Thread

1. TrackerFF · 1790856519 · focus · HN ↗

   Yeah, people are unfortunately not informed on just how much power border agents wield. Not only in the US, but in many (most I'd believe) other countries, too. I've worked on cases (intel side) where the law-enforcement side would just wait for the surveillance objects to cross the border, as that's where they could do most data collection with the least hassle.

   If for whatever reason you think you're being investigated or surveilled (who knows for what these days, could be enough to just associate with the various protest groups / orgs), you can just assume that the border will be where they'll try to clone / download your data (phones, laptops, whatever)

   1. jwr · 1790859098 · focus · HN ↗

      I'm lucky to live in a country (Poland) where border agents can either let you in, arrest you if there is an arrest warrant, or detain but only with a lawful basis for detention (as in, you are posing a threat to others) and detention may be used only when other measures have proved pointless or ineffective.

      This makes returning to the country nice and pleasant. The border agents never ask you creepy questions like: Where are you going? Where will you be staying? What do you intend to do? (it's what US border agents ask their citizens). They just say hi and let you in.

      1. keiferski · 1790859370 · focus · HN ↗

         Poland border agents do ask why you're visiting. Don't know where you're getting that info.

         1. ryanbrunner · 1790859650 · focus · HN ↗

            The obvious difference between your experiences and the person you're replying to is that he's residing there and you're visiting. You're right that your rights are far more limited when you're a visitor to a country crossing a border, but he and this thread are talking about what rights residents to a country have regarding the border.

            1. philipov · 1790875708 · focus · HN ↗

               Asking why someone is visiting is also pertinent to the border agent's direct job, because different types of visits require different documents, such as a work visa.
         2. orwin · 1790860837 · focus · HN ↗

            At least not if from the EU.
         3. jwr · 1790863467 · focus · HN ↗

            My point was that Polish citizens do not get asked. This is different for Americans. US citizens entering their own country have to answer these bizarre and sometimes creepy questions.

            1. keiferski · 1790863666 · focus · HN ↗

               Yeah, in that case I agree. I didn't realize you only meant Polish citizens.
            2. hdgvhicv · 1790864169 · focus · HN ↗

               I’m British, I entered Britain yesterday morning and didn’t say anything to anyone from leaving the plane to asking for a coffee at Ealing Broadway - it’s all automated. The job of the border is to check you are the person your passport claims to be, which seems reasonable.

               I did have to put my hotel on the landing form when I entered singapore last week but nothing more - again didn’t talk to anyone until checking in at the hotel. In China they did talk to me, asked me if I was there for business or tourism the week before, nothing more.

               I know the US border is perhaps the least friendly border I’ve ever crossed — and that includes going in and out of Gaza, but I assumed that US citizens didn’t get that treatment.

               1. pseudohadamard · 1790914338 · focus · HN ↗

                  Same here, no interaction with border control people apart from them directing you to the passport reader if you look confused, although I did once have a nice chat with an older border control lady who was wondering whether it was worth getting back into IT work because they were desperate for people who still knew COBOL. Time taken to exit the aircraft and clear immigration and get to the luggage carousel is about 5 minutes, most of which is spent walking.

                  +1 for the US border comment, and I've been into East Germany, Russia, and similar countries. And that's not an exaggeration, the US border experience is by far the worst of any country I've ever been to.

            3. stronglikedan · 1790868111 · focus · HN ↗

               I don't understand why they would even bother asking a US citizen who is returning home these questions: Where are you going? Where will you be staying? What do you intend to do?

               Wouldn't everyone just answer, "home", "home", and "go home"? What would even be the point?

               1. kube-system · 1790868328 · focus · HN ↗

                  They ask because people are dumb and say stupid incriminating shit
               2. SirMaster · 1790871689 · focus · HN ↗

                  When I come home I don't even talk to anyone...

                  I just walk through the global entry gate without interacting with anyone...

               3. someonebaggy · 1790872237 · focus · HN ↗

                  Even though the law says they have to let you in eventually, it doesn't say they can't harass you just in case you fall for it. They can also offer you a reward like less harassment if you just comply.

                  1. mrguyorama · 1790878377 · focus · HN ↗

                     The law also says that a cop can't arrest you for no reason but every lawyer will tell you that only means you get a check after the court battle, not that you won't get arrested.

                     "They have to let you in" means that they don't let you in and you might be able to get a payout in court.

                     Nobody at the border has the job of "Force the border agent to let in anyone who is an actual American because they have that right", and nobody holds a gun to the border agent's head if he does not let you in.

                     1. 1718627440 · 1790925727 · focus · HN ↗

                        A society is fundamentally broken if people need to get held a gun to their head, to make them do, what the society has commonly decided they should do. That simply doesn't scale. You might be able to do that for a few fallen individuals, but not for load bearing ones.

