Can you offer any specifics? The ToC looks quite extensive, which to me indicates a lot of design decisions needed to be made (probably involving many people) and unclear how that process might be accelerated by AI.
Unless you're suggesting the language design should also be vibed together?
> Unless you're suggesting the language design should also be vibed together?
Sounds like a fun little project, have a bunch of AI pushers fork Zig and see if they can do a better job. I want to see results, not snarky HN comments. After all this progress, ChatGPT should be able to one-shot a better language since AI is so good now... right?
One-shot, no, but there are a bunch of people pretty much solo-building their personal ideal language with AI and it's going quite well. You need to know just enough about language design to be dangerous, but you don't need to be a seasoned pro.
I'm doing it myself: <a href="https://zena-lang.dev/" rel="nofollow">https://zena-lang.dev/
It seems like such a strange thing to do, building a language that you aren't going to write by hand. It's guaranteed to perform worse at higher cost, fill up a lot more of the context window, and burn a ton more reasoning tokens.
If you're using AI, a language with a large training set is going to win.
I guess it depends on whether you will write everything in an AI assisted fashion or not. There's benefits to languages that are quick and easy to read by the author even if the LLM is doing the writing, because most code still benefits from human review above and beyond the review that agents provide. Language popularity certainly helps but it seems like for moderately popular languages [1] the cost you pay for a lack of popularity is quite modest.
A language you just created isn't going to be moderately popular, so it's just going to put you at a disadvantage -- and you're not even going to be writing in it, so why the self-kneecapping?
I mean what does "put you at a disadvantage" even mean concretely? To use a less popular language, it means you need to load up context related to the semantics of your language, load context on how to invoke tools to make sure the syntax with your language is correct, load up context related to each tool call you make (which will be more numerous in a niche language), and load up context on architectural decisions that might be specific to your language. All of this is simply a token cost. By forcing a model to load an initial amount of context per harness turn you also effectively shorten the max context window beyond which the model becomes stupid (which itself is much shorter than the max context length.)
Obviously it's not like people are specifically trimming each and every prompt they give a model to tokenmax their models to get the best output / input prompt, we instead live in a spectrum of how many tokens of input and context we're willing to provide to a model to make progress. If the cost of those tokens is low enough for the problem domain you're working in, then it's fine. For some the readability of a personal language may outstrip any of the token costs that one needs to pay to use it. Alternatively maybe you want something like an array language (J, K, APL, etc) which allows array programming and optimizations that conventional PLs just can't do. Maybe you want your language to compile to a target that is highly portable. There's actually a lot of stuff out there that previously wasn't feasible but with LLMs-as-force-multiplier absolutely is.
I also suspect the space is a continuum. There may be pareto optimal points, such as DSLs built atop languages, that are both highly readable but also fairly token efficient.
It's both a token cost and a performance cost; there's only so much that documentation can do, compared to a ton of RL on top of millions of lines of examples. The space is a continuum, but the more you stray from the trained path the higher the cost you pay.
> the more you stray from the trained path the higher the cost you pay.
Note the LLMs are trained on language semantics far beyond the mainstream ones, so language design can become quite exotic without straying too much from the training. You really do have to measure these things, I don’t see how you can make a confident assertion without data.
jabedude · · focus · HN ↗
abc42 · · focus · HN ↗
greggoB · · focus · HN ↗
Unless you're suggesting the language design should also be vibed together?
nvme0n1p1 · · focus · HN ↗
Sounds like a fun little project, have a bunch of AI pushers fork Zig and see if they can do a better job. I want to see results, not snarky HN comments. After all this progress, ChatGPT should be able to one-shot a better language since AI is so good now... right?
spankalee · · focus · HN ↗
I'm doing it myself: <a href="https://zena-lang.dev/" rel="nofollow">https://zena-lang.dev/
0c3ca83 · · focus · HN ↗
If you're using AI, a language with a large training set is going to win.
Karrot_Kream · · focus · HN ↗
[1]: <a href="https://danluu.com/pl-tokens/" rel="nofollow">https://danluu.com/pl-tokens/
0c3ca83 · · focus · HN ↗
Karrot_Kream · · focus · HN ↗
Obviously it's not like people are specifically trimming each and every prompt they give a model to tokenmax their models to get the best output / input prompt, we instead live in a spectrum of how many tokens of input and context we're willing to provide to a model to make progress. If the cost of those tokens is low enough for the problem domain you're working in, then it's fine. For some the readability of a personal language may outstrip any of the token costs that one needs to pay to use it. Alternatively maybe you want something like an array language (J, K, APL, etc) which allows array programming and optimizations that conventional PLs just can't do. Maybe you want your language to compile to a target that is highly portable. There's actually a lot of stuff out there that previously wasn't feasible but with LLMs-as-force-multiplier absolutely is.
I also suspect the space is a continuum. There may be pareto optimal points, such as DSLs built atop languages, that are both highly readable but also fairly token efficient.
0c3ca83 · · focus · HN ↗
cmontella · · focus · HN ↗
Note the LLMs are trained on language semantics far beyond the mainstream ones, so language design can become quite exotic without straying too much from the training. You really do have to measure these things, I don’t see how you can make a confident assertion without data.