Passkeys do marginally improve security against MITM and phishing attacks, but they are primarily for protecting the lowest common denominator from themselves: people who re-use passwords and/or don't use a password manager.
If you use multiple devices throughout the day, registering passkeys in all of these systems becomes a big headache with O(m*n) complexity, so putting the passkeys in a password manager is the only realistic solution. But this still breaks the login flow for a very common use case: how do I log in on a device that I don't own? With a password in a password manager I at least have the option of manually typing the password.
The biggest problem, though, is how users are pushed into it without any warning or knowledge of what they're signing up for. I've accidentally set up passkeys just by clicking an okay button a few times in the past and had to go back and figure out how to undo it after being blocked from login on another computer (which computer was I on again?).
> how do I log in on a device that I don't own?
This is solved by passkey-implementing software and devices (with Bluetooth) allowing you to log in with a QR code (Webauthn via CTAP hybrid transport). iOS and Android support this, and it’s generally not a locked-down thing if other devices wanted to do it too.
The only use case left is in “how do I login if all my devices are stolen/fall into a body of water” in which there really isn’t an answer beyond “get (a|your) device back, sign back into your password manager, use that to get back into critical accounts”.
The website should display a qr code you can scan with your phone that allows you to then login, unfortunately a lot of sites don't implement this, and some don't implement backup codes. This isn't the fault of passkeys per se, but of poor implementations.
Steam does this. If I want to login, it shows a barcode I can scan with the app and it logs me in without needing to enter my login information. Phone needs internet access, doesn't need to be on the same network as the device I'm logging in on.
If you're not happy connecting your phone to the network, then how likely is it that you would you be willing to enter your login details on a machine you don't control?
The poorest country I'm familiar with is Zambia, where about 90% of the population have a mobile subscription.
The number of people sharing GP's concerns for reasons of poverty rather than because of their personal security posture will be vanishingly small.
They still exist, though. And in my experience people in vulnerable positions have somewhere between zero and one phones at any given time, without necessarily any good continuity between them.
What if you just can't have internet on your phone? Like if the computer is connected via Ethernet and there's no wifi network you can connect to? What if you're abroad and have no roaming? And the ultimate question about a person that the modern world can barely conceptualize - what if you have a dumbphone? Or what if your smartphone is lost or stolen or dead and you need to access some account? That last one has happened to me, and I sure am glad I know the key passwords that I need for survival.
These may seem like nitpicks, but there's probably a thousand rare scenarios like these that exist. You inevitably have to consider them when you're moving from punching in letters and numbers that you remember in the normal, low-tech way to a complex networked two-device workflow.
If my phone is lost or damaged, I would buy a new, cheap Android phone and sync my passkeys to it. But I am curious why one would need to login to a website in order to survive? If one did have say a severe medical condition that somehow required a website in order to manage, I guess I would concede that maybe passkeys aren't the best way to secure such a life-sustaining website.
> But I am curious why one would need to login to a website in order to survive?
They use bank like Ally or Discover with no physical branches.
They use a mortgage provider like Rocket mortgage with no physical branches.
They use a medication delivery service with no physical customer facing pharmacies.
They have an employer that only facilitates reimbursement for expenses via online tools.
etc...
I guess "survive" has a sliding scale, but if I lost access to critical accounts... my life is going to FUCKING SUCK in a non-trivial and very impactful way almost immediately, on many fronts.
And if your answer to that problem is "well, just call them"... then we're right back to the point the article is making: "An account’s security is still dictated by the weakest recovery method"
Passkeys aren't a meaningful improvement in security - assuming you do actually have decent password hygiene like a password manager.
If your phone is lost, how are you going to sync your passkeys to your new cheap android? In a passkey-only future, you cannot login to your Gmail account without your passkey, which is only on your phone, which you've now just lost.
What am I missing? Either we retain passwords as backup for a lost or stolen device - in which case, all the security concerns are still there - or we only use passkeys, in which case we've added a clear nonrecoverable point of failure in the system.
What confuses me is that for a long while we told people to not write their passwords on a sticky note, to not write them in plain text somewhere.
Then we introduce all these "security" mechanisms that make it literally impossible to recover an account without backup codes.
Where do you store the backup codes? The average person, if they store it at all, will store it on a plain text file or in a sticky note.
Except that this creates a much more brittle system. Systems are safe when they are routinely tested/used. If you routinely have to enter your password, you are aware you need it. If you don't need your password, and you never have to enter your backup codes, you won't feel the importance of them until you actually need them.
It's the whole "I have backups" vs. "the backups actually work" problem except it's pushed onto the users who have zero technical knowledge.
FWIW my break-the-glass actual use of backup codes is for access to my password manager.
