well.
maybe to have a global market share, but there are plenty of players that picked up pace when they “decided” to build cars (Japan? South Korea? and many more) or electronics. Having a good sovereign model in 10/20 years might not need having the absolute best there is, and perhaps future optimizations will make building one not as prohibitively expensive as it is today. Keeping some sort of homebrew capacity now is definitely better than having none
AI is here to stay - will be around for hundreds/millions of years. Whether company A is a few years ahead of company B is irrelevant. In 10 years time company A, who started the industry, may be gone completely - also irrelevant.
VW EV sales are up in South America, Canada and Europe. It's true that their total global numbers are down, but that's mainly because they lost like 30% in China. Which obviously sucks considering how big the Chinese market is, but then, the Chinese market is it's own sort of thing.
Don't get me wrong, I think your point is valid for a lot of traditional European car brands. Mercedes is certainly one of them which has lost it's "our engines are nicer" brand, but I suspect VW is one of the brands that will do just fine. Especially with the id polo coming out next year.
> Mercedes is certainly one of them which has lost it's "our engines are nicer" brand
Mercedes is doing something interesting with its level 3 DRIVE PILOT. As far as I know, it's the only autonomous driving system/auto pilot on the market that actually takes full legal responsibility for the vehicle and its actions. If you put a new Mercedes in self driving and it crashes, Mercedes takes full liability.
Yes, it currently only goes up to 100 kph and it will buzz you to take over if it can't guarantee prefect safety anymore. But this approach is really the only one I think is interesting. All this self driving shit is worthless to me if I'm still liable in the end. So I respect Mercedes for putting their money where their mouth is.
It's not that talent isn't there anymore. It's that retards are at the helm everywhere and therefore talent is running away the first chance they have.
Sure. The founder has left, massive capital has been pumped into the company without real profits ever materialising, there were reports of spurious connections to local politicians, big contracts for government-cleared AI that never turned into an actually useful product, and the only thing that seems to get wheels turning again is the involvement of Cohere.
As I said elsewhere in this thread, I am a big proponent of European independence and technology, but Aleph Alpha never quite managed to live up to their promises (and potential!) A lot of inertia has been silently fizzled out here, and that's sad.
9dev · · focus · HN ↗
gchamonlive · · focus · HN ↗
What matters is to have good sovereign models in 5, 10, 20 years time.
roncesvalles · · focus · HN ↗
hypfer · · focus · HN ↗
The next thought is culture-specific workflows, requirements etc that are best trained into weights by people that actually understand those needs.
gchamonlive · · focus · HN ↗
Society can't depend on the whims of the private sector.
brainwad · · focus · HN ↗
Yeah we can, we do it all the time. Nothing in society works without relying on private actors to keep doing what they have always done. Unless you go full soviet command economy, which in fact works worse.
gchamonlive · · focus · HN ↗
brainwad · · focus · HN ↗
gchamonlive · · focus · HN ↗
brainwad · · focus · HN ↗
gchamonlive · · focus · HN ↗
<a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49945572">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49945572
ordersofmag · · focus · HN ↗
gchamonlive · · focus · HN ↗
HotHotLava · · focus · HN ↗
But I don't see why this needs to be done on a state-by-state level, a sovereign EU model seems to be much more realistic in terms of funding.
rixed · · focus · HN ↗
DoctorOetker · · focus · HN ↗
The annoying part of optical matrix multiplication is the conversion from electronic to optic and back.
Why not use electron-optics for matrix multiplication and use dynodes for amplification.
pstuart · · focus · HN ↗
HotHotLava · · focus · HN ↗
stefs · · focus · HN ↗
HarHarVeryFunny · · focus · HN ↗
Not all needs are going to be met by using or finetuning general purpose models, so ability to build your own SOTA ML models (LLMs or not) is also important.
mistrial9 · · focus · HN ↗
tensor · · focus · HN ↗
9dev · · focus · HN ↗
KronisLV · · focus · HN ↗
I mean, given the fuel prices it would be very nice, alongside more charging infrastructure in the EU. :(
Not to detract from the overall point, though to be honest, it's probably worthwhile to do improvements and refinements with the current technology, even if the future holds something vastly different. Both cause of gaining expertise and also maybe an improvement or two along the way, that might carry forward.
