I've worked a variety of manufacturing jobs; from medical manufacturing of catheters the size of fishing lines with three inner diamters, running 5 story oven stack extrusion lines, laser etching tooth insert threading, and suface coating PTFE into sheet material for military radar and industrial applications, to grunt work factory assembly lines making the rubber gun butts for Ruger.
They all carried serious risks of bodily injury, and some far more so than others - but this is what's crazy to consider: the difference in wages we are talking is no more than $3 per hour. Meaning, that grunt work where you could lose your hand to a steel injection mold was $9, the teflon coating job where someone working third shift on the machine I ran was struck in the skull with the peg-end of a steel 72+ inch roller pin holding a full 300 yard roll of coated fabric, nearly (millimeters from), resulting in her having a steel plate surgically placed - that position paid a whopping $12 in 2014.
I've worked as a line cook, over 5 years, and as a driver, 6 years. None of these paid well, and all are inherent of risks. It's always seemed silly to me when you zoom out of this picture and see it like this; the more your job pays the less it exposes you to physical harm.
>It's always seemed silly to me when you zoom out of this picture and see it like this; the more your job pays the less it exposes you to physical harm.
I've worked physical labor too, though never in a factory. More like lugging baggage and cleaning toilets. Still, people got hurt doing it, especially over a lifetime of labor.
It comes down to rarity of skill. Not to be to crass about it, but when your primary value is that you're willing to put yourself in physical harm, the market for your offering has a lot more supply than demand.
For example, I spend a lot of time in hotels when I was young. Just finding people who were reliable and trustworthy and legal enough to drive the airport van without wrecking it were like 1 in 10 of the people who were potentially eligible to do it. If you were able to do rudimentary math and not steal from the till, you were one of the "lucky" few who got to work at the front desk. If you showed up regularly, well, the world was your oyster.
> Still, people got hurt doing it, especially over a lifetime of labor.
The number of programmers I know with back issues like herniated discs is larger than those without. It's a different risk, no doubt, but it's real nevertheless.
Most if not all programmers certainly would have the time to do stretching, gymnastic, sport - develop and maintain the right muscles and take brakes when needed. Most are just too lazy.
A guy breaking his back on a construction site does not have this choice - if the job requires him to lift heavier things than he safely can carry - then his only real choice is to quit.
Of for fucks sake, this comment is so backwards, it reminds me of an ex of mine who refused to brush his teeth because doing so caused his gums to bleed.
But you usually won't get Sciatica if you exercise.
And I luckily had not had so many company office jobs, but in those I had, I absolutely could stand up and walk around and do some stretching if I needed it. And even in the worst coding monkey enslavement camps, you can probably have toilet breaks.
You seem to have this weird thing where a work related injury which makes it difficult to exercise is clearly only solved by - exercising. Which they can’t effectively do while injured.
Sure, if everyone did yoga before getting injured maybe they’d never get injured.
But if they’re injured, what exactly do you think their options are here?
You seem to be projecting a unrelated problem your ex had onto everyone. This isn’t bloody gums.
And notably, you could 90% tell the computer workers at the climbing gym by the anterior pelvic tilt - and yoga only did so much.
"You seem to be projecting a unrelated problem your ex had onto everyone. This isn’t bloody gums."
I have never said anything about my ex. And you seem not interested in the original argument - exercise before your body is messed up due to physical inactivity is usually possible.
If it is too late, it is too late.
> guy breaking his back on a construction site does not have this choice - if the job requires him to lift heavier things than he safely can carry - then his only real choice is to quit.
Or to build muscle to avoid the issues. I know it first hand, herniated disks and no working out while people who do work out turn out ok. Gene and other variance to be taken into account.
Heavy physical labor with no place for rest and stretches in between is however much better at messing you up, than a work when you can pause every 15 min and do 60s of stretching. + Do 5 min of yoga before and after work. + A standing desk to stand 15min per hour. + A HÅG Capisco style chair that forces you to change position every 10 minutes (it's somewhat uncomfortable), but due to its build, allows like 4-5 different positions out of the box.
I'd like you to show up on site and let everyone with shoulder and back issues (which is everyone) that you've cracked the case wide open and it's their own fault.
It's wild sometimes the level of man child bubble the average HN poster lives in.
In order to do everything needed so that no one calls you lazy, the day would need 80hous.
Otherwise said, if you called a hard working guy who also cooks and spends time with kids lazy, because they also did not do yet another optional activity on the regular, maybe you should not.
Hey, mentioned it above, assuming your making $80k, it's a one time cost of non expensive standing desk and ergonomic chair, plus 5 minutes of workout before and after work. And stretching brakes during.