Everything else which has ever given me a backup code... gets stored in a secure note in my password manager.
It is just another knowledge-based factor. It is one that they are reasonably sure you aren't spreading around the internet. It is one that the site gets to pick rather than the user. But in reality, they are a often just a way to try to reduce some support and identity verification costs.
The path to get to the password manager is the case where the backup codes truly matter, because without them there may not be a way for support to restore access. Those codes may be your only way of regaining the master encryption key.
But that also winds up being part of the trade-off of security vs user friendliness. Some password managers are way easier to get back into.
Doesn't being able to sync your passkeys by entering your conventional password somewhere eliminate the whole point of passkeys? It just shifts the point where you can enter the password to recover your data to a less convenient place.
When I said "survival", I meant it in the "being able to make do with few resources in a time of crisis" way, not that you will literally die if you can't access an account. Losing a crucial device without a fallback of being able to log in somewhere else quickly can mean immediately losing access to payments (the most crippling, especially if you're not home), being stranded in an airport or even not having an identity document (in countries with digital ID systems). Any of these happening can lead to enormous losses in time, money or quality of life, depending on when and where this event hits you.
What? Did you read the thread? I never said passkeys can only exist on phones. The whole conversation is about "how do I log on with passkeys if something happens to my trusted device?". The parent comments talked about just using your phone, I'm saying there's lots of situations where someone might not have access to either a phone or an internet connection for it. And when this happens, you really don't want to be left without a way to access all vital digital services.
> I'm saying there's lots of situations where someone might not have access to either a phone or an internet connection for it. And when this happens, you really don't want to be left without a way to access all vital digital services.
And when that happens I'm usually glad my credential is a passkey on my keyring, as chances are if I don't have my phone and I haven't auth'd on to some computer I almost certainly don't have access to my password vault. But hey, my passkey works just fine without my phone. And I can trust that once I unplug my authenticator and log out of that session, there's no long lasting credentials left behind. I don't get that with passwords.
You're asking way too much foresight in this thread I guess. There are some people who have lived lives without any series of unfortunate events, they can't even imagine what the world can serve up.
If nearby (some country) any credit card or even my ID card will get me home. I can walk into a branch of my bank and - with some waiting and paper work - I should be able to get enough cash to get myself home.
Abroad I’d head to the nearest consulate of my home country. Might be difficult to get to if it’s in a far away city. Hard to prepare for abstractly.
But the problem is that you can't really backup passkeys and because people are frankly frequent tricked into using them, they have no good recovery options.
I know plenty of people who only have a phone, no other devices. They don't backup that phone, they should but they don't. They don't use a password manager either, maybe they should, but they don't.
My issue with passkeys are that they are designed for a reality that don't exist, or at least only exists for people who are already doing a lot to secure their devices.
They are designed for a wealthy technologically inclined user with a very stable lifestyle and trusted resources and connections to other people. You know, the exact people who developed them.
> But the problem is that you can't really backup passkeys
The individual passkey? Maybe not. But I don't really need to backup the passkey, I can just have backup passkeys or other backup authenticators, including complicated stored one-time passwords.
To answer your earlier hypothetical, I'm out traveling and I'm mugged. Well, hopefully, I'm not mugged in the part of the travels where I'm carrying truly everything at the moment, and I can just go back to the hotel room and re-auth with a device I saved there Problem solved, no big deal. If I lost truly everything while I'm out, I'd do as suggested elsewhere here and call home to get a trusted friend/family member to read me off the one time password saved at home or whatever.
> My issue with passkeys are that they are designed for a reality that don't exist
The reality of passwords being hijacked is absolutely a reality of today and is a constant issue for tons of people.
> I know plenty of people who only have a phone, no other devices.
And I really don't get why we can't also teach these people to also have a little token they use that can also be a part of their online identity. And sure, for certain kinds of accounts have appropriate levels of recoverability, but for the normal authentication workflows its so much better in so many ways.
>They are designed for a wealthy technologically inclined user with a very stable lifestyle and trusted resources and connections to other people. You know, the exact people who developed them.
And here you go posting
> I'd do as suggested elsewhere here and call home to get a trusted friend/family member to read me off the one time password saved at home or whateve
If you read what I posted you see why you live at a particular place of privileged and are seemingly incapable of putting yourself in another persons position where these things do not hold true.
"If you are a white male earning over 100,000 a year in a stable relationship with living family members, excess savings in the bank, in a stable first world country everything is going to be fine and the rest of you can get fucked" --what you keep repeating in different ways.
I mean I was pointing out that you were being racist and sexist from a position of privilege without realizing you were doing so. A kind of systematic failure caused by not realizing our choices as developers has real world impacts on the less privileged.
