Thread

Dutch governments builds alternative for Microsoft based on NixOS

1021 points · 583 comments · fjfaase

ricardobeat · 1790328018 · focus · HN ↗
A note to the developers in the project, if anyone is reading: your repositories are in violation of the new Codeberg policy that forbids AI-generated code [1].
[1] <a href="https://blog.codeberg.org/protecting-our-floss-commons-from-llms.html" rel="nofollow">https://blog.codeberg.org/protecting-our-floss-commons-from-...
1. schnebbau · 1790329248 · focus · HN ↗
  Codeberg are going to have issues in the future when all code is AI generated (except for artisanal code of course, written for the love of the craft but not to achieve anything of merit).
  1. max_streese · 1790329593 · focus · HN ↗
    Assuming writing code by hand is slower (which I agree with), why can't it still have merit compared to code written via llm harness?
    schnebbau · 1790330462 · focus · HN ↗
    Because no one is going to hire developers who write code by hand, apart from a few niches. For the same reason that no one hires a courier who delivers by horse anymore, or a miller who uses windmills to grind their grain, or a cooper who continues to use wooden staves and iron hoops instead of forming plastic or metal containers, or...
    applfanboysbgon · 1790330511 · focus · HN ↗
    Yeah yeah, except LLM code is absolute dogshit and is not on a trajectory to ever not be dogshit.
    schnebbau · 1790330632 · focus · HN ↗
    <a href="https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/akakichi-no-eleven-redraws" rel="nofollow">https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/akakichi-no-eleven-redraws
    dwb · 1790335071 · focus · HN ↗
    I’m sorry, but this isn’t the case. I don’t like it, on balance, but managed responsibly and steered well, plenty of LLM code is fine.
    fc417fc802 · 1790333955 · focus · HN ↗
    > or a miller who uses windmills to grind their grain,
    Huh. For all the "traditional", "organic", "hand crafted", and other "things" I've encountered that isn't one of them. I wonder why no one is advertising fair trade hydropower stone ground organic flour?
    tmtvl · 1790336276 · focus · HN ↗
    Because people generally don't like having bits of millstone in their flour.
    EraYaN · 1790338792 · focus · HN ↗
    At least where I am (the Netherlands) there are plenty of mills still milling.
    gspr · 1790340557 · focus · HN ↗
    Your analogy is terrible.
    The act of verifying that parcel is delivered, that the grain is correctly ground, or that the container is up to spec is far easier than the act of delivering/grinding/making in the first place (and in the latter case, there's perhaps even an argument to be had that the modernized process eases verification).
    For a lot of coding, this is simply not the case. And so people will retort that that's fine, LLMs will help with verification and maintenance too. I think you're seriously misguided – you're accidentally trying to turn human prose into a programming language, and it's a terrible terrible idea!
    At any rate, I find it extremely worrying that people like you keep reiterating this point as if it's a fact. If it's true, then surely we'll very soon see the evidence. The way you speak of the "near future" with certainty, as if everyone agrees, gives me the same sour taste as cryptobros or MLM conmen. Yuck.
    schnebbau · 1790345843 · focus · HN ↗
    Feel free to disagree, but you will be wrong.
    gspr · 1790364514 · focus · HN ↗
    This, too, gives me vibes of cryptobros!
    Proponent: EmergingTech is gonna be amazing, it'll at revolutionize everything!
    Bystander: Alright. But I'll hold off until I see actual evidence of that happening. Truly revolutionizing tech usually shows clear signs of being revolutionary, and doesn't need evangelists.
    Proponent: You're gonna be left behind! Act now, or forever miss out! Here's analogies with things we know in hindsight were revolutionary.
    Bystander: Those analogies are bad for these specific reasons.
    Proponent: You will be proven wrong!
    It's so dumb. At least you AI proponents don't post pictures of yourself with glowing laser eyes when you evangelize, so I guess that's an improvement over the cryptobros.
    PS: I emphasize that I'm not claiming that the technology won't have huge effects on society. If that's your take, you have to read again.
  2. applfanboysbgon · 1790330314 · focus · HN ↗
    Policies are enacted for current reality, not fantasy futures. If your magical fantasy becomes reality (it won't), they can just... change their policy. Of course, you aren't thinking about practical effects of policies on platforms, only on how it's an insult to your LLM-bro way of life.
    schnebbau · 1790330543 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    applfanboysbgon · 1790330734 · focus · HN ↗
    Sure. You can come gloat about how you're unemployed because nobody needs a prompt monkey when they can just prompt the LLM to produce dogshit code themselves.
