For one thing, I just genuinely think WebComponents are a badly designed API that is weird and hard to use (how many people are using WebComponents without at least Lit, if not something much bigger?), and React is a relatively well-designed library that isn't really that bloated. There's not really much of a point in trying to argue since this is inherently subjective and people with different values are going to irreconcilably disagree. But, if you don't respect that some people hold this position, we're not going to make any progress towards a consensus.
On the note of <dialog>, I recently tried to use <dialog> in a (React) application, and it did work pretty well, but I also found that in Firefox it is only practically possible to do a fade-in animation, not a fade-out one. That isn't really a critical issue for me, it is just an animation after all, but I find it unfortunate. I also find <dialog> to be a weirdly shaped API too: I don't really hate it, but I don't love it either. It feels awkward.
I find this implicit view that developers that, for example, prefer React over WebComponents are making a suboptimal choice to be rather condescending and not really in the spirit of trying to see things from the other side. Wouldn't you want to focus on the strongest arguments and not the weakest ones? Maybe you've literally never heard anyone complain about WebComponents or Shadow DOM, but if so, I find that surprising. Certainly here on HN, I've seen a fair bit of WebComponents hate.
I do, FWIW, realize that I've particularly focused on WebComponents, which this article doesn't actually name directly. But, I assume we're not talking about ditching React to implement our own component framework on top of the traditional DOM APIs, because that's what React already does...
> React is a relatively well-designed library that isn't really that bloated.
I am one of the people who irreconcilably disagree. I think svelte and solidjs are - obviously - technically superior. But it leaves the question of why react is still so popular. I think the biggest reason is all the non-technical aspects of react:
- They have excellent documentation. And have, from day 1.
- They produced videos, sample projects, and all sorts of "getting started" documentation.
- They ran react conferences, teaching everyone who would listen about "1 way data flows" and pretending like they invented FP.
The amount of hype around it made it really feel like the next big thing. Between the very well funded react team and the outside developer community, there was real momentum. People learned it in droves. Taught students. Built websites with it. When react's poor design choices caused issues (and there were a lot of issues), then you were blamed for holding it wrong. (Component classes, state, CSS, hooks, webpack and babel taking ages, big bundle sizes, slow re-renders, and so on.)
By the time the next generation of JS frameworks broke onto the scene, there was a collective moan from the community. "Oh no, not again - we just relearned how to make websites." React was the wave, and in its wake we all had Framework fatigue.
Software doesn't get popular without a lot of work by dedicated people. I really admire the work standards bodies do. But they rarely bother to take the time to produce documentation, videos, tutorials, starter projects, blogs and podcasts and all the rest of that work.
> I am one of the people who irreconcilably disagree. I think svelte and solidjs are - obviously - technically superior.
I don't really think that React is necessarily the best possible library, but there is certainly more to a UI library than simply compiling out the need for diffing. For one thing, I find JSX to be a relatively unobtrusive addition to the language. It is implemented by a variety of things and is a pretty simple transform as far as things go; basically pure sugar, it's possible to avoid it if you want. It could be better designed than it is, but I think it's at least sufficiently general - it is feasible to say, use an alternate library with JSX, like Preact.
Svelte on the other hand by its nature just simply requires a more complicated compiler step to work and deliver on its promises. That's a trade-off. Whether you think it's worth it is up to you, but presenting it as an objectively technically superior design is disingenuous. Superior how? Runtime costs? Sure, but it does beg the question how much. Will a well-optimized Svelte app feel much better than a well-optimized React app?
> The amount of hype around it made it really feel like the next big thing.
We are a really long way away from the hype of React. I would argue that hype stopped carrying React a long time ago. Momentum? Sure, but if something was truly dramatically better, then I think it would have a fair shake at beating out React.
The problem is that the web isn't microbenchmarks and developer experience does matter to some degree, so the trade-offs that seem so good on paper don't always pan out.
I'm not a hater of Svelte. On paper, it is a very elegant idea. However, when I actually tried to use it, I genuinely came out feeling that it was simply not for me, and the benefits it has are not enticing enough for me to continue experimenting. My React apps are not particularly slow or bad at handling huge amounts of data. (One of my apps has no problem handling a file grid of over 1 million items, and in fact, I run into issues with browsers not being able to handle a large enough scroll area long before performance of my React code is a problem. That is good enough for me.)
I should probably be more balanced when criticising react. React moved the state of the art forward when it came out. Compared to the other options we had at the time, it was excellent. But it's not better now. At least not for technical reasons.
> Superior how? Runtime costs? Sure, but it does beg the question how much. Will a well-optimized Svelte app feel much better than a well-optimized React app?
Virtual dom diffing is pure overhead. It increases the JS bundle size (react is big). Vdom diffing is really slow. And it's simply not necessary.
I agree that if you make heavy use of comparator functions, react apps can feel ok to use. But most sites don't do that. Look at the new reddit site. Insanely slow and insanely inefficient. They've improved it a lot since the new design landed. But it's still 19mb of javascript or something, and much slower than it should be. Maybe reddit is only slow because they're holding react wrong. But if everyone holds react wrong, it's react's fault.
If you don't like the asthetics of svelte, check out SolidJS. Solid is aesthetically almost identical to react. Solid - like react - only needs compilation if you're using jsx. The difference between solid and react is that solid only executes component functions once. Reactivity is implemented via fine-grained signals. Solidjs apps perform better, because there's no vdom. The default way to use solid is already fast.
> if something was truly dramatically better, then I think it would have a fair shake at beating out React.
Eh. Lots of old technologies are still in use. Most software engineers don't enjoy learning new frameworks every few years. And react still works fine, even if there are other options today. I think solid and svelte are better, but they might not be better enough to displace react for the average web developer.