You're being racist and sexist by assuming wealthy westerners or those in stable relationships or those being able to call home to family are white males. If that's not racist I don't know what is. I don't think it takes being a white male to be able to call home to family when traveling internationally. You're assuming a point of view is invalid due to someone's race and gender.
Quit being racist and projecting identities on people.
This is about people who would have a hard time recovering digital identities. I imagine there were lots of white males fleeing war in Europe who probably struggled to get access to accounts backed with things like passkeys and other forms of 2FA. But I guess to you their struggles don't matter.
Its almost like you including gender and race was just your own projections of your own hatred for a particular group. You should probably think about things when painting people with such a wide brush of "white males" when trying to paint people in a derogatory fashion.
I spent a chunk of my life homeless. Don't project some identity on me that's not valid, or that I just totally lack some perspective due to your assumption of my race or gender. Its not a fair thing to do, its literally racist and sexist.
You could have tried to make your point without throwing in racist and sexist comments by just saying "wealthy western software developers" or whatever.
Great, now I just need to get back home to use my uncompromised accounts (which would have still been protected by my device as long as they're not NSO Group, but whatever). Gee, it seems my tickets back home were taken with my stolen phone! Not to worry, they sent me an email confirmation, so all I need to do is log into my passkey-protected email on my friend's phone and have them download my ticket in addition to theirs, or print it at a public computer. Oh wait
As long as you still have your passport, which you’d need for international travel anyway, you can get your boarding pass at the airport without any hassle.
Wouldn't I have the same problem with passwords? I would lose my phone and be unable to two factor log in to my Gmail account or bank from someone else's device?
With 2FA? Yes. 2FA is almost just as stupid and almost just as bad for regular users as passkeys are, but it got adopted due to historical loophole - by far the most popular form was TOTP delivered via SMS, then "authenticator" apps, both of which keep the code transferable - you can receive it on one device, transfer to yourself or someone else (which is a feature, not a bug) via any channel, and get it to work. Plus, SMS didn't allow for vendor lock-in, which is arguably why they're so hated in security circles (SIM-jacking is real, but doesn't scale anywhere near enough to warrant deprecating it as mechanism for regular users).
I have over 2,000 accounts. The majority of them have unique passwords. I can count the services that have passwords that I know on one hand, with quite a few spare fingers.
> Passkeys were created specifically to close that loophole.
Credential sharing? I have a family share with passwords and passkeys in it. Passkeys most certainly didn't stop this. They did add friction to having a user being duped to share their password to someone claiming to be tech support, since you can no longer request plaintext secrets be sent over arbitrary channels.
> Plus, SMS didn't allow for vendor lock-in, which is arguably why they're so hated in security circles (SIM-jacking is real, but doesn't scale anywhere near enough to warrant deprecating it as mechanism for regular users).
SMS is an ugly user experience and more importantly is expensive. Now a lot of services do emailed codes when they don't have a regulatory reason to require SMS - an even worse user experience, but less expensive.
We have authenticator apps which use a standard OATH setup, and quite a few platforms which have integrated support to try to sand over the worst part of the UX. Unfortunately they just didn't become popular, and OATH fails the same regulatory requirements that emailed codes fail.
No, it's fine. Most common example, I log in to my bank, they send an SMS, I copy the code and paste it into the web site. Works fine and I don't have to pick up my stupid phone, like I would if I used an authenticator app instead.
"and more importantly is expensive."
Not for me. The bank made several billion dollars last quarter, don't think it's a big problem for them, either.
Most common example, I log in to my bank, they say they sent an SMS, I sit there waiting to access my account, then 20 minutes later the SMS finally actually gets delivered after I've given up and left to do something else. Rinse/repeat.
Or another example, someone hijacks my SMS'es, and then they log in as me.
SMS sucks. SMS is insecure.
The amount of times I've experienced customers complaining about SMS 2FA not working well despite it being on their carrier failing to deliver the messages in a timely fashion really showed me how terrible it is.
Dunno what to tell you. Several possible points of failure there. Maybe your bank's system for sending SMS just sucks. Maybe you're in a place with poor mobile network coverage (which is a real problem for SMS 2FA, I agree, having lived in a place with nearly none for several years).
But for me, where I live now, with my bank, and my phone carrier, it works great. Never had a problem that I can think of. Typically, the SMS arrives within seconds. It's the least annoying and most reliable 2FA method I use.
I'm not that worried about potential security issues. Sure, it's a possible problem, but pretty low on the list of things to worry about.
The least annoying and most reliable form of 2FA I use is tapping the touch sensor, doing a biometric face unlock, or typing in my PIN on the device I currently have in my hands. Its miles less annoying and way more reliable.
