Thread

1. phkahler · 1790170056 · focus · HN ↗

   Reminds me of when Nest thermostats stopped turning on the furnace without an internet connection. If your product fails at its primary job because of some other priority its junk. A thermostat can be as simple as a coiled spring with a mercury switch - no software. Same here, what stupid functionality was so important they failed to ensure the fridge would fridge?

   IoT is not for me.

   1. cryptoegorophy · 1790171488 · focus · HN ↗

      Similar to when printer stops printing black when color is gone.

      1. Grombobulous · 1790172418 · focus · HN ↗

         I have never understood the negative controversy around this.

         I expect the printer to use whatever inks it has on hand to print in the best quality it can.

         The use of ink is an inevitability.

         It always struck me as one of those things analogous to “I don’t understand why my car needs oil when I already put gas in it.”

         Just give the machine the stuff it requires to operate.

         1. Ensorceled · 1790172621 · focus · HN ↗

            This is disingenuous; a car needs both gas and oil to run. A printer should only need black ink to print black and white documents.

            1. Grombobulous · 1790173815 · focus · HN ↗

               That’s what you think, though, you didn’t design the printer. I assume you don’t have a background in color theory or chemistry or whatever else you need to produce ink.

               For all you know, the black ink isn’t really a perfect black and the color inks are used in conjunction with the black ink.

               I also think a lot of people are just being cheap about it. It’s just not a big deal.

               In my experience a color inkjet printer makes a much better print than a black and white laser printer. If you are willing to sacrifice print quality then buy a black and white laser printer.

               1. Ensorceled · 1790177459 · focus · HN ↗

                  > That’s what you think, though, you didn’t design the printer. I assume you don’t have a background in color theory or chemistry or whatever else you need to produce ink.

                  Do you?

                  Monotone printers are a thing and have been since the 60's.

                  1. Grombobulous · 1790178031 · focus · HN ↗

                     I agree, monotone printers are available technology, and monotone printers have worse output quality than a color inkjet printer.

                     If you want a monotone printer, buy one. I just have a little bit of confusion around the situation where people who bought color inkjet printers aren’t willing to put color ink in the printer.

                     1. hamburglar · 1790179681 · focus · HN ↗

                        You’re aware, aren’t you, that a color inkjet that only squirts ink out of the black cartridge is, technically speaking, a black and white inkjet printer? A color inkjet is literally a superset of a black and white one.

                        1. Grombobulous · 1790183002 · focus · HN ↗

                           You think there is zero chance that the ink formulation differs between a color printer versus a black and white printer?

                           I’m pretty sure the reasoning for color ink cartridges relying on both sets of cartridges is that the “black” cartridge is no longer perfectly black in that configuration.

                           1. AngryData · 1790185348 · focus · HN ↗

                              Ive seen older inkjets share inks cartridges between color and black and white only models. And the only reason you don't see that commonly nnow is because people who use primarily black prints bought laser printers now which are chwaper than in the past.

                              1. [deleted] · 1790210607 · focus · HN ↗

                                 [deleted]

                           2. hamburglar · 1790275015 · focus · HN ↗

                              Obviously there is that chance. But just as obviously, someone who just wants to print their homework is almost always way more concerned with their printer “working” than they are with it printing “perfectly black” ink.

                              1. Grombobulous · 1790343201 · focus · HN ↗

                                 Again, this goes back to “someone who is doing critical time-sensitive work must have supplies on hand.”

                                 Anyone who runs out of color ink presumably could run out of black ink or run out of paper, too, because they weren’t keeping necessary supplies on hand.

                                 So really the only cognitive adjustment they need to make is to tell themselves “this printer requires two cartridges to operate” rather than making a blind assumption that it will work with just one.

                                 I would be surprised if this wasn’t already disclosed in the user manual as well.

                                 The psychological justifications don’t matter. This is how the machine works. If you don’t want that machine then you buy a different printer.

                                 1. hamburglar · 1790661373 · focus · HN ↗

                                    I think the general complaint is that the machine doesn’t need to work that way, and a lot of people buy them not understanding that they work that way, because almost nobody wants them to work that way, and that the only reason for them to work that way is to unnecessarily sell ink that people wouldn’t actually need if it weren’t for this artificial constraint. Ergo, upset consumers that are angry at their printer manufacturers for making a user hostile decision.

                                    Your steadfast refusal to acknowledge this obvious point makes me wonder whether you work in the hp inkjet division designing ways to piss off customers. I suspect you understand it quite well, though, and are just enjoying being a contrarian.

