For one thing, I just genuinely think WebComponents are a badly designed API that is weird and hard to use (how many people are using WebComponents without at least Lit, if not something much bigger?), and React is a relatively well-designed library that isn't really that bloated. There's not really much of a point in trying to argue since this is inherently subjective and people with different values are going to irreconcilably disagree. But, if you don't respect that some people hold this position, we're not going to make any progress towards a consensus.
On the note of <dialog>, I recently tried to use <dialog> in a (React) application, and it did work pretty well, but I also found that in Firefox it is only practically possible to do a fade-in animation, not a fade-out one. That isn't really a critical issue for me, it is just an animation after all, but I find it unfortunate. I also find <dialog> to be a weirdly shaped API too: I don't really hate it, but I don't love it either. It feels awkward.
I find this implicit view that developers that, for example, prefer React over WebComponents are making a suboptimal choice to be rather condescending and not really in the spirit of trying to see things from the other side. Wouldn't you want to focus on the strongest arguments and not the weakest ones? Maybe you've literally never heard anyone complain about WebComponents or Shadow DOM, but if so, I find that surprising. Certainly here on HN, I've seen a fair bit of WebComponents hate.
I do, FWIW, realize that I've particularly focused on WebComponents, which this article doesn't actually name directly. But, I assume we're not talking about ditching React to implement our own component framework on top of the traditional DOM APIs, because that's what React already does...
> React is a relatively well-designed library that isn't really that bloated.
I am one of the people who irreconcilably disagree. I think svelte and solidjs are - obviously - technically superior. But it leaves the question of why react is still so popular. I think the biggest reason is all the non-technical aspects of react:
- They have excellent documentation. And have, from day 1.
- They produced videos, sample projects, and all sorts of "getting started" documentation.
- They ran react conferences, teaching everyone who would listen about "1 way data flows" and pretending like they invented FP.
The amount of hype around it made it really feel like the next big thing. Between the very well funded react team and the outside developer community, there was real momentum. People learned it in droves. Taught students. Built websites with it. When react's poor design choices caused issues (and there were a lot of issues), then you were blamed for holding it wrong. (Component classes, state, CSS, hooks, webpack and babel taking ages, big bundle sizes, slow re-renders, and so on.)
By the time the next generation of JS frameworks broke onto the scene, there was a collective moan from the community. "Oh no, not again - we just relearned how to make websites." React was the wave, and in its wake we all had Framework fatigue.
Software doesn't get popular without a lot of work by dedicated people. I really admire the work standards bodies do. But they rarely bother to take the time to produce documentation, videos, tutorials, starter projects, blogs and podcasts and all the rest of that work.
There really isn't anything in react that is inherently "bloated", most companies were indeed using it wrong, or at least in a naive way. Over-reliance on useEffects, re-render issues, non-memoized components etc. When used correctly, react 18 provides really fast web apps on whatever scale (small one pager app to massive enterprise apps).
React is very similar to PHP in this regard. PHP has (had?) several major design flaws, and yet it became the default for people with less experience.
I don't think that React is as problematic as PHP ever was, and also frameworks like Laravel have improved the PHP experience tremendously, so there is now a way for less experienced people to use it.
IMO: the problem here is pretending that everyone has an innate right to use React right when it's clearly a library that works better when people have a bit more experience than the average web dev.
We as an industry tell people "don't do your own crypto, it's hard to get it right". We don't blame crypto for being hard, or demand new frameworks. Same for things like assembly, C++, Rust, formal proofs, writing an OS, operating BGP infrastructure, etc.
But with React it has to be "kid gloves on", otherwise it's shit?
This is perhaps a bigger problem in our industry: lack of experience is not seem as an individual problem, and we blame-shift, blame marketing, blame Facebook, Dan Abramov, trends...
Perhaps we should be saying "React is not for beginners", same as "don't do crypto".
Web dev is special. The industry has spent the last 20 years sacrificing almost everything to make building web sites more beginner friendly. There is an expectation that the "full-stack" (everything between node and react) should be effortless, that is absent from other fields. "one click to deploy" in not a thing in crypto, in embedded or in kernel dev, for instance; whereas it's expected that a junior web dev is productive from day one. That's just normal industrialization, specializing jobs and then making them simpler, starting where the numbers are larger.
Ironically, piling up simplistic technologies have created quite complex houses of cards in places. HTTP itself being the most obvious example of a tech meant to be simple and quick to grasp that morphed into a super complex, ineficient and insecure gremlin of which nobody who is not a specialist (or an AI) has a full picture anymore.
Nobody I ever worked with ever said anything even remotely close to that first paragraph.