Glad that works well for you. Does not work well for me. I do not care for laptops except when necessary and have come to loathe my phone. Everything important is done with desktop computers that do not have cameras or touch sensors, so biometrics can't work.
In general, I do not have a "device... currently have in my hands" and having to pick one up and unlock it is annoying.
"Good news then, this also works on desktops, even ones without cameras or touch sensors."
All of the 2FA methods forced on me by my employer and most online services that require it require a phone app. So no, it doesn't work on a desktop.
No, that's not the way it went. I joined the conversation, such as it is, to respond to the guy who said "SMS is an ugly user experience" to say no, it's fine.
I haven't shifted any goalposts: I've basically just reiterated to you that I think it's fine and better than the alternatives. Not a word about passkeys from me.
"SMS is an ugly user experience"...compared to passkeys.
It's not fine that SMS messages get delays. It's not fine that it requires a cell phone plan. It's not fine that it requires you to have cell service. Its not fine because it's insecure.
So many times I've had coworkers and clients frustrated they are pushed to letting their employer force SMS 2FA on their personal numbers. When they could just use passkeys these days baked into their work machines and not have those problems.
Settle down. I responded to the statement "SMS is an ugly user experience and more importantly is expensive" to point out that from my perspective, neither one of those things is true. The "user experience" is fine and to me, the cost is zero.
Then you decided, for some unknown reason, to jump in and... do something, but I'm not sure what. Seems like you're trying to convince me that my own view of my own experience is wrong somehow but — and one might think this would be obvious, but apparently not to you — that's not gonna work.
I think there exists a vein of contempt for anyone not fully embracing our bold new world, so many implementers etc. get the double bonus of alienating and frustrating all of the non conformers
Steam does this. If I want to login, it shows a barcode I can scan with the app and it logs me in without needing to enter my login information. Phone needs internet access, doesn't need to be on the same network as the device I'm logging in on.
I assume the QR code contains a token for the device, which is used by the app to authorize the login and the server automatically logs in the client on the device with the matching token.
Seems a lot safer to me than using my login credentials on a potentially unsafe device.
There's a whole set of fallbacks built in to the standard, including Bluetooth, local network connections, and going via a relay server. All of them eventually end up with your device signing something and handing that back to the browser on the other device to complete the authentication flow.
I cannot speak to how accurate your description is, but this description sounds like there are multiple weak points and multiple attack vectors that open this up to increased risk of compromise, undermining the very security stance it's supposed to provide.
The spec is quite thorough and well thought out in this regard. Despite what it "sounds like" when described, it is very secure, even with a variety of implementations. What is far weaker is that most sites that offer passkeys also offer a multitude of fallback recovery options.
AFAIK, the "scan this QR code" method of signing in with a passkey on a phone on a device w/o the passkey requires Bluetooth. There's some type of handshaking that goes on in order for you to prove you're in physical proximity of the device you are logging in on, to prevent phishing attacks.
Since I might have made someone mad... to clarify, as I understand it, Bluetooth is absolutely required for this "Scan the QR code" flow to work. However, it's also possible the actual authentication traffic to travel over a different pathway (wifi, cellular), but the bluetooth part is always required though to prove proximity. So on e.g. a library computer without Bluetooth enabled, you would not be able to log in with a passkey on your phone.
3. Communication (over websockets or a direct L2CAP channel)
The challenge is that a devices without bluetooth (at least today) don't have another common way to wirelessly judge proximity. A desktop/laptop without bluetooth likely either doesn't have NFC, or has bluetooth disabled by policy and would likely have cross-device passkeys disabled by policy as well.
Is this why I keep getting notifications that such-and-such a website wants access to devices on my local network? I've been denying those left and right lately and didn't understand what on earth they needed access to that for.
Android 17? If yes, then that's because they added a new permission specifically to block apps from LAN access, then bundled it together with "nearby devices" because the concept of "local network" is apparently too difficult for normies to understand or something.
The fact that nearly every passkey implementation is lacking in a variety of very impactful ways... is a very good reason to _not_ use passkeys.
When every passkey interaction is a different variety of user interaction nightmare, it's not very convincing that it's a good idea in the first place
> The website should display a qr code you can scan with your phone that allows you to then login...
A malicious website can display a QR code too. I think this "feature" could cause some of the security issues that passkesys were intended to solve.
I use Keepass and the free tier of Dropbox, to keep my passwords strong and available across multiple devices. (Dropbox not required, you can store the database on a thumb drive.) Backups are no problem.
