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Updated Google Maps shows destruction of the city of Rafah

943 points · 947 comments · slowin

saturn_vk · 1790616232 · focus · HN ↗
It's sad that most world leaders do nothing to combat such genocide. There are so few sanctions against the state, or specific people, of Israel. Foreign forums are very much still open for business to them.
1. bamboozled · 1790636445 · focus · HN ↗
  What do you think world leaders should've done differently?
  1. cogman10 · 1790637983 · focus · HN ↗
    A lot.
    Literally on Oct 7, Hamas tried to return civilian hostages, who the IDF killed. This is why Hamas changed policies to only give up hostages through 3rd parties. They reached out to israel to try and return hostages and were ignored. They reached out to the US to return hostages and were ignored. [1]
    So for starters, the US could have pressured Israel to negotiate with Hamas to return the hostages.
    As Israel started to show genocidal intent (for example, killing aide workers multiple times). The US could have at a minimum threaten to withhold aide. In fact, there are laws on the books that a country such as Israel committing war crimes is ineligible for aide.
    Finally, the UN should have deployed peace keepers to gaza specifically to stop the genocide.
    Actions could have been taken, but they weren't because our politicians are so bribed by Israeli lobby money as to turn a complete blind eye to it's misdeeds.
    [1] <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-politics/2026-09-15/ty-article/.premium/hostage-families-release-list-of-govt-decisions-preceding-oct-7/000001a0-a521-dea8-afe0-e5adef4a0000" rel="nofollow">https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-politics/2026-09-...
    hamsteredf · 1790640340 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    cogman10 · 1790641356 · focus · HN ↗
    Oh look, brand new account doing hasbara. Where have we seen this before? Are you a part of Israel's $1B spent on online propaganda? [1]
    I cited my source. But there were also sources in October 2023 about Hamas wanting to return the hostages. The Haaretz articles reveal that it was privately even earlier than expected and the Netanyahu was warned of the attack in advance yet he chose to do nothing about it.
    Why not just drop them off? Well for 1 they actually wanted the hostages to get home alive. The IDF didn't care about killing hostages as they relentlessly bombed the region.
    Why not let the Red Cross see them? Because the IDF was closely watching and, shocker, if you take someone directly to the hostages guess what building gets blown up next?
    > They kept them locked up and starving.
    What a strange lie. Yes they were locked up but the hostages themselves reported that Hamas treated them well. Why wouldn't they? They aren't Israel who anally rapes their hostages [2]. The Israeli government would LOVE for Hamas to have mistreated the hostages. But alas, this is just projection.
    [1] <a href="https://quincyinst.org/research/the-eighth-front-inside-israels-1-billion-influence-campaign/" rel="nofollow">https://quincyinst.org/research/the-eighth-front-inside-isra...
    [2] <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-detention-base.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb" rel="nofollow">https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-g...
    tourist2d · 1790644003 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    monideas · 1790664585 · focus · HN ↗
    Essentially your point is that Hamas protected the hostages from the IDF by not returning them.
    This is abject insanity and it’s a good representation of what is going on in the minds of most of humanity.
    someonebaggy · 1790681212 · focus · HN ↗
    Are they wrong? On October 7, Hamas released three hostages. Israel shot and killed the hostages, so Hamas said they won't release any more hostages without some kind of security deal. That sounds like protecting them to me.
    monideas · 1790681524 · focus · HN ↗
    These are the types of conflicts over basic values and senses of right and wrong for which distinct countries with borders and militaries exist. Basically I don’t think discussions like this are fruitful. Historically these types of cross cultural exchanges were very rare, now they’re very common because of the internet.
    someonebaggy · 1790685952 · focus · HN ↗
    Very interesting to compare this wording with your previous comment.
    When it's about Hamas imprisoning hostages: "Hamas kept them underground in chains in near starvation conditions. This is abject insanity."
    When it's about Israel murdering hostages: "Well, you know... We don't always agree on right and wrong. That's why different countries exist. Is this discussion really fruitful?"
    monideas · 1790686327 · focus · HN ↗
    Again to use the word murder to describe the accidental killing of hostages is insane and why we have countries and militaries.
    someonebaggy · 1790686648 · focus · HN ↗
    My dude, they pointed a sniper rifle at an unarmed naked Israeli man holding a white flag and shouting for help in Hebrew, centered him in the scope, and pulled the trigger.
    monideas · 1790686842 · focus · HN ↗
    Obviously it was not done on purpose. That wouldn’t make any sense to do on purpose. If they knew they were Israelis they wouldn’t have pulled the trigger. Surely despite how mentally ill you are this should be understandable.
