Thread

ICC judge on what U.S. sanctions mean for her and global courts

229 points · 173 comments · rbanffy

msdz · 1790961668 · focus · HN ↗
Regardless of what one personally thinks about the ICC, this isn’t a good look for neither the US nor Europe.
For the U.S., because sanctioning an “unpleasant”, but in essence harmless individual (geopolitically speaking) is ridiculous. Falling victim to de-banking alone can really ruin one’s life.
And for the EU, because it once again showcases the dependence on U.S. systems for just about anything tech-related in everyday life and work.
1. nostrademons · 1790963177 · focus · HN ↗
  It undermines the idea of the U.S. as a neutral arbiter for law, order, and free commerce. That may always have been a fiction, but it's a very useful fiction because it underpins U.S. soft power. It's much easier to get consent for being the world hegemon when you act like a benevolent, disinterested hegemon. Once you start becoming a participant - and overriding other institutions that are ostensibly providing neutral, impartial justice just because their decisions are inconvenient for you - you are essentially placing yourself below them and undermining your own legitimacy.
  Neutrality and objectivity may be a fiction, but it's one of the most useful fictions that have been invented in the last 500 years.
  1. jfengel · 1790963945 · focus · HN ↗
    America has apparently decided that the fiction is no longer useful. At least not to us.
    I can't say I'm happy about that, but it's a fact now. We cannot put that genie back in the bottle. Even a change of leadership soon will not alter the realization that it can change back on a moment's notice.
    So... we will find out.
    laimewhisps · 1790964089 · focus · HN ↗
    I think we will come to realize that liberalism died in Gaza. It exposed all of the hypocrisy that had always been there, it was just hidden under a mask of propaganda. Exposure to the raw events on social media allowed people to see the difference between what was happening and what we were being told. The mask came off and it's not going back on.
    anramon · 1790965100 · focus · HN ↗
    Less than "liberalism" I'd say "westernism". Liberalism out of direct western influence it's pretty much in line with what liberalism is supposed to be.
    mschuster91 · 1790967261 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    mindslight · 1790967816 · focus · HN ↗
    Hamas did expect it, just like their kindred warmongering spirits in Israel expect further retaliation. However, Palestinian civilians most certainly did not deserve it.
    slowin · 1790967990 · focus · HN ↗
    The Right to resist is a well-known cornerstone of liberalism, and yes Israel has been chipping away at it since its formation and Nakba.
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_resist" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_resist
    Sabinus · 1790979959 · focus · HN ↗
    The right to resist is not the right to commit deliberate civilian massacres.
    If October 7 had been directed against the West Bank settlers then we could get behind it, but instead it was just Hamas expressing their genocidal intent.
    laimewhisps · 1790981063 · focus · HN ↗
    Occupying forces are not civilians, that being said October 7th was primarily directed at the IDF. That Israel has mandatory conscription and deliberately inhabits stolen Palestinian land doesn't make the victims civilian. That's not even touching on the large number of people in Israel killed by the IDF under the Hannibal Directive. Deaths incorrectly attributed to Hamas:
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive#Claimed_use_of_the_Hannibal_Directive_on_7_October_2023" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive#Claimed_use...
    Cyph0n · 1790981650 · focus · HN ↗
    Firstly, you are aware that Gaza is & was under full blockade, right? And that there is no way to reach the West Bank from Gaza?
    Secondly, I can assure you that you would NOT have gotten behind anything Hamas did. You (not you specifically, just generally) wouldn’t have supported them because you’re conditioned to not support them. You are also more susceptible to propaganda than you think you are, and trust me, the media machine would have been in full gear regardless of what operation Hamas pulled off.
    It is easy to talk about theoreticals, but if you’re missing the ongoing reality, why do you think that you would handle the theoretical scenario any differently? Same idea applies to fiction. People jump to oppose the Empire, but had they been living in the Star Wars universe, odds are that Imperial propaganda would have been extremely effective.
    There is a recent saying on liberals, but I think it applies more broadly: “A liberal is someone who opposes every war except the current war, and supports all civil rights movements except the one that's going on right now.”