                        1. icantevenhold · 1790938159 · focus · HN ↗

                           Every society - like any other sufficiently complex system - is operating in a constant state of brokenness. Societies are dynamic, with components (organizational, human, technical) failing and being replaced continuously.

                           1. someonebaggy · 1790940909 · focus · HN ↗

                              All are broken, some are more broken than others.
                           2. 1718627440 · 1790943353 · focus · HN ↗

                              Broken in the sense of not sustainable, faulty in principle, might lead to further demise, or failure. Not as in there are issues, not everything is optimal.

                              1. icantevenhold · 1791025053 · focus · HN ↗

                                 On a long enough timeline nothing is sustainable; it just depends on when it breaks down. I think society can go on like this for a long long time
               4. sidewndr46 · 1790877951 · focus · HN ↗

                  I've had border agents repeatedly ask me my citizenship and where I was born at

                  1. palmotea · 1790880057 · focus · HN ↗

                     > I've had border agents repeatedly ask me my citizenship and where I was born at

                     Why? Your passport is literally proof of both those things.

                     1. clort · 1790882617 · focus · HN ↗

                        There may be a difference between the passport you are presenting, and your passport. Until the border agent determines that those are equivalent, you are not necessarily who you say you are.
               5. moate · 1790879137 · focus · HN ↗

                  >>I don't understand why they would even bother asking a US citizen who is returning home these questions...

                  Racial profiling for one. Also "citizen" and "natural born citizen" getting treated differently for another.

               6. jjav · 1790930396 · focus · HN ↗

                  > What would even be the point?

                  The point is harassment, and trying to trick you into some perceived lie so they can detain you. The US is friendly like that.

            4. WalterBright · 1790876871 · focus · HN ↗

               Last month I returned to the US. My experience with passport control was I stood in front of a camera and a photo was taken, and the light turned green, and I went through. No questions, no interaction with passport staff.

               The fastest I've ever gotten through passport control.

               1. pyreko · 1790888358 · focus · HN ↗

                  I had this experience at YYZ once in like 2024 at preclearance (Canadian on a TN), it was very nice, didn't even have to hand over my passport. It went away at some point though and I haven't experienced it since...

                  Also I guess while we're sharing experiences returning home, at least for US -> YYZ I just fill out info at the self-guided kiosks. Officers just say hi, glance at the receipt and mark it, and I'm done. Never been asked anything so far.

            5. palmotea · 1790879979 · focus · HN ↗

               > My point was that Polish citizens do not get asked. This is different for Americans. US citizens entering their own country have to answer these bizarre and sometimes creepy questions.

               It's not like I kept a list or anything, but as an American, I don't think I've ever been asked questions like "Where are you going? Where will you be staying? What do you intend to do?" by border control when returning to the US.

               I distinctly recall having been asked questions about where I'm coming from, like "Do you have any X"? (where X is legal and common in a country I visited, but illegal in the US).

               1. kevin_thibedeau · 1790883264 · focus · HN ↗

                  They're on the lookout for criminal activity. I transited lower Ontario with empty containers for a completed move between states. That can look like smuggling to the guards and you get more probing questions.
               2. eks391 · 1790906318 · focus · HN ↗

                  I am a US citizen who has left the States a small handful of times. I received probing questions twice while crossing the USA-CAN border (which I have crossed ~6 times), once where the agent got angry with me because apparently I wasn't answering/following her directions well enough, and the other time the agent seemed to just be following a protocol. The only other time I was questioned was on my way to Iran, but everyone was getting questioned. That flight was delayed by over 3 hours too.

                  I do not look like an immigrant or other marginalized group that stereotypically gets extra attention at borders. I know the difference, because my (American) brother-in-law gets 'randomly selected' everywhere for the misfortune of having Arabic ancestry.

                  1. brailsafe · 1790913303 · focus · HN ↗

                     I'm a CAD citizen and usually have an easy time driving into the states, but have been searched or pulled aside twice. Flying in is always easier. Crossing back into Canada, Iirc I've been searched 4 times. It's usually a routine thing because I'm often crossing back in at strange times alone.
            6. giancarlostoro · 1790913636 · focus · HN ↗

               Depends... I've come back to the US without being asked a single question.
      2. WesolyKubeczek · 1790859808 · focus · HN ↗

         But if you are from outside the EU, it’s tad different.
      3. ShinyLeftPad · 1790860057 · focus · HN ↗

         Strongly depends where you're from. I know of people who were turned around.

         1. LtWorf · 1790861749 · focus · HN ↗

            Did they have a valid passport?

            1. ShinyLeftPad · 1790871413 · focus · HN ↗

               Yes

               1. LtWorf · 1790885447 · focus · HN ↗

                  Was it going to expire soon? Did they lack a visa?

                  1. ShinyLeftPad · 1790940731 · focus · HN ↗

                     no, the problem was that they additionally had a russian passport.
      4. OroPla · 1790878461 · focus · HN ↗

         If you are part of the EU and move to countries that are also part or at least have strong ties your experience on the border can still differ a whole lot.

