Thread

500k facial scans at UK stations yield no arrests, 1 false positive

518 points · 305 comments · ilamont

jwally · 1790684914 · focus · HN ↗
I was thinking about this with flock cameras the other day...what's our actual ROI? Was the world horrible before and these initiatives are going to close a monster crime gap or is this just a giant fishing expedition ... just because?
1. pj_mukh · 1790688931 · focus · HN ↗
  Can we cut to the bone a little bit? The recent crime panics are not about a partner assaulting their live-in partner or a random home burglary. There is no real "ROI" to be had.
  It's purely about the unease of living in chaotic cities, the random stabbings, the shoplifting, the visible homelessness etc. Flock is the stopgap here.
  Partly the "feeling" of chaos is just that, a feeling, driven significantly by algorithmic feeds feeding us every random crime from around the country 24/7. Husband murders wife in a murderous rage? No one hear's about it. Mentally ill man murders a woman on the train in a Tier 2 city, immediate nationwide breaking news.
  The other part though is a real dissolution in how we take care of our mentally ill. Complex topic [1].
  I think complaining about Flock is complaining about the symptom. Today we dogpile on Flock to get it cancelled, tomorrow the public will reach for something else. We have to fix the underlying disease, which is a combination of the two factors above.
  [1]: <a href="https://time.com/6265241/america-care-of-mentally-ill-people/" rel="nofollow">https://time.com/6265241/america-care-of-mentally-ill-people...
  1. thinkingtoilet · 1790690611 · focus · HN ↗
    Let us also acknowledged that we're living in the safest time in history and modern American cities are extremely safe, despite the unhinged propaganda from the right.
    pj_mukh · 1790691048 · focus · HN ↗
    The usual retort here is that the anxiety driving the adoption of Flock can't be seen in crime statistics (which is mostly measuring partner/family crimes ala "murder rate is down").
    The random smattering of shoplifting is never reported, the unhoused man in a fit of rage yelling at passers-by is never filed with the police. But in the privacy of the voting booth, people will vote for more Flock cameras.
    Instead of waving off concerns we should be addressing them better.
    thinkingtoilet · 1790691989 · focus · HN ↗
    We can't address concerns if they aren't based in reality.
    "the unhoused man in a fit of rage yelling at passers-by is never filed with the police"
    Good. That's not a crime.
    pj_mukh · 1790692626 · focus · HN ↗
    I think you're saying that because you imagine the only alternative is for the police to come in and beat the homeless man up. But simply accepting it, or state violence aren't the only two options.
    If we don't make better governance possible, we make Flock inevitable.
    ryandrake · 1790694035 · focus · HN ↗
    Fortunately, at least for now, "Governance" doesn't involve the state coming in to do anything to someone who's not breaking the law. Homeless people have enough problems, they don't need the police to harass them and shoo them away constantly (even without violence).
    Just because much of the public think of the homeless as an eyesore that they don't want to see, and they make them briefly face uncomfortable realities, doesn't justify blanketing cities with cops and cameras.
    pj_mukh · 1790694867 · focus · HN ↗
    Flock is simply the public saying we don't trust the government in being able to keep us safe, so lets hire AI to do it.
    "shooing them away constantly" is also not the only option, but the bare point is the sidewalk has a purpose and it isn't housing. If the government can't enforce that, what else can it not enforce? The unhoused person needs better options and incentives and there are people far more qualified than me to tell us what they are, but they all agree the street is about the worst place for them.
    deadbunny · 1790697035 · focus · HN ↗
    > Flock is simply the public saying we don't trust the government in being able to keep us safe, so lets hire AI to do it.
    This speaks volumes on the state of the US.
    someonebaggy · 1790700304 · focus · HN ↗
    this spake on the state of the state of The States
    MentalM · 1790705715 · focus · HN ↗
    > This speaks volumes on the state of the US.
    It is actually true. In pretty much any other country this will be "people don't trust the government? Well, guess what? We does not care".
    zdp7 · 1790724272 · focus · HN ↗
    The public isn't saying anything of the sort. Police are buying them or cities. It's justified by telling us it makes us safer, but it's not. Let's be honest, if you have a license plate number, the alpr system probably isn't that useful. Criminals steal cars and license plates. Immigrants and activists don't.
    pj_mukh · 1790763996 · focus · HN ↗
    This is your bubble. The mayor of my city had a video up with the Police chief with a Flock camera between them talking about how this will help with the "recent traffic crime wave".
    Meanwhile the police say (and act) that they aren't legally required to protect you [1].
    The public is screaming for solutions, today you'll scream back at Flock, tomorrow there will be another "solution".
    [1]: <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-po...
    pbhjpbhj · 1790694716 · focus · HN ↗
    I don't disagree, but reflecting solely on your comment, I wonder if we should try and capture/record such disorder as a preliminary step to coming up with better ways to tackle it?
    It probably loops back to better mental health care provision? But might also relate to provision of social housing? Or any number of things. These sorts of indicators can feed into a 'gross happiness quotient' to help us focus on improving society for all of us, not just feeding the greed of the billionaires which a lot of Western society seems to be subservient to right now.
    hobofan · 1790696014 · focus · HN ↗
    But why is there a need to measure it in the first place and then only react to it?
    You already came to the proper conclusion by just thinking about it for a few minutes. Let's just skip building out a surveillance state, and put that money directly into mental health & housing initiatives instead.
    Izkata · 1790719555 · focus · HN ↗
    Around here it is, and I'm pretty sure elsewhere too: <a href="https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/chicago/latest/chicago_il/0-0-0-2643284" rel="nofollow">https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/chicago/latest/chicago...

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