Congratulations to zig team. Good to know they are trying pragmatic approach to LLM now. I left the zig eco-system due to zig core members hostile behaviour toward humans not just LLM, so good to see the change they are becoming pragmatic. For me I am slowly porting the same work to odin language [1].
Background is I created issue and one pull request to fix them in zig compiler version 0.16.1 issue numbers 36812, 36811 (you cannot access them as my account is banned can see my fork at [2]). Respecting the community’s no AI stand. For these specific issues I wrote the issue and code myself and not let AI write it. Spend a lot of time on it. Subsequently without any notice my account was banned because my projects on github using zig uses LLM. This was done without message or any information. My account was banned on zig repository.
I can now understand the other side of coin how bun team might have been treated with disdain when they used LLM.
I wrote an email and left the zig community, have many work in zig but slowly moving them to odin.
I feel personal disdain should not be spilled on to people who are pragmatic on using LLM. I was a very big evangelist of zig for their no LLM stand and promoted them among my community, but with poor treatment by community I just left. You can still see projects I wrote in zig [3].
I have worked with postgreql community since 1997 and python community since 1998. Never felt such hostile community. So all the best and I wish zig continue its progress
> because my projects on github using zig uses LLM
To be clear, we do not block people for merely having LLM-related projects. Obviously we have opinions about LLMs in a broader context, but in terms of rules enforcement, we only care about LLM usage taking place within official Zig spaces.
It's possible you were blocked in error. LLM detection is not foolproof, so unless it's an open-and-shut case, our usual approach is to just unblock if people reach out to us by email.
I would understand if its by error but based on how it was banned it did feel deliberate. Also I have written email to core member before making a decision to leave the community. I think a community can only thrive when they are nice to humans. Here it felt like zig is worse then a oligopoly where few core members can block anyone without any reason and don't even have a courtesy to send a message. I worked with python community since its beginning, same worked with linux community since 1992, never seen such attitude even though both of the projects were driven by benevolent dictators, but they did care about the community around it. I still have one major work [1] in zig, which I will still release but after this won't work on zig. Zig community felt like a hostile ologipoly of few core members without proper due process, when it comes to treating humans.
Well of course the block itself was deliberate. By "in error" I meant that we might have misjudged the text as being LLM.
Who did you email, when, and did you get a response? We've all been very busy leading up to the release, and most of the team is also currently traveling for SYCL.
Regarding sending a message, consider our side: We're tired of having our time wasted on slop, so we don't also want to have to write formal block notifications to people we block on suspicion of using LLMs. I'm fully aware that this can lead to an unfortunate situation like this, however. For what it's worth, this is why we want to move to an invite tree for Zig development; it'll allow us to create a high-trust environment where this kind of suspicion is unnecessary.
Thanks for the reply alex. I send an email to andrew, but not to reinstate my account just to send the details of the incident before I move on.
I wish all the success to zig because diversity keeps the innovation alive.
The reason I moved on is, after 2 times consecutively facing the same issue, I felt I will be helpless in zig community and felt like my voice will be muzzled without any reason done in an opaque and abrupt manner. I prefer to err on the side of openness than caution.
Initially I posted my project on ziggit forum. Respecting the rules, in my post I did mention use of LLM extensively on those projects. One of the post asked "If I used LLM", I did not get a chance to replay, right away my account was blocked on ziggit for 1 year. Thats ok I accepted it, I thought I should respect the community.
In the second incident I opened a small PR with an issue which I fixed for my own project, later I created a PR. I did understand that zig community do not accept LLM written post or PR on their official repository, so I went ahead and wrote the issue myself, also for PR I wrote the code, run the test locally on my own PC, tested if it compiles and pass the test on my osx and linux. Since it was my first PR, did not expect it to be accepted and thought may be some core developer will pick the code and merge or write another code.
Also I created one more issue which was closed by the core developer with a message its fixed in 0.17, I thanked the person.
I saw one issue from another person facing similar issue as mine. I give a comment and also put a code snippet for him to try on his own machine, since on my machine it compiled correctly and created windows cross compiled library on my linux machine. But then suddenly I cannot see my issues, my comments and PR. I initially thought issue with my own system it was not so. Then thought may be codeberg blocked it, but that was not the issue either. Then I spend significant amount of time going through forgejo documentation to find out that a person running a project can remove the person from a repo and their whole history and work will be gone from that repo. I have other repo on codeberg which worked fine with my account, so then tried to create new issue in zig repo to test if I am being blocked.
This is when I realized then my account has been banned by some zig core developer deliberately without a single message, including no message that my account has been blocked. This is like a tyranny of minority and community do not build like this.
A community requires a due and a transparent process even if its benevolent dictatorship. Since it happened twice in a span of just 2 weeks, it really felt like zig is not an open community and breeds strong disdain towards people working in AI or LLM. I then realized that I made too early decision on bun incident, where I took the side of the zig core team, now could understand the other side of the coin.
