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Microsoft exec called AI scraping 'the largest theft of labor in human history'

955 points · 841 comments · pluc

  1. jacquesm · · focus · HN ↗
    It's the robbery of all of our culture to sell it back to us at a mark-up. Crimes this large are crimes against humanity. So many people whose life's work got appropriated without consideration, compensation or consent it is baffling.

    It is said that at the heart of every great fortune there is a great crime, so it should be no surprise that the most valuable companies on the planet will most likely result from this crime. And given that justice can be bought by those with the most money you can forget about anything coming of this.

    1. godwinson__4-8 · · focus · HN ↗
      Our "culture" has long been the province of corporations. In prior epochs it was still the product of patronage and power.

      At least with LLMs we can glimpse an escape route to that which generations of humans have strived for - a world in which the labor required of each human to lead a flourishing life approaches zero.

      Instead of fixating on a remedy that seeks to criminalize AI, maybe focus on the relatively rather achievable goal of redistributing LLM gains. Would that not be the most desirable justice? What is your alternative, and would you foreclose the future in the name of a past that never really existed in the first place?

      1. jacquesm · · focus · HN ↗
        > At least with LLMs we can glimpse an escape route to that which generations of humans have strived for - a world in which the labor required of each human to lead a flourishing life approaches zero.

        Let me fix that for you: A world in the the value of the labor of each human approaches zero.

        1. echelon · · focus · HN ↗
          The value will tend towards infinity [1] because we can keep building more data centers. This will allow us to apply tokens to solving every problem we can conceive.

          The cost will tend towards zero because competition is intense and there appear to be zero moats and ample improvements from every direction.

          If these systems have low costs, that means they will be usable by the broad population and that their utility will be widely accessible.

          Industrialization led to iPhone, PlayStation, Spotify, and Waymo.

          AI will lead to personal chefs, contractors, assistants, drivers, tutors, climbing partners, ...

          AI will lead to people making their own PlayStation games, their own music and streaming services (I already have), their own custom smartphones (a future personal project - vibe hardware). And your robot will drive you cross country on vacation while you sleep in the car.

          [1] Not actually infinity because earth [2] has finite resources, but the S-curve will look like it for awhile.

          [2] Until the robots leave earth, anyway

          1. TeMPOraL · · focus · HN ↗
            > but the S-curve will look like it for awhile.

            Yeah, S-curve should be classified as fallacy, because it rarely is. Economic and technological growth is a stack of S-curves, where one very specific facet may hit limits and taper off, only for equivalent, complementary or alternative facet to take off in its place. Added up, there's no sign of the exponent stopping any time soon, not until hitting real limits, or (probably more likely) some general catastrophy that shuts down human civilization.

          2. idbnstra · · focus · HN ↗
            [2] this is why we need georgism, i.e. shifting taxes to finite resources like land, minerals, etc.
          3. jplusequalt · · focus · HN ↗
            >AI will lead to personal chefs, contractors, assistants, drivers, tutors, climbing partners, ...

            You need to show how having X more data centers is somehow going to translate into affordable, highly advanced robots in the immediate future.

            There are hard problems about robotics we don't yet know how to solve. Not to mention, who the fuck is going to buy them if AI takes their jobs?

            1. echelon · · focus · HN ↗
              You think people are going to stop watching celebrities and influencers just because there are AIs and robots?

              Do you think people will stop dating, trying to impress mates, buying luxury, etc.? Neither candlelight dinner to a robot no a Dior manufactured by robots have the same allure. There's a huge industry around this.

              Sports aren't going to go away. Huge industry.

              People aren't going to stop making art. I know a ton of artists who have embraced AI that are doing even bolder work using the tools. (I was a filmmaker pre-AI, and I know a lot of people in this field.)

              People aren't going to stop traveling. And consuming. And eating human food and consuming human experiences.

              There are going to be all new kinds of businesses and opportunities that spring up. OpenAI and Anthropic are not going to be the only two employees. They won't be staffed by only agents.

              1. jplusequalt · · focus · HN ↗
                The economy cannot just transition over night, or even within a few years, to quickly absorb a labor shock the size you're describing.

                Also, you have not addressed how we're going suddenly to develop the robots required for your future.

          4. scott_weber · · focus · HN ↗
            > the value will tend towards infinity

            It may be the case that the potential output of a worker engaging in the productive process goes arbitrarily high. But the that won't matter, if they're not permitted to. Given a choice between involving a human worker who will demand compensation, and a fully general robot, which will the owner class choose?

            The vast majority of human intelligence is already squandered: millions of potential geniuses in impoverished places, suppressed by lack of opportunity to flourish. It's not about the quality or quantity of intelligence. It's about who controls it.

            The fruits of the industrial revolution didn't end up in the hands of the worker by divine grace, or by some natural law. They were won by the hard struggles of the labour movements, by leveraging their indispensibility to the process of production.

            If we want the utopia you imagine to be accessible to ordinary people, workers must cease being so eager to build their replacements, and be prepared to collectively struggle for their share. But if we are lulled to complacency by the notion that this will be a passive process, that struggle will not be necessary, then prospects are grim.

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