Keepass (or KeepassXC) stores other data as well, including the correct URLs for sites. So my workflow is simply to click the URL from within Keepass, copy the username and password, and paste them into the login screen. So easy even an adult can do it! (Humor attempt)
For convenience, Keepass database can be unlocked with either a password or biometrics (your fingerprint).
(Not affiliated with Keepass, just a happy longtime user.)
That QR code from a malicious website will not actually communicate with the malicious website with authentication from the correct origin, most QR code phishing scams do not actually use passkeys but rather fall back to trying to get the user's fallback login information (if any). By spec, if the domain does not perfectly match the domain where the passkey was originally created, the phone (or passkey provider) will fail to find a matching passkey. And the domain is derived, not provided by the QR code data (it's all in the spec).
Basically, it's very hard if not basically impossible to spoof a QR code to access the real passkey via a malicious site. (caveat, without already having compromised something like the user's DNS, maybe? Even then the site would likely fail the cryptographic checks.)
The phishing protections of passkeys also works against "malicious QR codes". Which is a great example of why passkeys are kind of good, you stop needing to worry about a lot of attacks.
Yes, the passkey flow QR code contains a public key, and a local key exchange is done over bluetooth to prove proximity. That is used to set up a confidential channel.
That means attackers need more than to display a QR code, they also need a local presence (radio).
> > What if the computer you want to log in on doesn't have Bluetooth?
> Only if they’re a bit old. Nowadays WiFi chips double as Bluetooth chips on newer platforms.
What if the computer you want to log in on doesn't have a WiFi chip?
It doesn't have to be an old computer; for instance, the desktop computer I built last year uses a wired gigabit Ethernet connection to the router right next to it, and doesn't have (or need) any WiFi or Bluetooth chip.
drtz · · focus · HN ↗
If you use multiple devices throughout the day, registering passkeys in all of these systems becomes a big headache with O(m*n) complexity, so putting the passkeys in a password manager is the only realistic solution. But this still breaks the login flow for a very common use case: how do I log in on a device that I don't own? With a password in a password manager I at least have the option of manually typing the password.
The biggest problem, though, is how users are pushed into it without any warning or knowledge of what they're signing up for. I've accidentally set up passkeys just by clicking an okay button a few times in the past and had to go back and figure out how to undo it after being blocked from login on another computer (which computer was I on again?).
judge2020 · · focus · HN ↗
This is solved by passkey-implementing software and devices (with Bluetooth) allowing you to log in with a QR code (Webauthn via CTAP hybrid transport). iOS and Android support this, and it’s generally not a locked-down thing if other devices wanted to do it too.
The only use case left is in “how do I login if all my devices are stolen/fall into a body of water” in which there really isn’t an answer beyond “get (a|your) device back, sign back into your password manager, use that to get back into critical accounts”.
201984 · · focus · HN ↗
limagnolia · · focus · HN ↗
201984 · · focus · HN ↗
Yokolos · · focus · HN ↗
roryirvine · · focus · HN ↗
stonogo · · focus · HN ↗
roryirvine · · focus · HN ↗
The number of people sharing GP's concerns for reasons of poverty rather than because of their personal security posture will be vanishingly small.
arcfour · · focus · HN ↗
rcxdude · · focus · HN ↗
kps · · focus · HN ↗
Only 85%¹ of the population are over the age of 4. Smart kids they've got.
¹ <a href="https://populationpyramids.org/zambia" rel="nofollow">https://populationpyramids.org/zambia
stonogo · · focus · HN ↗
tavavex · · focus · HN ↗
These may seem like nitpicks, but there's probably a thousand rare scenarios like these that exist. You inevitably have to consider them when you're moving from punching in letters and numbers that you remember in the normal, low-tech way to a complex networked two-device workflow.
limagnolia · · focus · HN ↗
horsawlarway · · focus · HN ↗
They use bank like Ally or Discover with no physical branches.
They use a mortgage provider like Rocket mortgage with no physical branches.
They use a medication delivery service with no physical customer facing pharmacies.
They have an employer that only facilitates reimbursement for expenses via online tools.
etc...
I guess "survive" has a sliding scale, but if I lost access to critical accounts... my life is going to FUCKING SUCK in a non-trivial and very impactful way almost immediately, on many fronts.
And if your answer to that problem is "well, just call them"... then we're right back to the point the article is making: "An account’s security is still dictated by the weakest recovery method"
Passkeys aren't a meaningful improvement in security - assuming you do actually have decent password hygiene like a password manager.
epihelix · · focus · HN ↗
What am I missing? Either we retain passwords as backup for a lost or stolen device - in which case, all the security concerns are still there - or we only use passkeys, in which case we've added a clear nonrecoverable point of failure in the system.