Those 15 min is actually quite a lot if you don't have the habit yet. But you're in a better situation than someone working at a slaughter line, with no time to scratch your nose for 2h15min in between brakes not long enough to eat, use bathroom and sharpen your knives for the next 2h15min run.
I still feel sorry for your herniated disk, I don't think it's just your laziness, but more ignorance and equally lazy ignorant surroundings normalizing unhealthy lifestyle.
But you can't say someone that can get up and stretch for 30s every 15 min has it as bad as people running to the toilet and eating by swallowing big bites just to make it in time before the next animal comes to their position in line.
I did not call you lazy, or a hard working guy with kids and no time, but specifically those IT guys who I know, who definitely have a unhealthy lifestyle and do not care about their health as much as they could (or rather not at all, until it is too late).
So I could have probably made it more clear that my judgement was not absolute, but anecdotally. But I have seen many IT guys.
Of course it does. It alone does not make you a body builder, but compare the average person who does regular cooking with those who do not but eat fast food.
Neither does the police stop murders from happening, but if your employer demands you haul around 50 kg of bricks around by hand, you have legal recourse.
No, especially with stress, even carrying relative light things can cause lasting damage with one moment of not paying attention. Nevermind all the other dangerous things. Also I thought laws were tough for safety in germany, but they restaurated a big railway bridge right next to where I lived (years ling project) - and they worked even in icy, windy conditions with fog. You know those fog, that combined with freezing conditions will cover everything with a slipery wet ice layer. And this with heavy wind. No wonder people literally died there in accidents. (And officially this was not mentioned ever, DB rather celebrated themself for this project often. It was mostly east europeans working there).
Injuries happen most often because the rules or best practices weren’t followed (ignored safety to meet unrealistic quota, cut corners to leave work early, and why not, sometimes just being lazy, etc.) and less often because of some really unexpected condition (invisible defect in the safety equipment).
The difference between office and construction workers is that the former probably have more control over the situation but the damage is so slow they only realize too late, while the latter have too little control most times even if they are acutely aware of the immediate risk. They are the people who can’t afford to protest, lose the job, go to court, etc. and usually the informal requirements are shaped in such a way that in the end it looks like their own decision to forego safety concerns.
But an office worker can be under similar pressure to deliver day after day, and ruin their muscles, spine, eyes, joints, psyche in the process. Just less abruptly.
Indeed, but about the exact case I talked about - I doubt the construction workers were fine with going to work in those conditions but they were pushed into it (they were behind schedule). I am a climber - and icy windy foggy conditions are not when it is safe to be in heights.
And that was my point, a office worker can get stressed a lot - but when they make a misstake they have to compile again(and maybe consider quitting), not go to the graveyard, because they fell to death.
Otherwise sure, heart attacks can happen as well. And burn out is real, too. But the work itself is not physically dangerous.
I was the Health and Safety Representative at a previous job site, with a lot of different nationalities. Of course I can't generalise all of them, but I noticed that eastern europeans usually had way more disregard for job safety than Danes. There was one guy from Hungary especially who I had to reprimand at least weekly for doing stupid acrobatic shit on ladders. And we usually weren't even under time pressure, he just had barely any regard for his own safety. It was maddening. I would have fired him if I had authority to do so.
Maybe so, but at this site they did not even stopped working for the day, after a deadly accident happened. I assumed they do and do a proper investigation how it could happen, but nope. Body was removed and work proceeded.
In the US if you aren't union (which most people aren't) you will be fired and blacklisted by anybody and everybody if they find out you called OSHA. And if you are union they will probably be pissed you didn't contact the union first. It also likely won't result in any real changes, just some paltry fine and pissed off lead men. The exploted worker themselves will likely take a lot of the financial hit. (wages theft in the US dwarves all other theft combined)
Atleast half of trade jobs in the US expect you to break OSHA and labor laws regularly as part of the job. If you don't there are enough other desperate people to replace you.
Lazy is not a very nice way of putting it, but I would urge anyone without a simple stretching routine to develop one.
Five to ten minutes a few times a week, and I've not had a back problem in years.
It's a simple and easy way to keep a healthy baseline. Good for all sorts of physical and mental issues. I feel like shit if I've not done them for a while.
> Five to ten minutes a few times a week, and I've not had a back problem in years.
It helps, no doubt.
But it's not bullet proof either. A buddy of mine, very active guy, runner, cyclist, rower, tennis, swimmer, works out 10x a week, hikes 2 weeks in the rockies every summer. If anybody knows about warmup and stretching and all that, it's him. Has been a programmer for 20 years. Herniated disc took him out a year ago, still recovering.
