I've never understood what niche Orion is supposed to fill. People who value privacy would be more likely to use an open-source browser. Firefox and Brave already serve that purpose. Maybe it's less important to Mac users, but on Linux, a proprietary browser is a major deal-breaker for most people. Plus, it's less convenient if the browser isn't simply included in the repository as a result. Orion should have been developed as open source from the start, with community involvement. Kagi can still benefit from this, though, by serving as the default search engine in exchange for funding the development, and by having the Kagi Assistant directly integrated into the platform.
Anecdotally, the niche it solved for me for a while was "Safari for optimal performance on mac, but with proper extensions like ublock".
I used it regularly for almost a year, eventually got off because of some UI bugs that came up and because the Safari dev tools feel so clunky/need relearning compared to Chrome & FF.
I’ve been using it on iOS since it’s near inception and I can report that it is much more stable now than it was since its original release. I tried to live on the desktop browser, however, and eventually had to declare it unusable and switch back to Firefox. Mostly around things like 1Password and similar extensions being pretty broken in the Orion desktop browser.
I've been paying for kagi since it came out, use linux on my laptop and lineaege on my phone, and I don't use Orion.
In other words, as you say, exactly.
I have no idea if it's a good or bad or I'd like it or not. I never even considered trying. I don't mind that it exists. I don't think kagi are doing anything bad with it. But I also just have no interest in even trying it. Presumably it's good for soneone but for me (a paying kagi customer linux user) it's almost like it's invisible. A probably benign, utterly uninteresting thing.
I don't use any of their AI features either. I hope they cost extra seperately so that I'm not paying for that stuff I'm not using but I suspect I probably am.
The AI is pretty benign, too. They offer diverse models and they make it as privacy-preserving as possible, considering you can opt to use closed models. They are very open about training and retention: <a href="https://help.kagi.com/kagi/ai/llms-privacy.html" rel="nofollow">https://help.kagi.com/kagi/ai/llms-privacy.html. An interesting note there on models served by OpenAI: "The Assistant does not include a unique user identifier for these requests." I don't know if you can trust OpenAI, but Kagi is at least doing its part.
Also, All the AI integration into the product is gated by a single setting.
having written a few extensions... they are basically the same API with a few differences you need to account for. there's polyfills that can unify the experience a bit more too.
I used it on iOS for ad blocking until uBlock's release <a href="https://apps.apple.com/pl/app/ublock-origin-lite/id6745342698">https://apps.apple.com/pl/app/ublock-origin-lite/id674534269...
On Mac, a non Safari browser that moves faster, allows chrome extensions and more customizability. I stopped using it because they refused to implement DNS over HTTP, handwaving it as "use what the OS already gives you".
Firefox fits that description aside obviously from Chrome extensions, is there something inherently more appealing about the Chrome API? Didn't they just sunset it and replace it with some crippled version that can't even support a decent ad-blocker anyway? I know of a few commercial products that only offer a Chrome extension I guess, but I would consider that those product's problems.
I don't use chrome either, I am using safari as the least problematic option.
I think firefox is not even trying. It feels bloated to me, there was a recent update that added some gradient, because that is exactly what users needed from the roadmap. A Gradient.
In addition to what other have said about extensions, ad blocking, no telemetry, and some nice features like tab management, it works in the Apple ecosystem. If you use a mac and an iphone, you get the native sync services for history, bookmarks, passwords, etc. Makes sense that they're focusing on that.
Developing internally initially, as opposed to making it open source, was probably the only practical way for a small team with a specific goal to get there. I don't see any problem turning it over to community development for secondary platforms. If it gets adoption, great. If it fizzles out on linux and windows, nothing is lost.
Chromium-based browsers actually have had better battery life than Safari for 2 years (!) now[0]. And perform better. Which is a real egg on Apple's face.
The only reason to use Safari is because you're knee-deep in the Apple ecosystem, otherwise something like Chrome, Edge or Brave just makes more sense.
> But this is not to tell every Safari user that they are irrational or wrong in any way for using Safari over Chrome (or any other browser, for that matter). Does Safari use more battery than Chrome? In these tasks it sure seems to, but it’s not by a massive amount, potentially costing you about 0.5% of your battery life every hour. Is that enough for you to switch browsers if you prefer Safari’s UI or reliability or privacy options? I suspect not.