AlienRobot · · focus · HN ↗
Then we introduce all these "security" mechanisms that make it literally impossible to recover an account without backup codes.
Where do you store the backup codes? The average person, if they store it at all, will store it on a plain text file or in a sticky note.
Except that this creates a much more brittle system. Systems are safe when they are routinely tested/used. If you routinely have to enter your password, you are aware you need it. If you don't need your password, and you never have to enter your backup codes, you won't feel the importance of them until you actually need them.
It's the whole "I have backups" vs. "the backups actually work" problem except it's pushed onto the users who have zero technical knowledge.
dwaite · · focus · HN ↗
Everything else which has ever given me a backup code... gets stored in a secure note in my password manager.
It is just another knowledge-based factor. It is one that they are reasonably sure you aren't spreading around the internet. It is one that the site gets to pick rather than the user. But in reality, they are a often just a way to try to reduce some support and identity verification costs.
The path to get to the password manager is the case where the backup codes truly matter, because without them there may not be a way for support to restore access. Those codes may be your only way of regaining the master encryption key.
But that also winds up being part of the trade-off of security vs user friendliness. Some password managers are way easier to get back into.
tavavex · · focus · HN ↗
When I said "survival", I meant it in the "being able to make do with few resources in a time of crisis" way, not that you will literally die if you can't access an account. Losing a crucial device without a fallback of being able to log in somewhere else quickly can mean immediately losing access to payments (the most crippling, especially if you're not home), being stranded in an airport or even not having an identity document (in countries with digital ID systems). Any of these happening can lead to enormous losses in time, money or quality of life, depending on when and where this event hits you.
nightski · · focus · HN ↗
vel0city · · focus · HN ↗
tavavex · · focus · HN ↗
vel0city · · focus · HN ↗
And when that happens I'm usually glad my credential is a passkey on my keyring, as chances are if I don't have my phone and I haven't auth'd on to some computer I almost certainly don't have access to my password vault. But hey, my passkey works just fine without my phone. And I can trust that once I unplug my authenticator and log out of that session, there's no long lasting credentials left behind. I don't get that with passwords.
Aren't passkeys great?
pixl97 · · focus · HN ↗
You get mugged.
They take your phone and keyring.
They can't do anything with it since it's locked, but you don't have it.
Aren't passkeys great?
jazzyjackson · · focus · HN ↗
I have a backup key at home
Mission accomplished
rcxdude · · focus · HN ↗
pixl97 · · focus · HN ↗
dwaite · · focus · HN ↗
I have not yet done an actual test within Japan, however.
realityking · · focus · HN ↗
Abroad I’d head to the nearest consulate of my home country. Might be difficult to get to if it’s in a far away city. Hard to prepare for abstractly.
mrweasel · · focus · HN ↗
I know plenty of people who only have a phone, no other devices. They don't backup that phone, they should but they don't. They don't use a password manager either, maybe they should, but they don't.
My issue with passkeys are that they are designed for a reality that don't exist, or at least only exists for people who are already doing a lot to secure their devices.
pixl97 · · focus · HN ↗
They are designed for a wealthy technologically inclined user with a very stable lifestyle and trusted resources and connections to other people. You know, the exact people who developed them.
vel0city · · focus · HN ↗
The individual passkey? Maybe not. But I don't really need to backup the passkey, I can just have backup passkeys or other backup authenticators, including complicated stored one-time passwords.
To answer your earlier hypothetical, I'm out traveling and I'm mugged. Well, hopefully, I'm not mugged in the part of the travels where I'm carrying truly everything at the moment, and I can just go back to the hotel room and re-auth with a device I saved there Problem solved, no big deal. If I lost truly everything while I'm out, I'd do as suggested elsewhere here and call home to get a trusted friend/family member to read me off the one time password saved at home or whatever.
> My issue with passkeys are that they are designed for a reality that don't exist
The reality of passwords being hijacked is absolutely a reality of today and is a constant issue for tons of people.
> I know plenty of people who only have a phone, no other devices.
And I really don't get why we can't also teach these people to also have a little token they use that can also be a part of their online identity. And sure, for certain kinds of accounts have appropriate levels of recoverability, but for the normal authentication workflows its so much better in so many ways.
pixl97 · · focus · HN ↗
>They are designed for a wealthy technologically inclined user with a very stable lifestyle and trusted resources and connections to other people. You know, the exact people who developed them.
And here you go posting
> I'd do as suggested elsewhere here and call home to get a trusted friend/family member to read me off the one time password saved at home or whateve
If you read what I posted you see why you live at a particular place of privileged and are seemingly incapable of putting yourself in another persons position where these things do not hold true.