When I had no exercise routine, my back acted up. I think distilling it into laziness is, well, a lazy take on it. It’s very hard to make proactive actions and work off delayed gratification. Especially when you are in pain. Pain is often all encompassing and you can’t perform long term thinking, and when you are out of pain (laying in bed) then you are just so happy to be relieved. It’s hard
You do have some choice on a construction site. Physical activity depletes nutrients. You can choose to replenish them. Strength and obesity is also a choice.
I once had a coworker 24 years old but he barely ate and barely slept. In a few years he has injuries everywhere that didn't go away.
One guy I know fell down 10 meters onto his back then got up and went back to work. He looks exactly like someone like that.
I've met a surprising number of manual laborers who seemed to believe you can build or repair something without materials.
Much like office workers who think ergonomics is something that comes after ruining your body.
sans_souse · · focus · HN ↗
They all carried serious risks of bodily injury, and some far more so than others - but this is what's crazy to consider: the difference in wages we are talking is no more than $3 per hour. Meaning, that grunt work where you could lose your hand to a steel injection mold was $9, the teflon coating job where someone working third shift on the machine I ran was struck in the skull with the peg-end of a steel 72+ inch roller pin holding a full 300 yard roll of coated fabric, nearly (millimeters from), resulting in her having a steel plate surgically placed - that position paid a whopping $12 in 2014.
I've worked as a line cook, over 5 years, and as a driver, 6 years. None of these paid well, and all are inherent of risks. It's always seemed silly to me when you zoom out of this picture and see it like this; the more your job pays the less it exposes you to physical harm.
timr · · focus · HN ↗
I've worked physical labor too, though never in a factory. More like lugging baggage and cleaning toilets. Still, people got hurt doing it, especially over a lifetime of labor.
It comes down to rarity of skill. Not to be to crass about it, but when your primary value is that you're willing to put yourself in physical harm, the market for your offering has a lot more supply than demand.
For example, I spend a lot of time in hotels when I was young. Just finding people who were reliable and trustworthy and legal enough to drive the airport van without wrecking it were like 1 in 10 of the people who were potentially eligible to do it. If you were able to do rudimentary math and not steal from the till, you were one of the "lucky" few who got to work at the front desk. If you showed up regularly, well, the world was your oyster.
hanibrel · · focus · HN ↗
The number of programmers I know with back issues like herniated discs is larger than those without. It's a different risk, no doubt, but it's real nevertheless.
lukan · · focus · HN ↗
Most if not all programmers certainly would have the time to do stretching, gymnastic, sport - develop and maintain the right muscles and take brakes when needed. Most are just too lazy.
A guy breaking his back on a construction site does not have this choice - if the job requires him to lift heavier things than he safely can carry - then his only real choice is to quit.
lazide · · focus · HN ↗
Most programming folks I know sit so long, it screws up their back and ability to exercise. Rinse, repeat.
It’s a common issue for drivers too.
astura · · focus · HN ↗
lazide · · focus · HN ↗
ubercow13 · · focus · HN ↗
lazide · · focus · HN ↗
Part of why I left the industry.
Same with truck drivers.
If your job is cool with it, good for you.
ubercow13 · · focus · HN ↗
lazide · · focus · HN ↗
Sciatica screws up your ability to exercise.
lukan · · focus · HN ↗
And I luckily had not had so many company office jobs, but in those I had, I absolutely could stand up and walk around and do some stretching if I needed it. And even in the worst coding monkey enslavement camps, you can probably have toilet breaks.
lazide · · focus · HN ↗
Sure, if everyone did yoga before getting injured maybe they’d never get injured.
But if they’re injured, what exactly do you think their options are here?
You seem to be projecting a unrelated problem your ex had onto everyone. This isn’t bloody gums.
And notably, you could 90% tell the computer workers at the climbing gym by the anterior pelvic tilt - and yoga only did so much.
lukan · · focus · HN ↗
I have never said anything about my ex. And you seem not interested in the original argument - exercise before your body is messed up due to physical inactivity is usually possible. If it is too late, it is too late.
lazide · · focus · HN ↗
my point is, once someone is messed up, especially in the current job market, it’s too late to tell them that eh?
wafflemaker · · focus · HN ↗
Or to build muscle to avoid the issues. I know it first hand, herniated disks and no working out while people who do work out turn out ok. Gene and other variance to be taken into account.
Heavy physical labor with no place for rest and stretches in between is however much better at messing you up, than a work when you can pause every 15 min and do 60s of stretching. + Do 5 min of yoga before and after work. + A standing desk to stand 15min per hour. + A HÅG Capisco style chair that forces you to change position every 10 minutes (it's somewhat uncomfortable), but due to its build, allows like 4-5 different positions out of the box.