    What was done on purpose was killing 50k Palestinian terrorists, destroying all the buildings, killing Nasrallah and blowing up thousands of Hezbollah terrorists with beepers, in many cases wounding their genitals and eyes.
    What are you going to do about that?
    halflife · 1790689852 · focus · HN ↗
    That is completely incorrect. The terrorists that were put in charge of these hostages fled and left them alone in a war zone. They were definitely NOT released.
    They were killed because of mistaken identity, which is horrible, but it happens in war, some IDF soldiers died from friendly fire.
    Hamas definitely didn’t ask protection for the hostages, they asked protection for themselves.
    There are many hostages reports of Hamas terrorists saying to hostages that if IDF will draw near, they will shoot the hostages.
    someonebaggy · 1790690849 · focus · HN ↗
    They accidentally sniped the naked guy holding a white flag and shouting in Hebrew?
    halflife · 1790701174 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes, because Hamas routinely does that to lure IDF soldiers.
    Let’s use occams razor hear.
    Option A - mistaken identity because the enemy wears no uniform, embeds itself in civilians, and uses inhumane tactics to confuse IDF soldiers (like putting explosives on dead bodies, placing speakers with hostages recording as bait)
    Option B - IDF decided to kill the hostages they came to rescue for some evil reason
    someonebaggy · 1790714917 · focus · HN ↗
    Awfully convenient for them that whenever a hostage gets released they can just say "whoopsie" and justify it as they thought it was a lure.
    halflife · 1790726296 · focus · HN ↗
    It happened once.
    And I see you’re sticking with the “evil IDF just decided to kill these 3 hostages without any reason” plot.
    monideas · 1790664463 · focus · HN ↗
    What he means is they could have been traded for all of the concessions Hamas wanted in exchange for them.
    And yes this is true but the reason you couldn’t comprehend his point is because his point is insane.
    cogman10 · 1790681095 · focus · HN ↗
    This is an uncharitable reading of my point and not what I meant.
    monideas · 1790681847 · focus · HN ↗
    What did you mean then?
    cogman10 · 1790685292 · focus · HN ↗
    > They reached out to israel to try and return hostages and were ignored. They reached out to the US to return hostages and were ignored.
    That Hamas was open extremely early on in the conflict to negotiations for returning hostages and Israel and the US knew this while they waged a bombing campaign and pretended like Hamas wasn't trying or willing to return hostages.
    Negotiations weren't happening because Israel didn't want those negotiations, not because they weren't available.
    And, I don't know if you are aware, but negotiations involve give and take. Israel didn't need to "traded for all of the concessions Hamas wanted in exchange for them".
    The reason the hostages weren't returned sooner is because Israel didn't want them. In 2024 Hamas accepted all of Israel's terms multiple times only for Israel to change terms. Israel knew they'd have fewer justifications for their genocide if they got the hostages back.
    That's my point.
    monideas · 1790685478 · focus · HN ↗
    This is exactly what I said you were saying
    cogman10 · 1790685628 · focus · HN ↗
    You said.
    > What he means is they could have been traded for all of the concessions Hamas wanted in exchange for them.
    Where in my writing did I say that Israel needed to accept all concessions. Please quote me.
    Do you think it's unreasonable or "insane" for Israel to have accepted some concessions for the safe return of hostages?
    monideas · 1790686087 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes it would have been insane to accept any concessions. If you don’t understand that then you have work to do on yourself. This is a very weak and suicidal position to take.
    cogman10 · 1790686332 · focus · HN ↗
    > Yes it would have been insane to accept any concessions.
    Any? Like even a temporary ceasefire? That's a suicidal position?
    Notice how you had to change from "all" to "any".
    monideas · 1790686608 · focus · HN ↗
    There were many temporary ceasefires in exchange for hostages but this was done as part of the broader war effort, ultimately Israel is not bound to anything in these “agreements”. It’s basically just saying and doing whatever needs to be said and done to accomplish the war goals.
    cogman10 · 1790687038 · focus · HN ↗
    A ceasefire is a concession. And my point, which I think is clear, is there's a pretty wide gap between "They have to accept all hamas concessions" and "they have to negotiate".
    It's pretty hard for you to argue against the fact that there are, in fact, reasonable concessions that aren't "suicidal".
    monideas · 1790687265 · focus · HN ↗
    The context of this discussion is the idea that war could have been avoided if Israel had been willing to negotiate with Hamas over the hostages.
    cogman10 · 1790688396 · focus · HN ↗
    That is not the context of the discussion. The context is "what should world leaders have done differently".
    And, I never said that the war was either avoidable or that Israel was wrong to use force after Oct 7.
    What I am saying is that the war could have ended years ago and that Israel has committed genocide. I'm also saying that the pretext that it was about "getting the hostages home" was false.
    And with that context, yes there are things world leaders should have done to stop Israel from committing genocide.

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