If you like react, give solidjs a try. It's essentially "react with signals", which I find to be a significant improvement. You get much smaller JS bundles, better performance and better state management. All while keeping a lot of the best parts of react's design philosophy. It's great.
jchw · · focus · HN ↗
On the note of <dialog>, I recently tried to use <dialog> in a (React) application, and it did work pretty well, but I also found that in Firefox it is only practically possible to do a fade-in animation, not a fade-out one. That isn't really a critical issue for me, it is just an animation after all, but I find it unfortunate. I also find <dialog> to be a weirdly shaped API too: I don't really hate it, but I don't love it either. It feels awkward.
I find this implicit view that developers that, for example, prefer React over WebComponents are making a suboptimal choice to be rather condescending and not really in the spirit of trying to see things from the other side. Wouldn't you want to focus on the strongest arguments and not the weakest ones? Maybe you've literally never heard anyone complain about WebComponents or Shadow DOM, but if so, I find that surprising. Certainly here on HN, I've seen a fair bit of WebComponents hate.
I do, FWIW, realize that I've particularly focused on WebComponents, which this article doesn't actually name directly. But, I assume we're not talking about ditching React to implement our own component framework on top of the traditional DOM APIs, because that's what React already does...
josephg · · focus · HN ↗
I am one of the people who irreconcilably disagree. I think svelte and solidjs are - obviously - technically superior. But it leaves the question of why react is still so popular. I think the biggest reason is all the non-technical aspects of react:
- They have excellent documentation. And have, from day 1.
- They produced videos, sample projects, and all sorts of "getting started" documentation.
- They ran react conferences, teaching everyone who would listen about "1 way data flows" and pretending like they invented FP.
The amount of hype around it made it really feel like the next big thing. Between the very well funded react team and the outside developer community, there was real momentum. People learned it in droves. Taught students. Built websites with it. When react's poor design choices caused issues (and there were a lot of issues), then you were blamed for holding it wrong. (Component classes, state, CSS, hooks, webpack and babel taking ages, big bundle sizes, slow re-renders, and so on.)
By the time the next generation of JS frameworks broke onto the scene, there was a collective moan from the community. "Oh no, not again - we just relearned how to make websites." React was the wave, and in its wake we all had Framework fatigue.
Software doesn't get popular without a lot of work by dedicated people. I really admire the work standards bodies do. But they rarely bother to take the time to produce documentation, videos, tutorials, starter projects, blogs and podcasts and all the rest of that work.
jchw · · focus · HN ↗
I don't really think that React is necessarily the best possible library, but there is certainly more to a UI library than simply compiling out the need for diffing. For one thing, I find JSX to be a relatively unobtrusive addition to the language. It is implemented by a variety of things and is a pretty simple transform as far as things go; basically pure sugar, it's possible to avoid it if you want. It could be better designed than it is, but I think it's at least sufficiently general - it is feasible to say, use an alternate library with JSX, like Preact.
Svelte on the other hand by its nature just simply requires a more complicated compiler step to work and deliver on its promises. That's a trade-off. Whether you think it's worth it is up to you, but presenting it as an objectively technically superior design is disingenuous. Superior how? Runtime costs? Sure, but it does beg the question how much. Will a well-optimized Svelte app feel much better than a well-optimized React app?
> The amount of hype around it made it really feel like the next big thing.
We are a really long way away from the hype of React. I would argue that hype stopped carrying React a long time ago. Momentum? Sure, but if something was truly dramatically better, then I think it would have a fair shake at beating out React.
The problem is that the web isn't microbenchmarks and developer experience does matter to some degree, so the trade-offs that seem so good on paper don't always pan out.
I'm not a hater of Svelte. On paper, it is a very elegant idea. However, when I actually tried to use it, I genuinely came out feeling that it was simply not for me, and the benefits it has are not enticing enough for me to continue experimenting. My React apps are not particularly slow or bad at handling huge amounts of data. (One of my apps has no problem handling a file grid of over 1 million items, and in fact, I run into issues with browsers not being able to handle a large enough scroll area long before performance of my React code is a problem. That is good enough for me.)
josephg · · focus · HN ↗
> Superior how? Runtime costs? Sure, but it does beg the question how much. Will a well-optimized Svelte app feel much better than a well-optimized React app?
Virtual dom diffing is pure overhead. It increases the JS bundle size (react is big). Vdom diffing is really slow. And it's simply not necessary.
I agree that if you make heavy use of comparator functions, react apps can feel ok to use. But most sites don't do that. Look at the new reddit site. Insanely slow and insanely inefficient. They've improved it a lot since the new design landed. But it's still 19mb of javascript or something, and much slower than it should be. Maybe reddit is only slow because they're holding react wrong. But if everyone holds react wrong, it's react's fault.
If you don't like the asthetics of svelte, check out SolidJS. Solid is aesthetically almost identical to react. Solid - like react - only needs compilation if you're using jsx. The difference between solid and react is that solid only executes component functions once. Reactivity is implemented via fine-grained signals. Solidjs apps perform better, because there's no vdom. The default way to use solid is already fast.
> if something was truly dramatically better, then I think it would have a fair shake at beating out React.
Eh. Lots of old technologies are still in use. Most software engineers don't enjoy learning new frameworks every few years. And react still works fine, even if there are other options today. I think solid and svelte are better, but they might not be better enough to displace react for the average web developer.
If you like react, give solidjs a try. It's essentially "react with signals", which I find to be a significant improvement. You get much smaller JS bundles, better performance and better state management. All while keeping a lot of the best parts of react's design philosophy. It's great.