R in RSI is for repetitive.
idiotsecant · · focus · HN ↗
It's wild sometimes the level of man child bubble the average HN poster lives in.
watwut · · focus · HN ↗
In order to do everything needed so that no one calls you lazy, the day would need 80hous.
Otherwise said, if you called a hard working guy who also cooks and spends time with kids lazy, because they also did not do yet another optional activity on the regular, maybe you should not.
wafflemaker · · focus · HN ↗
Those 15 min is actually quite a lot if you don't have the habit yet. But you're in a better situation than someone working at a slaughter line, with no time to scratch your nose for 2h15min in between brakes not long enough to eat, use bathroom and sharpen your knives for the next 2h15min run.
I still feel sorry for your herniated disk, I don't think it's just your laziness, but more ignorance and equally lazy ignorant surroundings normalizing unhealthy lifestyle.
But you can't say someone that can get up and stretch for 30s every 15 min has it as bad as people running to the toilet and eating by swallowing big bites just to make it in time before the next animal comes to their position in line.
lukan · · focus · HN ↗
So I could have probably made it more clear that my judgement was not absolute, but anecdotally. But I have seen many IT guys.
Viliam1234 · · focus · HN ↗
lukan · · focus · HN ↗
hanibrel · · focus · HN ↗
And I also know plenty of ripped folks who hardly ever cook. Granted, they don't only eat fast food, but quite a lot of it.
encom · · focus · HN ↗
Civilised countries have laws prohibiting this. Here in Denmark it's arbejdsmiljøstyrelsen (bless you), and OSHA in USA.
Geezus_42 · · focus · HN ↗
encom · · focus · HN ↗
lukan · · focus · HN ↗
close04 · · focus · HN ↗
The difference between office and construction workers is that the former probably have more control over the situation but the damage is so slow they only realize too late, while the latter have too little control most times even if they are acutely aware of the immediate risk. They are the people who can’t afford to protest, lose the job, go to court, etc. and usually the informal requirements are shaped in such a way that in the end it looks like their own decision to forego safety concerns.
But an office worker can be under similar pressure to deliver day after day, and ruin their muscles, spine, eyes, joints, psyche in the process. Just less abruptly.
lukan · · focus · HN ↗
And that was my point, a office worker can get stressed a lot - but when they make a misstake they have to compile again(and maybe consider quitting), not go to the graveyard, because they fell to death.
Otherwise sure, heart attacks can happen as well. And burn out is real, too. But the work itself is not physically dangerous.
encom · · focus · HN ↗
I was the Health and Safety Representative at a previous job site, with a lot of different nationalities. Of course I can't generalise all of them, but I noticed that eastern europeans usually had way more disregard for job safety than Danes. There was one guy from Hungary especially who I had to reprimand at least weekly for doing stupid acrobatic shit on ladders. And we usually weren't even under time pressure, he just had barely any regard for his own safety. It was maddening. I would have fired him if I had authority to do so.
lukan · · focus · HN ↗
idiotsecant · · focus · HN ↗
Worker in the US do not have substantial protection. It's limited to penalizing employers and even that almost never happens.
AngryData · · focus · HN ↗
Atleast half of trade jobs in the US expect you to break OSHA and labor laws regularly as part of the job. If you don't there are enough other desperate people to replace you.
specproc · · focus · HN ↗
Five to ten minutes a few times a week, and I've not had a back problem in years.
It's a simple and easy way to keep a healthy baseline. Good for all sorts of physical and mental issues. I feel like shit if I've not done them for a while.
hanibrel · · focus · HN ↗
It helps, no doubt.
But it's not bullet proof either. A buddy of mine, very active guy, runner, cyclist, rower, tennis, swimmer, works out 10x a week, hikes 2 weeks in the rockies every summer. If anybody knows about warmup and stretching and all that, it's him. Has been a programmer for 20 years. Herniated disc took him out a year ago, still recovering.
specproc · · focus · HN ↗
What I'm saying is that stretching is going to give you a very good defence against back problems. Been totally life-changing for me.
stevepotter · · focus · HN ↗
econ · · focus · HN ↗
I once had a coworker 24 years old but he barely ate and barely slept. In a few years he has injuries everywhere that didn't go away.
One guy I know fell down 10 meters onto his back then got up and went back to work. He looks exactly like someone like that.
I've met a surprising number of manual laborers who seemed to believe you can build or repair something without materials.
Much like office workers who think ergonomics is something that comes after ruining your body.
This doesn't even look real
<a href="https://youtu.be/7bXNCrGc0Ro?is=zCL-1ARUzygbdSqS" rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/7bXNCrGc0Ro?is=zCL-1ARUzygbdSqS