    schnebbau · 1790333169 · focus · HN ↗
    I climbed out of the code trenches years ago - I have multiple companies, I'll be fine.
    And yes, they both have moats that will take AI at least 5 years to erode, at which point I'll just retire.
    Regarding the dog shit code comment: this is the problem with your whole line of thinking. Customers don't care if the code is dog shit. They care if they get value from the product.
    As I mentioned, there will still be some demand for devs who code by hand, similar to how theres still demand for blacksmiths who make ornamental weapons.
    applfanboysbgon · 1790333553 · focus · HN ↗
    Dogshit code doesn't give customers value from the product. You can get away with enshittifying your code/product if you already have an iron grip on the market and network effects make it impossible to escape, eg. Windows/appleOS/Android, Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, Discord, etc. At that point, you're relying on the inertia of community lock-in to replace product quality. However, this strategy does not work if you aren't a FAANG-scale monopolist. If your code and product is dogshit, you will never get off the ground. You need not only a better product but an overwhelmingly superior product to the competition to defeat inertia. And we see this playing out in reality: there are no vibecoded software disrupting the market. At most vibecoded software is carving out a new MLM-style pyramid of vibecoding tools, but it is not replacing hand-crafted software.
    schnebbau · 1790334408 · focus · HN ↗
    This is just wishful thinking.
    Building the product was never the hard part. Getting it in front of people is. That will continue to be true, except the build stage will be even easier.
    andersonpico · 1790337418 · focus · HN ↗
    > Building the product was never the hard part
    this is an absolutely insane take
    gmueckl · 1790343339 · focus · HN ↗
    Is it? A lot of software is really just a pile of context-specific database front-ends. There is virtually nothing difficult in the implementation itself. Most businesses in this space survive because they know how to dress up their pile of CRUD for their customers. And it gets worse: a less reliable, buggier product may still be the better fit for a customer if it works well enough for what they use it the most.
    schnebbau · 1790345890 · focus · HN ↗
    Prove it?
    cleaning · 1790352229 · focus · HN ↗
    I worked in an early startup that came from 5+ years of initial academic research and selling the product was far more arduous of a process.
    gspr · 1790340853 · focus · HN ↗
    You sound exactly like the cryptobros of yore. Just stop.
    If you're right, the evidence will bear that out. Stop evangelizing. It's insufferable. And it's paradoxical that so many who believe this technology to be absolutely world-changing also feel that the technology needs to be pushed onto people actively. It reminds me of religious people ("my god is all-powerful, but if you meaningless mortal insult him he'll be mightily upset").
    gmueckl · 1790342783 · focus · HN ↗
    I also hate preachy sermons about new tech with a deep passion and that transfers somewhat to the tech they preach about.
    Despite this, there is a reality that LLMs for coding can create pretty decent results fast. There is something real and usable hidden in all that mess. It's like the dot com bubble in some ways: the bubble died with all the overhyped "x on the web" BS that had no real substance, but the web itself stayed. This time around, LLMs and agents will stick around as tools, but the hype will likely die a loud, messy death.
    gspr · 1790344444 · focus · HN ↗
    Sure. But HN these days is the epitome of "x but on the web" in the AI era. It's insufferable!
    applfanboysbgon · 1790353235 · focus · HN ↗
    Nobody here is saying otherwise. The Codeberg policy in question does not forbid LLM-assistance outright; their policy is targeted towards unmitigated slop. Even myself, as I argue heatedly against the religious adherents, not only use LLMs daily but work for a very successful LLM startup developing and selling LLMs-as-tools. That does not make the people who won't shut the fuck up about LLMs-as-gods any less infuriating.
    schnebbau · 1790356375 · focus · HN ↗
    This is nothing like crypto. Crypto never got beyond the bros. It was never used seriously in the real world beyond the concepts attempting to pierce the veil.
    Almost every dev I know is already using AI to some capacity.
    This is like telling Henry Ford he's getting too excited about his cars after he'd already sold a million and with no slowdown in sight.
    What a miserable way to think. I implore you to keep this sort of advice to yourself.
  3. Thanemate · 1790330455 · focus · HN ↗
    >but not to achieve anything of merit
    Educating oneself to provide better quality of work still requires writing code by hand, and by extend is an achievement of merit.

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