               2. hamburglar · 1790179332 · focus · HN ↗

                  You are bending over backwards to justify this user hostile practice. Most people wouldn’t choose to not print at all just because it “isn’t really a perfect black.” They’re just trying to get their homework printed.

                  I bought a color laser in 2004 and I’ve never replaced the C M or Y toner because I almost never print color. Miraculously, it is still happy to print “imperfect” black and white, which is exactly what I want.

                  1. Grombobulous · 1790183494 · focus · HN ↗

                     But now we are diving deep into personal preference. I personally never want to print stuff that comes out wrong and looks bad.

                     I think that this definition of “user-hostile” depends on a deliberate misinterpretation of the requirements of running the device.

                     If we just change our frame of reference to hold the expectation that “all ink supplies supplies must be sufficient for it to operate” it seems perfectly reasonable to me.

                     I dunno, maybe I just have an aversion to broken shit being in my house. Maybe you’re right, maybe it would be better to have some kind of “emergency” functionality for the times when I forget to refill ink. I also just keep spare ink cartridges so I’m never rushing out to buy another one. This is, to me, part of being a functioning adult.

                     I wouldn’t really allow the things I own to be broken or out of supplies if they’re things I rely on.

                     These are $30-50 ink cartridges, and many inkjet printers have cheaper refill supplies with the popularity of ink tank designs where you can refill them yourself including third party ink without the need to buy new ink cartridges.

                     There’s just so much outrage around this subject for no reason if you ask me. People barely print anymore anyway, I think it’s time we get over it.

                     1. AngryData · 1790185433 · focus · HN ↗

                        The solution to your issue is a warning about low ink and quality, not refusal to print at all.

                        1. [deleted] · 1790343545 · focus · HN ↗

                           [deleted]

                     2. hamburglar · 1790275098 · focus · HN ↗

                        Slightly suboptimal black ink coverage is not an “emergency” use case.
               3. IAmBroom · 1790194796 · focus · HN ↗

                  > I assume you don’t have a background in color theory or chemistry or whatever else you need to produce ink.

                  You don't, either.

                  Black ink is all that's required to print B&W documents. Period. No one designs a black ink to be supplemented by another color before it achieves "full blackness". That's literally the entire point of black ink.

         2. jaapz · 1790172708 · focus · HN ↗

            Your engine explodes when it doesnt have oil.

            A printer can still print black when color ink is gone

         3. xattt · 1790172764 · focus · HN ↗

            A device like a printer can work without certain inks without damage, but at the cost of quality.

            Humans have historically been able to decide when quality is low enough that replacement/repair is necessary in these situations. This goes for almost anything: appliances, farming equipment, clothing, etc.

            Having a device/appliance/tool that decides for you that “it’s time”, especially when the manufacturer has a vested interest in coercing you into a buying a replacement right away, takes away that owner agency.

            1. Grombobulous · 1790173665 · focus · HN ↗

               My printer could theoretically print a black and white page in magneta when my black ink runs out, too. But logically, it doesn’t want to do that.

               I just don’t think it’s a big deal to consider the printer a device that requires all inks to be present to function properly. If the printer is consuming some color inks in order to print black colors better the implication is that less black ink is being consumed. Either way you’re buying ink.

               Some people are just cheap.

               1. kstrauser · 1790174178 · focus · HN ↗

                  It’s not cheapness. My kid couldn’t print her homework because I was low on cyan. It’s not that I don’t want to buy more ink, but that the thing I was printing only needed black. If it weren’t a color printer, the output would’ve been identical and it wouldn’t have needed cyan.

                  1. Grombobulous · 1790177923 · focus · HN ↗

                     Alternatively, the printer allows you to keep going regardless of status of the print ink and then the printer gets bad reviews and complaints about bad print quality.

                     Your unpreparedness on your kids’ homework isn’t the fault of the manufacturer. I can’t blame Ticonderoga if I run out of pencils.

                     If you ran out of black ink you’d be similarly in trouble.

                     1. epcoa · 1790179781 · focus · HN ↗

                        This is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. A standard mono laser printer can somehow print adequately without ANY color toner.

                        1. Grombobulous · 1790182971 · focus · HN ↗

                           Because it has a different ink formulation that’s designed for mono-colored printing.

                           Let’s make another analogy: two wheels fall off my car. You tell me “hey, motorcycles exist, you can still use that car!!”

                           But my car isn’t a motorcycle, it’s a car.

                           If you buy a printer that requires two cartridges to function then you keep both cartridges filled to keep it functioning.