         I've been traveling during high alert corona times where you had to carry extra corona related paperwork or at least that was the official message, but at the border no one even asked for your passport. There were a lot more people at the border but a lot less interest in getting close.

         Then at more normal times border agents wanted to know nearly everything about what was in the car. Sometimes you have to drive through a scanner and sometimes they just wish you a happy day or not even talk to you.

         It's mostly chance, but no one ever wanted my phone, so far.

      5. RyJones · 1790880333 · focus · HN ↗

         This is completely counter to my recent-ish experience. Over the last two years I've entered Poland... 14 times? and over time, the experience has gotten more intrusive.

         1. kazinator · 1790881319 · focus · HN ↗

            Could it be because of the war going on next door?

            1. RyJones · 1790910441 · focus · HN ↗

               Yes? The claim: the Polish border is easy. My counterclaim: no it is not.

               1. tremon · 1790932762 · focus · HN ↗

                  That was not the original claim. The original claim was "border agents never ask creepy questions to returning Polish citizens".
      6. kuramori · 1790881298 · focus · HN ↗

         > Where are you going? Where will you be staying? What do you intend to do? (it's what US border agents ask their citizens)

         Recently you don't even have to get your passport out of the bag, nevermind talking to anybody - you just stroll through the gate. They know who you are via facial recognition (which is creepy in its own right). But how would you know that, tovarisch mayor, your metoditchka was written a long time ago.

         1. mmmlinux · 1790886002 · focus · HN ↗

            Yeah I realized after I got home that I flew from London to DC recently, and I didn't show my passport once. I liked the stamps...
      7. galkk · 1790890863 · focus · HN ↗

         Polish border agents told me (Ukrainian, first time to Poland) to speak to them in polish language when they were checking my documents some years ago, so YMMV.

         1. abc123abc123 · 1790891931 · focus · HN ↗

            Polish police and border agents are absolutely disgusting. They come straight from the soviet union. Avoid at all cost. I certainly wont be going back to poland any time soon. At least not by air.
      8. MiroslavPokorny · 1790915452 · focus · HN ↗

         Its funny for a country obsessed with efficiency, the US border agents ask questions that are completely pointless and never verified and simply a waste of time.

         1. ndsipa_pomu · 1790943759 · focus · HN ↗

            The questions are more a means of judging whether you're nervous or behaving suspiciously. The actual answers are irrelevant unless they're especially bizarre.

            1. MiroslavPokorny · 1790982320 · focus · HN ↗

               Might as well go back to judging a person on the shape of their skull or tea leaves.

               1. ndsipa_pomu · 1791018398 · focus · HN ↗

                  Not really as those aren't situational. If you start asking someone ordinary questions and they appear especially nervous then it's probably that they have something to hide and combined with other things (e.g. big heavy coat in hot weather) might tip off the security people.

                  1. MiroslavPokorny · 1791077341 · focus · HN ↗

                     Many people are nervous because they have poor local language skills.

                     Nerves are not a measure of someone's guilt of anything. Life is a bit more complicated than that. Im sure we are aware of many world leaders who lie quite confidently and your trap would never catch them.

                     1. ndsipa_pomu · 1791111205 · focus · HN ↗

                        I agree - it's not a perfect test, but it is easy to implement and costs nothing extra. I suppose it's more likely to catch those people who have been coerced into carrying something illicit rather than experienced smugglers who do it all the time.

                        It's not used to establish guilt, but to establish whether the person is worth further examination, so false positives (e.g. due to language difficulties) would just lead to either further interviewing or searching.

                        There's not really any good reason to not do it as the questions are not overly intrusive.

                        1. MiroslavPokorny · 1791155232 · focus · HN ↗

                           Your statement it costs nothing is completely untrue.

                           Firstly the staff would need training to effectively ask the right questions and interpret the responses.

                           Asking the public questions cost time. If you have two lines and one does the required checks and the other also asks questions and conversations happen, the later will be slower.

                           Slower lines means more staff are required.

                           1. ndsipa_pomu · 1791180643 · focus · HN ↗

                              It doesn't seem to me as though it would require a huge amount of extra training - they're just ordinary questions about where someone is going and the reason for the trip.

                              The questions are usually asked at the same time as passport checks are performed so I doubt it takes much longer at all.

      9. orloffm · 1790938821 · focus · HN ↗

         They do ask where are you going and where you will be staying, even if you have a permanent residence permit. Depends on your passport.
      10. pfannkuchen · 1790960762 · focus · HN ↗

          Are you sure that US border agents ask this? I don't recall ever being asked this when reentering the US as a citizen. They may ask where I went, but never where I'm going within the US or what I'm doing there. Not sure if my experience isn't representative?

          1. jwr · 1790963317 · focus · HN ↗

             Yes, I'm sure. Many, many data points over many years.

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