Does the Songhai empire really have nothing besides size, gold and slave trading? Surely they must have had something. What about architecture? Ancient Greeks, Romans, ancient Chinese, etc., all had impressive achievements, and they were around many centuries before the Songhai empire. Perhaps even Meso-American empires and civilizations had achievements relatively speaking, especially considering that they were much more isolated from the rest of the world than the Songhai empire.
Its cultural and scholarly centers were Timbuktu and Djenne. They were effectively inaccessible to Europeans during their golden age, but they had established connections to Morocco and Egypt. Hundreds of thousands of historical manuscripts were preserved in Timbuktu. The manuscripts are still largely unstudied, though I guess the digitization efforts should have finished by now.
That was back when Aksum had a large Greek minority and other minorities, and even in some periods of time had coinage with Greek writing.
Also, Aksum probably overlaps much more with Eritrea than with Ethiopia. Aksum was also mostly surrounded by desert, mountains, at least one volcano, and the sea, and its territory tended to be close to the sea, also for trade. Surprisingly isolated from the rest of Africa south of the Sahara.
Edited, to tclancy:
Rude.
But also, I made this comment before your comment, check the timestamps.
Ethiopia has been a great power since then too: under Constantine I (c. 1450) it was the preeminent power in East Africa, and while the kingdom subsequently fragmented it managed to recombine by the 1800s in time to take a stand against European colonialism. None of that was because of a "Greek minority", African people are perfectly capable of governing themselves (with the right social structures in place, as with all people).
A large Greek minority? Please share your sources for that because I'd be very interested in reading that.
AFAIU, Greeks were there, but as traders who came because it was a prosperous kingdom. For the same reason other groups from around that region also had a presence, and vice-versa. Prosperous nations tend to exchange populations and build economic, cultural, and political ties.
But if you're implying the presence of Greeks or an adoption of Greek culture was the reason for the rise of the Aksum empire... I'd certainly like to read those sources.
The very early adoption of Christianity might have had something to do with it, at least in terms of creating a unifying identity within and among the broader region. But Greeks weren't the only Christians. Ethiopia already had ties to non-Greek Levante and non-Greek Arabian peninsula communities, and probably Persian traders, as well--Persians were the Greeks of the Indian Ocean. Not coincidentally, the Horn of Africa sits at the nexus of multiple major economic spheres and sea routes. The Aksum Empire originated in the highlands, but for much of their time they controlled or had a strong presence along the coast.
They had coinage with Greek writing in some periods, as I mentioned, which implies that Greeks must have had a very large influence on Aksum. It was only centuries later that they switched to non-Greek, native writing, possibly around the decline of Aksum.
> The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea mentions that the Aksumite state imported brass (Ancient Greek: ὀρείχαλκος, oreíkhalkos), "which they use[d] for ornaments and for cutting as money", and they imported "a little money (denarion) for [use by] foreigners who live there."
Your other comments just seemed uninformed, but the thesis you are actually pushing is white civilizations are inherently better. Stop for a minute and think about other possibilities why you don’t know a lot about an empire that wasn’t part of what we in the west consider our lineage (Greece, Rome); is it not possible we didn’t value keeping other societies’ histories alive in the same way?
I’ll skip pointing out much of what you know about ancient scholars may be due to Arabic countries keeping them alive during the Dark Ages.
csense · · focus · HN ↗
[1] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum
shevy-java · · focus · HN ↗
abenga · · focus · HN ↗
_menelaus · · focus · HN ↗
thenthenthen · · focus · HN ↗
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miohtama · · focus · HN ↗
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songhai_Empire" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songhai_Empire
oppaoppa · · focus · HN ↗
rawTruthHurts · · focus · HN ↗
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card_zero · · focus · HN ↗
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-Hewn_Churches,_Lalibela" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-Hewn_Churches,_Lalibela
??? This comment was dead the second I posted it, how/why is that? Oh, visible again now, fair enough.
Maybe I should have included some context: these are a couple of Ethiopian cultural things that I think are neat. Uh, that's about it, really.
andruby · · focus · HN ↗
Given (enough) time, it’ll also happen to the ones at the peak now.
oppaoppa · · focus · HN ↗
Also, Aksum probably overlaps much more with Eritrea than with Ethiopia. Aksum was also mostly surrounded by desert, mountains, at least one volcano, and the sea, and its territory tended to be close to the sea, also for trade. Surprisingly isolated from the rest of Africa south of the Sahara.
Edited, to tclancy:
Rude.
But also, I made this comment before your comment, check the timestamps.
<a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49945710">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49945710
And it mentions ancient Chinese and Meso-American civilizations.
achierius · · focus · HN ↗
oppaoppa · · focus · HN ↗
[dead]
wahern · · focus · HN ↗
AFAIU, Greeks were there, but as traders who came because it was a prosperous kingdom. For the same reason other groups from around that region also had a presence, and vice-versa. Prosperous nations tend to exchange populations and build economic, cultural, and political ties.
But if you're implying the presence of Greeks or an adoption of Greek culture was the reason for the rise of the Aksum empire... I'd certainly like to read those sources.
The very early adoption of Christianity might have had something to do with it, at least in terms of creating a unifying identity within and among the broader region. But Greeks weren't the only Christians. Ethiopia already had ties to non-Greek Levante and non-Greek Arabian peninsula communities, and probably Persian traders, as well--Persians were the Greeks of the Indian Ocean. Not coincidentally, the Horn of Africa sits at the nexus of multiple major economic spheres and sea routes. The Aksum Empire originated in the highlands, but for much of their time they controlled or had a strong presence along the coast.
oppaoppa · · focus · HN ↗
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endybis" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endybis
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aksumite_currency" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aksumite_currency
> The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea mentions that the Aksumite state imported brass (Ancient Greek: ὀρείχαλκος, oreíkhalkos), "which they use[d] for ornaments and for cutting as money", and they imported "a little money (denarion) for [use by] foreigners who live there."
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum
> Aksum also had a sizeable Greek population, which resided in the cities of Ptolemais Theron and Adulis.[52]
tclancy · · focus · HN ↗
I’ll skip pointing out much of what you know about ancient scholars may be due to Arabic countries keeping them alive during the Dark Ages.
tclancy · · focus · HN ↗
Merhawie · · focus · HN ↗