Thread

1. Kim_Bruning · 1790344641 · focus · HN ↗

   So currently europe is exposed to russia-ukraine, us-iran, and shortly china-taiwan. This is not a great place to be in.

   1. sajithdilshan · 1790346355 · focus · HN ↗

      [dead]

      1. bpodgursky · 1790346620 · focus · HN ↗

         Sorry this is a crazy interpretation of events.

         Europe has 15x the GDP of Russia. If they were "hell bent" on militarily defeating Russia, they could have made even tiny sacrifices to the social welfare system, diverted industrial production to military aid, and drowned Ukraine in help. That was a very achievable goal, and they didn't do it.

         Instead, the vacillated on importing US natural gas, continued shutting down nuclear power plants, and paid Russia MORE CASH FOR OIL than they ended up giving Ukraine in military aid! They did not in fact, dedicate themselves to this war in any way shape or form.

         1. PorciiVorbesc · 1790346985 · focus · HN ↗

            > they could have made even tiny sacrifices to the social welfare system, diverted industrial production to military aid, and drowned Ukraine in help. That was a very achievable goal, and they didn't do it.

            We already did that. Welfare and funding to social services, elderly care, etc is significantly reduced and with higher bar to get than before 2022 where I live. Plus we're also paying the price in higher housing costs thanks to housing millions of Ukrainians.

            It's easy to want a higher reduction on welfare services when you're not the one needing them. It's easy to write cheques that other people have to cash.

            1. gib444 · 1790347606 · focus · HN ↗

               [delayed]

               1. PorciiVorbesc · 1790375189 · focus · HN ↗

                  >All because they aren't retirement age yet

                  Have you told them to jump on a small inflatable boat, throw away their passports and enter the EU via the Mediterranean? They'll get first class treatment for all their needs on the taxpayers' dime. Because if they don't get it, there's a dozen NGOs paid from your taxes that will sue their government for breaking their human rights for not providing them with the housing and care they need.

                  1. gib444 · 1790422251 · focus · HN ↗

                     Mhmm it's hard not to feel aggrieved with people who get certain basic care no-questions-asked when there are so many reports of questionable claims of what they're fleeing from/age/origin etc and given the numbers (~220k asylum seekers in the system as of 2024, and conveniently a 'transition to a new caseworking system' has prevented any newer figures being published)

                     But I think we have bigger taxation/spending and economic issues in the UK. Nobody really cares about asylum seekers/immigrants when the economy is booming, jobs are plentiful and inflation is low.

                     We do seem have a defective system in which people who suddenly need help after having a job and paying lots of tax are more-or-less ignored, but life-long welfare claimants are already so entrenched in the system, it's just a continuation.

                     Job Seeker's benefit is £408/mo for a maximum of 6 months and only if you had paid sufficient tax in the 2 years prior – basically just a small tax refund but only if you follow the rules imposed upon you by your 'job coach'. And that benefit doesn't then entitle you to any other discount/benefits unlike certain other benefits. It's designed to make you to take any job that turns up – indeed your work 'coach' will likely force you to do that.

                     Rant over lol

               2. bar8uyr · 1790519377 · focus · HN ↗

                  Then go private and get the same treatment as the USA. Or wait 16 weeks and get it for free.
            2. bpodgursky · 1790348015 · focus · HN ↗

               Are you for real? Look into France's pension situation. The median pensioner has HIGHER INCOME than the median working adult. And retirement was at 62!

               No, there have been absolutely no real cuts to elderly care, the UK's triple lock ensures that the situation gets monotonically worse until the system collapses.

               1. PorciiVorbesc · 1790374217 · focus · HN ↗

                  >Are you for real?

                  YES.

                  I don't live in France or the UK.

                  >No, there have been absolutely no real cuts to elderly care

                  Yeah they have. My city is short 30 million Euros on disability care this year despite increases in taxes. I (non retiree) now need to wait 6+ months for a surgery when it used to be 2, and pay from my taxes for money and weapons to Ukraine and housing to Ukrainian refugees in my city while they have nicer cars than me. I don't necessarily mind that per se, but I do mind being berated as if I'm not sacrificing enough. Please set an example and sacrifice yourself and your family for Ukraine before lecturing us.