"Full stack should be effortless"? What? This is definitely not coming from anyone other than two groups: random HN people with an axe to grind, or people trying to diminish the value of the profession.
Hiring for web is difficult, salaries are historically good, people complain about complexities, including yourself: "quite complex", "super complex", "nobody has a full picture".
Nevertheless: React proves that it's not effortless. There are complexities in there and kicking and screaming saying "it was supposed to be easy!!!" won't change the situation.
"It should be simple" yeah Crypto should be simple as well, so there are no bugs. But it's not.
jchw · · focus · HN ↗
On the note of <dialog>, I recently tried to use <dialog> in a (React) application, and it did work pretty well, but I also found that in Firefox it is only practically possible to do a fade-in animation, not a fade-out one. That isn't really a critical issue for me, it is just an animation after all, but I find it unfortunate. I also find <dialog> to be a weirdly shaped API too: I don't really hate it, but I don't love it either. It feels awkward.
I find this implicit view that developers that, for example, prefer React over WebComponents are making a suboptimal choice to be rather condescending and not really in the spirit of trying to see things from the other side. Wouldn't you want to focus on the strongest arguments and not the weakest ones? Maybe you've literally never heard anyone complain about WebComponents or Shadow DOM, but if so, I find that surprising. Certainly here on HN, I've seen a fair bit of WebComponents hate.
I do, FWIW, realize that I've particularly focused on WebComponents, which this article doesn't actually name directly. But, I assume we're not talking about ditching React to implement our own component framework on top of the traditional DOM APIs, because that's what React already does...
josephg · · focus · HN ↗
I am one of the people who irreconcilably disagree. I think svelte and solidjs are - obviously - technically superior. But it leaves the question of why react is still so popular. I think the biggest reason is all the non-technical aspects of react:
- They have excellent documentation. And have, from day 1.
- They produced videos, sample projects, and all sorts of "getting started" documentation.
- They ran react conferences, teaching everyone who would listen about "1 way data flows" and pretending like they invented FP.
The amount of hype around it made it really feel like the next big thing. Between the very well funded react team and the outside developer community, there was real momentum. People learned it in droves. Taught students. Built websites with it. When react's poor design choices caused issues (and there were a lot of issues), then you were blamed for holding it wrong. (Component classes, state, CSS, hooks, webpack and babel taking ages, big bundle sizes, slow re-renders, and so on.)
By the time the next generation of JS frameworks broke onto the scene, there was a collective moan from the community. "Oh no, not again - we just relearned how to make websites." React was the wave, and in its wake we all had Framework fatigue.
Software doesn't get popular without a lot of work by dedicated people. I really admire the work standards bodies do. But they rarely bother to take the time to produce documentation, videos, tutorials, starter projects, blogs and podcasts and all the rest of that work.
ricardobayes · · focus · HN ↗
josephg · · focus · HN ↗
If everyone is using react wrong, react has a design flaw. Other frameworks aren't slow by default.
whstl · · focus · HN ↗
I don't think that React is as problematic as PHP ever was, and also frameworks like Laravel have improved the PHP experience tremendously, so there is now a way for less experienced people to use it.
IMO: the problem here is pretending that everyone has an innate right to use React right when it's clearly a library that works better when people have a bit more experience than the average web dev.
We as an industry tell people "don't do your own crypto, it's hard to get it right". We don't blame crypto for being hard, or demand new frameworks. Same for things like assembly, C++, Rust, formal proofs, writing an OS, operating BGP infrastructure, etc.
But with React it has to be "kid gloves on", otherwise it's shit?
This is perhaps a bigger problem in our industry: lack of experience is not seem as an individual problem, and we blame-shift, blame marketing, blame Facebook, Dan Abramov, trends...
Perhaps we should be saying "React is not for beginners", same as "don't do crypto".
rixed · · focus · HN ↗
Ironically, piling up simplistic technologies have created quite complex houses of cards in places. HTTP itself being the most obvious example of a tech meant to be simple and quick to grasp that morphed into a super complex, ineficient and insecure gremlin of which nobody who is not a specialist (or an AI) has a full picture anymore.
whstl · · focus · HN ↗
"Full stack should be effortless"? What? This is definitely not coming from anyone other than two groups: random HN people with an axe to grind, or people trying to diminish the value of the profession.
Hiring for web is difficult, salaries are historically good, people complain about complexities, including yourself: "quite complex", "super complex", "nobody has a full picture".
Nevertheless: React proves that it's not effortless. There are complexities in there and kicking and screaming saying "it was supposed to be easy!!!" won't change the situation.
"It should be simple" yeah Crypto should be simple as well, so there are no bugs. But it's not.
Maybe learn to value other people's jobs.
[deleted] · · focus · HN ↗
[deleted]