Like I haven't seen many steam locomotives around and for me the difference between saturated steam engines and superheated ones isn't very material in regards to transportation, but the latter is used in modern turbines.
leonidasrup · · focus · HN ↗
Coal is burned and converted to electricity in coal power plants and the electricity is used to move the electric locomotives around.
Even with distribution losses, the thermal efficiency of coal power plant -> electric network -> electric train is much higher then the old steam locomotives (Only about 5% of the potential energy produced by a steam locomotive’s boiler is translated to the wheels in the form of actual driving power.)
hypfer · · focus · HN ↗
switchbak · · focus · HN ↗
And who are you to be asking such questions?
hypfer · · focus · HN ↗
Someone that builds things instead of merely "managing".
Someone pissed by this exact style of default github pfp business-person ruining this country. If they haven't left for SV already, in which case I hope that they will stay there.
gchamonlive · · focus · HN ↗
hypfer · · focus · HN ↗
> Aleph Alpha is just a sad joke by now.
And this isn't ad-hominem for lack of factual critic. The personal stuff _is_ the reason. How else do you call out someone driven by ego without mentioning them and their ego?
The guy is only ego. There is no substance to attack.
gchamonlive · · focus · HN ↗
this is, because it can mean so much stuff that you can't really tell you are calling out their "ego" or just trolling.
Until you can at least open yourself to the possibility that there are better more inviting ways to talk to people online, you'd think this is just the natural way people talk online, but I'd say it's not. It's just an aesthetic choice.
hypfer · · focus · HN ↗
If you truly think that I am the problem deep down in this nested subthread that violates the spirit and letter of the rules of the platform, I have zero faith in the calibration of your perception.
gchamonlive · · focus · HN ↗
9dev · · focus · HN ↗
switchbak · · focus · HN ↗
Serious projection issues, and anger to boot. Maybe take a walk outside, that was a very silly comment to get so worked up about.
gchamonlive · · focus · HN ↗
mmasu · · focus · HN ↗
HotHotLava · · focus · HN ↗
HarHarVeryFunny · · focus · HN ↗
AI is here to stay - will be around for hundreds/millions of years. Whether company A is a few years ahead of company B is irrelevant. In 10 years time company A, who started the industry, may be gone completely - also irrelevant.
Quothling · · focus · HN ↗
VW EV sales are up in South America, Canada and Europe. It's true that their total global numbers are down, but that's mainly because they lost like 30% in China. Which obviously sucks considering how big the Chinese market is, but then, the Chinese market is it's own sort of thing.
Don't get me wrong, I think your point is valid for a lot of traditional European car brands. Mercedes is certainly one of them which has lost it's "our engines are nicer" brand, but I suspect VW is one of the brands that will do just fine. Especially with the id polo coming out next year.
pbmonster · · focus · HN ↗
Mercedes is doing something interesting with its level 3 DRIVE PILOT. As far as I know, it's the only autonomous driving system/auto pilot on the market that actually takes full legal responsibility for the vehicle and its actions. If you put a new Mercedes in self driving and it crashes, Mercedes takes full liability.
Yes, it currently only goes up to 100 kph and it will buzz you to take over if it can't guarantee prefect safety anymore. But this approach is really the only one I think is interesting. All this self driving shit is worthless to me if I'm still liable in the end. So I respect Mercedes for putting their money where their mouth is.
solenoid0937 · · focus · HN ↗
gchamonlive · · focus · HN ↗
[dead]
rjzzleep · · focus · HN ↗
smokel · · focus · HN ↗
9dev · · focus · HN ↗
As I said elsewhere in this thread, I am a big proponent of European independence and technology, but Aleph Alpha never quite managed to live up to their promises (and potential!) A lot of inertia has been silently fizzled out here, and that's sad.