The point is moreso that Chrome being a battery hog is a myth.
Safari is less private than Brave and does not have the breadth of extension that Chromium browsers (and Firefox) do. So again, the only reason to really choose Safari is if you're completely in the Apple ecosystem.
Afaict the niche they attempted to fill is the one Firefox already fills on desktop, a highly customizable browser with extension support. (Firefox does not support extensions on iOS, apparently has no plans to do so, and as I understand the support is somewhat limited on Android as well). I switched for about a year because they delivered what seemed like a serious effort at that with their initial release. After seeing basically zero effort at addressing very fundamental bugs in that support in that year, I switched back. As far as I’m concerned their battle is already lost.
The iOS codebase is the only one that potentially has any value to the OSS community; this kind of "enjoy our garbage!" source release really irks me.
I don't get the impression Mozilla puts much effort into Firefox on macOS - whether its performance, or fitting in UX wise. So it's nice to have another browser on macOS that can run uBo.
Browser diversity is a good thing. We've seen what happens when one huge monopoly dominates the browser landscape. Twice now, first with IE and then Chrome.
I use Orion because it's not a product of Apple or Google. There's no reason the browser should be a product of the same company who made the OS.
> a proprietary browser is a major deal-breaker
If this was a real issue for most, people would look at Google closing up Android and shipping laptops that are locked to the Play Store and refuse to have anything to do with Chrome or Chromium.
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TheCapeGreek · · focus · HN ↗
I used it regularly for almost a year, eventually got off because of some UI bugs that came up and because the Safari dev tools feel so clunky/need relearning compared to Chrome & FF.
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Brian_K_White · · focus · HN ↗
In other words, as you say, exactly.
I have no idea if it's a good or bad or I'd like it or not. I never even considered trying. I don't mind that it exists. I don't think kagi are doing anything bad with it. But I also just have no interest in even trying it. Presumably it's good for soneone but for me (a paying kagi customer linux user) it's almost like it's invisible. A probably benign, utterly uninteresting thing.
I don't use any of their AI features either. I hope they cost extra seperately so that I'm not paying for that stuff I'm not using but I suspect I probably am.
ibejoeb · · focus · HN ↗
Also, All the AI integration into the product is gated by a single setting.
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I'd love to support Orion, but I can't because I don't have a practical way to run it.
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Don’t get me wrong, options are always a good thing!
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This is not gonna work because Kagi is not free to use
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So, in my opinion, there wasn’t a really good reason to wait for uBlock to land on Apple’s platform.
The ad blocking aspect never seemed like a flagship reason to use Orion if you ask me.
Some of the other features are.
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ibejoeb · · focus · HN ↗
Developing internally initially, as opposed to making it open source, was probably the only practical way for a small team with a specific goal to get there. I don't see any problem turning it over to community development for secondary platforms. If it gets adoption, great. If it fizzles out on linux and windows, nothing is lost.
shakow · · focus · HN ↗
For me, as battery-efficient as Safari, but with better chrome and access to ffox extensions ecosystem.
jorvi · · focus · HN ↗
The only reason to use Safari is because you're knee-deep in the Apple ecosystem, otherwise something like Chrome, Edge or Brave just makes more sense.
[0]<a href="https://birchtree.me/blog/everyone-says-chrome-devastates-mac-battery-life-but-does-it-i-tested-for-36-hours-to-find-out/" rel="nofollow">https://birchtree.me/blog/everyone-says-chrome-devastates-ma...
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jorvi · · focus · HN ↗
Safari is less private than Brave and does not have the breadth of extension that Chromium browsers (and Firefox) do. So again, the only reason to really choose Safari is if you're completely in the Apple ecosystem.
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shakow · · focus · HN ↗
Granted, I used Vivaldi rather than Chromium, but I don't expect it to have such a noticeable difference w.r.t. Chrome.
ghostly_s · · focus · HN ↗
The iOS codebase is the only one that potentially has any value to the OSS community; this kind of "enjoy our garbage!" source release really irks me.
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I use Orion because it's not a product of Apple or Google. There's no reason the browser should be a product of the same company who made the OS.
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If this was a real issue for most, people would look at Google closing up Android and shipping laptops that are locked to the Play Store and refuse to have anything to do with Chrome or Chromium.