"If you are a white male earning over 100,000 a year in a stable relationship with living family members, excess savings in the bank, in a stable first world country everything is going to be fine and the rest of you can get fucked" --what you keep repeating in different ways.
vel0city · · focus · HN ↗
Also, you're posting incredibly racist and sexist statements here. Why does race and gender matter here?
Stop being racist.
pixl97 · · focus · HN ↗
vel0city · · focus · HN ↗
Quit being racist and projecting identities on people.
This is about people who would have a hard time recovering digital identities. I imagine there were lots of white males fleeing war in Europe who probably struggled to get access to accounts backed with things like passkeys and other forms of 2FA. But I guess to you their struggles don't matter.
Its almost like you including gender and race was just your own projections of your own hatred for a particular group. You should probably think about things when painting people with such a wide brush of "white males" when trying to paint people in a derogatory fashion.
I spent a chunk of my life homeless. Don't project some identity on me that's not valid, or that I just totally lack some perspective due to your assumption of my race or gender. Its not a fair thing to do, its literally racist and sexist.
You could have tried to make your point without throwing in racist and sexist comments by just saying "wealthy western software developers" or whatever.
tavavex · · focus · HN ↗
realityking · · focus · HN ↗
staticman2 · · focus · HN ↗
pixl97 · · focus · HN ↗
TeMPOraL · · focus · HN ↗
With 2FA? Yes. 2FA is almost just as stupid and almost just as bad for regular users as passkeys are, but it got adopted due to historical loophole - by far the most popular form was TOTP delivered via SMS, then "authenticator" apps, both of which keep the code transferable - you can receive it on one device, transfer to yourself or someone else (which is a feature, not a bug) via any channel, and get it to work. Plus, SMS didn't allow for vendor lock-in, which is arguably why they're so hated in security circles (SIM-jacking is real, but doesn't scale anywhere near enough to warrant deprecating it as mechanism for regular users).
dwaite · · focus · HN ↗
> Passkeys were created specifically to close that loophole.
Credential sharing? I have a family share with passwords and passkeys in it. Passkeys most certainly didn't stop this. They did add friction to having a user being duped to share their password to someone claiming to be tech support, since you can no longer request plaintext secrets be sent over arbitrary channels.
> Plus, SMS didn't allow for vendor lock-in, which is arguably why they're so hated in security circles (SIM-jacking is real, but doesn't scale anywhere near enough to warrant deprecating it as mechanism for regular users).
SMS is an ugly user experience and more importantly is expensive. Now a lot of services do emailed codes when they don't have a regulatory reason to require SMS - an even worse user experience, but less expensive.
We have authenticator apps which use a standard OATH setup, and quite a few platforms which have integrated support to try to sand over the worst part of the UX. Unfortunately they just didn't become popular, and OATH fails the same regulatory requirements that emailed codes fail.
f30e3dfed1c9 · · focus · HN ↗
No, it's fine. Most common example, I log in to my bank, they send an SMS, I copy the code and paste it into the web site. Works fine and I don't have to pick up my stupid phone, like I would if I used an authenticator app instead.
"and more importantly is expensive."
Not for me. The bank made several billion dollars last quarter, don't think it's a big problem for them, either.
vel0city · · focus · HN ↗
Or another example, someone hijacks my SMS'es, and then they log in as me.
SMS sucks. SMS is insecure.
The amount of times I've experienced customers complaining about SMS 2FA not working well despite it being on their carrier failing to deliver the messages in a timely fashion really showed me how terrible it is.
f30e3dfed1c9 · · focus · HN ↗
But for me, where I live now, with my bank, and my phone carrier, it works great. Never had a problem that I can think of. Typically, the SMS arrives within seconds. It's the least annoying and most reliable 2FA method I use.
I'm not that worried about potential security issues. Sure, it's a possible problem, but pretty low on the list of things to worry about.
vel0city · · focus · HN ↗
f30e3dfed1c9 · · focus · HN ↗
In general, I do not have a "device... currently have in my hands" and having to pick one up and unlock it is annoying.
vel0city · · focus · HN ↗
Good news then, this also works on desktops, even ones without cameras or touch sensors. But sure, keep moving goalposts.
f30e3dfed1c9 · · focus · HN ↗
All of the 2FA methods forced on me by my employer and most online services that require it require a phone app. So no, it doesn't work on a desktop.
vel0city · · focus · HN ↗
Which, while I can't speak to your specific employer, tons are moving to support passkeys. Largely because forcing these apps suck and SMS sucks.
f30e3dfed1c9 · · focus · HN ↗
No, that's not the way it went. I joined the conversation, such as it is, to respond to the guy who said "SMS is an ugly user experience" to say no, it's fine.