                  1. Scoundreller · 1790472133 · focus · HN ↗

                     > because they leave them on UA plates

                     which EU country permits non-EU plates (and insurance?) indefinitely?

            3. hunterpayne · 1790461114 · focus · HN ↗

               That was always going to happen. The war just makes that worse. The demographics and lack of economic growth were always going to break those welfare systems. How much they break and who loses out were the only real questions.
         2. sajithdilshan · 1790346993 · focus · HN ↗

            > If they were "hell bent" on militarily defeating Russia, they could have made even tiny sacrifices to the social welfare system, diverted industrial production to military aid, and drowned Ukraine in help

            Why do you think an entire continent with multiple and (sometimes even conflicting with each other) culture, priorities, national interest would do that? EU is an economic union. Not a federation like US

            1. HarHarVeryFunny · 1790353487 · focus · HN ↗

               Because NATO article 5 demands it.

               European support started out slow, but has ramped up as the US has backed away.

               Germany will spend 20% of it's federal budget on military in 2027, planning to increase that to 30% by 2030. "We cannot defend ourselves against Putin with a balanced budget".

               1. dns_snek · 1790355767 · focus · HN ↗

                  [delayed]

                  1. HarHarVeryFunny · 1790357112 · focus · HN ↗

                     The parent was talking about the disunity of Europe in standing up to Putin.

                     What would come next after Ukraine may be the Baltic states or Poland.

                     1. sajithdilshan · 1790362285 · focus · HN ↗

                        > What would come next after Ukraine may be the Baltic states or Poland.

                        According to your YouTube sources? NATO has nothing to do with Ukraine. NATO countries can defend themselves if one of those countries actually are being attacked. That happened in 9/11 and NATO countries supporting militarily the US wars that preceded.

                        They have no such obligation towards Ukraine.

                        1. HarHarVeryFunny · 1790365496 · focus · HN ↗

                           They have no NATO obligation towards Ukraine, but I'd say they do have a moral one, and they also have their own self-interest.

                           1. sajithdilshan · 1790413140 · focus · HN ↗

                              There is no such thing as moral obligation when it comes to politics and national interest. If it’s your country, then it’s your job to defend it or whatever. So far it doesn’t seem to be serving their self interest supporting an endless war.

                              1. HarHarVeryFunny · 1790445384 · focus · HN ↗

                                 Their self-interest is in keeping Putin at arms length and avoiding WW III. Putin is already threatening Lithuania, sending drones into Poland. If Putin wasn't prevented from taking Ukraine, do you really think it would end there?
                              2. CamperBob2 · 1790471426 · focus · HN ↗

                                 There is no such thing as moral obligation when it comes to politics and national interest.

                                 There is if you ever want to negotiate a nuclear arms-control deal again. None of this would be an issue if Ukraine had kept their nukes.

                                 1. bar8uyr · 1790519764 · focus · HN ↗

                                    They had that treaty that they kinda forgot about already..
               2. sajithdilshan · 1790355856 · focus · HN ↗

                  Ukraine is not a NATO member
         3. HarHarVeryFunny · 1790347588 · focus · HN ↗

            Europe has been stepping up a lot recently, given Trump's reluctance to push back against Putin - looks at UK/France supply of missile and anti-missile systems and IP to Ukraine, stepped up air defense based out of Lithuania (anticipating Kaliningrad as the first front of the war), etc.

            1. bpodgursky · 1790348148 · focus · HN ↗

               No, they have not been "stepping up" relative to the existential threat at their door. They are still doing 10% of the minimum you'd expect from someone whose literal lives and civilization are at risk from a barbarian threat literally murdering their neighbors (and playing games with their own sovereignty more recently, with drone incursions).

               1. bar8uyr · 1790520019 · focus · HN ↗

                  Measured response. Remember that you don't want all out war. Support your allies, don't kill everyone in the entire world.

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