I have been following zig since it was started, just didn't take the plunge, but once I took the plunge and met hostile community, personally I thought I should move on. Still I believe in diversity of opinion so will still be happy to see zig thrive as a language because I liked its simplicity and also diversity breeds innovation.
vikrantrathore · · focus · HN ↗
Background is I created issue and one pull request to fix them in zig compiler version 0.16.1 issue numbers 36812, 36811 (you cannot access them as my account is banned can see my fork at [2]). Respecting the community’s no AI stand. For these specific issues I wrote the issue and code myself and not let AI write it. Spend a lot of time on it. Subsequently without any notice my account was banned because my projects on github using zig uses LLM. This was done without message or any information. My account was banned on zig repository.
I can now understand the other side of coin how bun team might have been treated with disdain when they used LLM.
I wrote an email and left the zig community, have many work in zig but slowly moving them to odin.
I feel personal disdain should not be spilled on to people who are pragmatic on using LLM. I was a very big evangelist of zig for their no LLM stand and promoted them among my community, but with poor treatment by community I just left. You can still see projects I wrote in zig [3].
I have worked with postgreql community since 1997 and python community since 1998. Never felt such hostile community. So all the best and I wish zig continue its progress
[1] <a href="https://github.com/insanai/sqlodin" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/insanai/sqlodin
[2] <a href="https://codeberg.org/vyomtech/zig" rel="nofollow">https://codeberg.org/vyomtech/zig
[3] <a href="https://github.com/insanai/zenfmt" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/insanai/zenfmt
alexrp · · focus · HN ↗
To be clear, we do not block people for merely having LLM-related projects. Obviously we have opinions about LLMs in a broader context, but in terms of rules enforcement, we only care about LLM usage taking place within official Zig spaces.
It's possible you were blocked in error. LLM detection is not foolproof, so unless it's an open-and-shut case, our usual approach is to just unblock if people reach out to us by email.
vikrantrathore · · focus · HN ↗
[1] <a href="https://github.com/insanai/sibuna" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/insanai/sibuna
alexrp · · focus · HN ↗
Who did you email, when, and did you get a response? We've all been very busy leading up to the release, and most of the team is also currently traveling for SYCL.
Regarding sending a message, consider our side: We're tired of having our time wasted on slop, so we don't also want to have to write formal block notifications to people we block on suspicion of using LLMs. I'm fully aware that this can lead to an unfortunate situation like this, however. For what it's worth, this is why we want to move to an invite tree for Zig development; it'll allow us to create a high-trust environment where this kind of suspicion is unnecessary.
vikrantrathore · · focus · HN ↗
I wish all the success to zig because diversity keeps the innovation alive.
The reason I moved on is, after 2 times consecutively facing the same issue, I felt I will be helpless in zig community and felt like my voice will be muzzled without any reason done in an opaque and abrupt manner. I prefer to err on the side of openness than caution.
alexrp · · focus · HN ↗
Sorry, would you mind clarifying what you mean by this? I'm only aware of the one incident?
vikrantrathore · · focus · HN ↗
In the second incident I opened a small PR with an issue which I fixed for my own project, later I created a PR. I did understand that zig community do not accept LLM written post or PR on their official repository, so I went ahead and wrote the issue myself, also for PR I wrote the code, run the test locally on my own PC, tested if it compiles and pass the test on my osx and linux. Since it was my first PR, did not expect it to be accepted and thought may be some core developer will pick the code and merge or write another code.
Also I created one more issue which was closed by the core developer with a message its fixed in 0.17, I thanked the person.
I saw one issue from another person facing similar issue as mine. I give a comment and also put a code snippet for him to try on his own machine, since on my machine it compiled correctly and created windows cross compiled library on my linux machine. But then suddenly I cannot see my issues, my comments and PR. I initially thought issue with my own system it was not so. Then thought may be codeberg blocked it, but that was not the issue either. Then I spend significant amount of time going through forgejo documentation to find out that a person running a project can remove the person from a repo and their whole history and work will be gone from that repo. I have other repo on codeberg which worked fine with my account, so then tried to create new issue in zig repo to test if I am being blocked.
This is when I realized then my account has been banned by some zig core developer deliberately without a single message, including no message that my account has been blocked. This is like a tyranny of minority and community do not build like this.
A community requires a due and a transparent process even if its benevolent dictatorship. Since it happened twice in a span of just 2 weeks, it really felt like zig is not an open community and breeds strong disdain towards people working in AI or LLM. I then realized that I made too early decision on bun incident, where I took the side of the zig core team, now could understand the other side of the coin.
I have been following zig since it was started, just didn't take the plunge, but once I took the plunge and met hostile community, personally I thought I should move on. Still I believe in diversity of opinion so will still be happy to see zig thrive as a language because I liked its simplicity and also diversity breeds innovation.