    g8oz · 1790968019 · focus · HN ↗
    Did the Palestinian children sniped in the head and chest have it coming as well?
    gamblor956 · 1790968416 · focus · HN ↗
    Did the 500+ teenagers and early-20-something women at the music festival Hamas stormed deserve to be raped, tortured, and murdered?
    mindslight · 1790968937 · focus · HN ↗
    The answer to both of these questions is a resounding "NO". But the question remains of why you have contrasted them as if they are in opposition.
    lossolo · 1790970886 · focus · HN ↗
    What's your point? Are you saying that if you kill my kids then I can kill you, then kill your kids, your wife, your parents, grandparents, their brothers and sisters and their kids? And that's ok and I'm better than you? meaning I'm good and you are evil? or what are you arguing?
    Cyph0n · 1790971509 · focus · HN ↗
    Generally, the point is my people are more valuable than your people. This is how Israel itself is able to maintain the injustice in Gaza and the WB. Heck, the IOF proudly operates under this model: a 1:50 combatant to civilian kill ratio is normal operating procedure.
    They applied the same concept in Iran during the 12 Day War, where they performed “targeted strikes” on apartment buildings housing nuclear scientists and other top officials, while killing 10s of civilians in the process. And then they (unironically) believed that Iranians would rise up against their government instead of rallying around the flag, at least temporarily.
    gamblor956 · 1790976101 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    laimewhisps · 1790976372 · focus · HN ↗
    What are you talking about? Israel spent decades ethnically cleansing Palestinians and they're still doing it, at scale. They had already murdered orders of magnitude more Palestinians than Israelis killed by the IDF and Hamas combined on Oct 7th.
    gamblor956 · 1791046166 · focus · HN ↗
    Ah, so for you this was never really about what's happening right now. This is about the "decades" that Israel has been "ethnically cleansing" a group of people that have been doing their best to wipe out Israel since its formation.
    The antisemites have been making this argument for decades. It's a popular meme on 8chan and the Daily Stormer. The only problem with the claim is that Israel's military actions against Palestine were restrained until Oct 7th. But then again, murdering 1000+ people in cold blood tends to make the survivors do irrational things to the attackers.
    Maybe Palestine should refrain from violent activity for a period of a year, which is longer than either Hamas or the PLO have ever managed to go without launching terrorist attacks against Israel, and we can talk about "peace" in the Middle East.
    laimewhisps · 1791048013 · focus · HN ↗
    Israel was created through ethnic cleansing, this is all very well documented: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
    [deleted] · 1790993088 · focus · HN ↗
    [deleted]
    gamblor956 · 1790968324 · focus · HN ↗
    Exactly. Oct 7th was Israel's 9/11.
    Hamas had the option to attack military targets. Instead they targeted a music festival full of civilians, murdering almost everyone, and raping most of the women there. (For those who doubt, there are a lot of sources. CNN, BBC, Al Jezeera, and even the UN's own fact-finding mission all confirm the rapes and murders.)
    Dylan16807 · 1790973810 · focus · HN ↗
    > Oct 7th was Israel's 9/11.
    And the way the US reacted to 9/11 was an enormous mistake.
    Cyph0n · 1790969886 · focus · HN ↗
    This is a 2024 comment. We are past these talking points.
    Do you know what Israel did and still is doing in Gaza (and the West Bank)? It goes way beyond “retaliation”. A genocidal, algorithmic rampage that spared no one. “Collateral damage” taken to its extreme. It is a testbed for techniques to crush armed liberation movements. For the US in particular, this is how the 2nd amendment can be rendered obsolete.
    I am curious. Would you empathize more if Gaza was a Ukrainian enclave in Russia that tried to break free from its status as a blockaded strip of land? Is the involvement of non-white victims the problem? Perhaps it’s because there are Palestinians involved? Maybe if this were a fictional struggle set in some fictional universe involving some kind of “rebel” group; is that what it takes to spare an ounce of empathy?
    RobotToaster · 1790988427 · focus · HN ↗
    This war was started by Israel in 1948
    mindslight · 1790968673 · focus · HN ↗
    That hypocrisy has been there for decades if you had looked, so it seems wrong to consider the catalyst as being "Gaza" rather than things like increased alternative media from digital communications, influence campaigns, etc. Also you're drastically overstating things by balling it up as "liberalism" rather than say the US-as-hegemon world order.

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