I haven't shifted any goalposts: I've basically just reiterated to you that I think it's fine and better than the alternatives. Not a word about passkeys from me.
vel0city · · focus · HN ↗
It's not fine that SMS messages get delays. It's not fine that it requires a cell phone plan. It's not fine that it requires you to have cell service. Its not fine because it's insecure.
So many times I've had coworkers and clients frustrated they are pushed to letting their employer force SMS 2FA on their personal numbers. When they could just use passkeys these days baked into their work machines and not have those problems.
f30e3dfed1c9 · · focus · HN ↗
Then you decided, for some unknown reason, to jump in and... do something, but I'm not sure what. Seems like you're trying to convince me that my own view of my own experience is wrong somehow but — and one might think this would be obvious, but apparently not to you — that's not gonna work.
kyleee · · focus · HN ↗
enriquto · · focus · HN ↗
Are you talking about your phone here?
roryirvine · · focus · HN ↗
But, again, if you don't trust your phone then how likely is it that you will be prepared to trust a public computer?
Yokolos · · focus · HN ↗
I assume the QR code contains a token for the device, which is used by the app to authorize the login and the server automatically logs in the client on the device with the matching token.
Seems a lot safer to me than using my login credentials on a potentially unsafe device.
limagnolia · · focus · HN ↗
jerkstate · · focus · HN ↗
cpburns2009 · · focus · HN ↗
cesarb · · focus · HN ↗
1. It might be on a voice network but not on a data network; for instance, if you don't have a data plan.
2. Modern smartphones are actually a hybrid of a traditional cell phone and a traditional PDA, and you might be using it for the PDA part.
jon-wood · · focus · HN ↗
thwarted · · focus · HN ↗
sgerenser · · focus · HN ↗
LocalPCGuy · · focus · HN ↗
sgerenser · · focus · HN ↗
sgerenser · · focus · HN ↗
dwaite · · focus · HN ↗
1. Initiation (QR code, NFC in draft)
2. (Proximal) negotiation (BLE key exchange)
3. Communication (over websockets or a direct L2CAP channel)
The challenge is that a devices without bluetooth (at least today) don't have another common way to wirelessly judge proximity. A desktop/laptop without bluetooth likely either doesn't have NFC, or has bluetooth disabled by policy and would likely have cross-device passkeys disabled by policy as well.
MrMetlHed · · focus · HN ↗
TeMPOraL · · focus · HN ↗
dwaite · · focus · HN ↗
The browser delegates passkey plumbing up to the core platform typically, so it already should have the appropriate permissions.
alienbaby · · focus · HN ↗
RHSeeger · · focus · HN ↗
When every passkey interaction is a different variety of user interaction nightmare, it's not very convincing that it's a good idea in the first place
judge2020 · · focus · HN ↗
Passkey QR codes are only WebAuthn via CTAP hybrid transport (with BLE verified proximity)
wpollock · · focus · HN ↗
A malicious website can display a QR code too. I think this "feature" could cause some of the security issues that passkesys were intended to solve.
I use Keepass and the free tier of Dropbox, to keep my passwords strong and available across multiple devices. (Dropbox not required, you can store the database on a thumb drive.) Backups are no problem.
Keepass (or KeepassXC) stores other data as well, including the correct URLs for sites. So my workflow is simply to click the URL from within Keepass, copy the username and password, and paste them into the login screen. So easy even an adult can do it! (Humor attempt)
For convenience, Keepass database can be unlocked with either a password or biometrics (your fingerprint).
(Not affiliated with Keepass, just a happy longtime user.)
LocalPCGuy · · focus · HN ↗
Basically, it's very hard if not basically impossible to spoof a QR code to access the real passkey via a malicious site. (caveat, without already having compromised something like the user's DNS, maybe? Even then the site would likely fail the cryptographic checks.)
Ferret7446 · · focus · HN ↗
dwaite · · focus · HN ↗
That means attackers need more than to display a QR code, they also need a local presence (radio).
xp84 · · focus · HN ↗
judge2020 · · focus · HN ↗
cesarb · · focus · HN ↗
> Only if they’re a bit old. Nowadays WiFi chips double as Bluetooth chips on newer platforms.
What if the computer you want to log in on doesn't have a WiFi chip?
It doesn't have to be an old computer; for instance, the desktop computer I built last year uses a wired gigabit Ethernet connection to the router right next to it, and doesn't have (or need) any WiFi or Bluetooth chip.
RHSeeger · · focus · HN ↗
reaperducer · · focus · HN ↗
That's a technocratic reply, not one that is useful in the real world.
As noted by the person you're replying to, it's not his computer. It's a public library.
Most computers in non-residential settings will have various features locked down, including Bluetooth.