                           I’ve always felt like this whole discussion has mostly surrounded people who are penny pinching to an extreme level that doesn’t make sense. You didn’t run out of color ink because you never printed in color. And if you never printed in color you wouldn’t have bought a color printer. You’ve gotta refill your color ink eventually.

                           This is the same thing as people who add water to their liquid hand soap to try and make it last longer. It just makes the soap gross and saves 10 cents at best.

                           1. simonra · 1790195397 · focus · HN ↗

                              The reason to buy a colour inkjet printer is that it's the cheapest thing you can get your hands on. Usually because the various education systems throughout the world somehow fail to centrally handle printing of course material. Either that, or you're one of the couple of dozen people who prints photos, and additionally in the subset that hasn't also decided to pay for someone else to deal with the cursed product category.

                              1. Grombobulous · 1790210287 · focus · HN ↗

                                 Cheaper than the Canon imageCLASS LBP6030w for $87?

                                 I can find some Brother monochrome laser printers for $70 on eBay.

                                 1. simonra · 1790229960 · focus · HN ↗

                                    After a quick check I found the "HP Deskjet Plus 4130" new for 350 NOK (so about 37 USD, which includes 25% VAT and a 2 or 5 (probably 5) year warranty mandated of the vendor). Seems similar to the others that come up when sorting by price on one of the local price comparison sites. So 70 USD would for most people appear to be about twice as much money up front for something that needs to produce the bare minimum and otherwise be easy to dust.

                                    1. Grombobulous · 1790343065 · focus · HN ↗

                                       Is there some kind of information asymmetry at play where in 2026 customers can’t comprehend a more expensive printer being a lower cost in the long run?

                                       And here we are talking about a difference in cost of roughly $35 or the price of a meal for 2 at Chipotle.

                                       Would you say that it’s unfair that the Toyota Prius costs more to purchase than a Nissan Sentra but the Prius costs less to operate due to having much better fuel efficiency?

                                       Are consumers somehow unable to understand why they might choose invest more up front?

                     2. xattt · 1790182273 · focus · HN ↗

                        > Your unpreparedness on your kids’ homework isn’t the fault of the manufacturer. I can’t blame Ticonderoga if I run out of pencils.

                        That analogy doesn’t hold up. You have other colour pencils at hand, but you can’t use them because the blue pencil is worn down. Let me use my goshdarn pencils.

               2. kakacik · 1790174342 · focus · HN ↗

                  No, its tracking dots if you send a criminal printed letter for ransom, they will track you down very quickly. Some people don't like being tracked continuously.

                  There are 0 other reasons, you being ignorant of basic facts and repeating your weird mantra doesn't change that.

                  1. Citizen_Lame · 1790175425 · focus · HN ↗

                     He also supports ID verification on phones/computers. Probably some troll.

                     1. Grombobulous · 1790177979 · focus · HN ↗

                        Having opinions doesn’t make me a troll, please don’t assume mal-intentions. I am presenting my opinions and having good faith discussions.
                  2. AngryData · 1790185110 · focus · HN ↗

                     Ehh, the tracking dots don't mean anything if it isn't a commercial unit and your printer isn't seized. Its not like there is a database of where every shitty printer made in the last 20 years is located and who owns it and what dots it prints.

                     In consumer models it is security theater for politicians to claim prints can be tracked and for the consumers to use/waste more ink and buy more.

         4. IAmBroom · 1790183776 · focus · HN ↗

            No, the better analogy is that your car won't drive because you are out of windshield wiper fluid.

            It doesn't need that to operate, except in certain situations. The odds of being hit by a windshield-high wave of mud by a passing truck, when the sky is clear, are very low.

            1. Grombobulous · 1790184161 · focus · HN ↗

               I’ll revise the analogy. My car lost two wheels. I should be able to drive it because motorcycles exist.

               That doesn’t hold up because I didn’t buy a motorcycle, I bought a car.

               If you buy a color printer it needs two cartridges to have ink in order to function.

               If people would just realize that and accept it as reality the issue becomes much less of a big deal.

               Let’s keep in mind that plenty of tank style inkjet printers exist where refills are trivially expensive and third party refills are allowed.

               This whole subject is just one of those “I dilute my liquid hand soap to save 10 cents” issues where it seems super unappealing to me.

               These hypothetical scenarios where we run out of color ink the day before the big homework assignment is due and now my draconian printer won’t let me print…I dunno, it just seems like blame shifting. How hard is it to keep a spare ink cartridge around?

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