Arxiv papers are not supposed to signify anything. The only reason that people may derive some kind of career benefits is because Google Scholar indexes it and counts it towards the h-index etc. All that metric-based career-optimization going on is quite broken anyway, so this is fixing things from the wrong end as well. (The better end: stop hiring and promoting people based on Arxiv paper counts, so there is no incentive to flood it)
The hosting cost side I can understand, though they received quite some funding recently, but I assume it's not going towards actually running the site, but to who knows what broader impacts and so on.
Moderation for Arxiv is a silly idea. It already shouldn't be taken as a quality signal that something is able to be up on Arxiv. Obviously they should remove illegal stuff, but beyond that, requiring moderation is a misunderstanding of their role and reason for popularity.
If hosting is too expensive, I guess an alternative aggregator could also arise. With just metadata and a hash of the pdf that can be hosted anywhere, and as the sumbitter, if you move the file, you can change the URL.
The main reason for Arxiv's existence is the timestamping and the easy referencing. (Though I admit that the stable hosting is also a pretty important part, but they mention moderation effort as the reason, not the hosting costs.)
Academia is losing sight of the forest for the trees, can't see more than an arm's length ahead of their noses.
> Moderation for Arxiv is a silly idea. It already shouldn't be taken as a quality signal that something is able to be up on Arxiv.
It sounds like you're advocating for arXiv to become viXra. On <a href="https://vixra.org/all/2610" rel="nofollow">https://vixra.org/all/2610 the second paper is currently "Correct Interpretation of the Great Discoveries in Particle Physics: I. Reconsidering the Higgs Boson via Vedic Vortex Structure", followed by a paper arguing that classical electrodynamics is bogus, "Gauss’s Flux Theorem Does not Hold in Time-Varying Electric Fields", and then "On the Boundary Problem in the Origins of Matter, Life, and Consciousness".
I don't think arXiv will continue to receive "quite some funding" if this is what it contains.
Vixra suffers from the "Witch Hunt problem" because Arxiv exists.
If Arxiv was the only game in town and it allowed everything, the result would be more like GitHub or Substack. That is, you wouldn't be able to trust everything hosted there, and a lot of it would be low-quality promotional garbage, with filtering moved to a different layer.
You could do some kind of karma system for example, where the prestige of your institution, your own karma, number of citations, papers published in high impact-factor journals etc would affect karma weight. You could have journals be like "awesome-x" lists on Github, with authors who have already been published there able to endorse other papers. I believe the mathematics community is trying that.
People who submit to and review for conferences have known for quite some time how random that process is. Also they are slow. In a field that advances leaps and bounds on a monthly time scale, holding a conference half a year later or publishing a journal article more than a year later is just equal to irrelevance. The reason conferences still matter is because of legacy systems that are slow to adapt to the new reality (and because of networking opportunities).
But actually, thinking back, 10 years ago there may have been more of a stigma around a paper that was only on arxiv.
If your result is not worth publishing in a journal a year or two from now, it't not worth submitting to arXiv today. Just write a blog post about it and move on. And maybe write a paper once you have discovered something of more lasting value.
It's worth publishing somewhere because PhD students need to graduate. And there are many PhD students because it's a ticket to industry labs. And because many professorships around popular topics were created. Those people need to graduate, so there have to be papers. Blog posts don't let you graduate. A good arxiv paper that just got rejected for unfair reasons, but otherwise gets a good community reception can still count towards your graduation if you have a sensible advisor.
Not sure if you understand how the sausage gets made. People won't spend effort at scale (there are always exceptions) on stuff that's not incentivized, such as blog posts. If you work on something, the goal is to make it count. But if you fail on that, arXiv is a second best option.
Also, papers that get published at conferences also get out of date pretty fast anyway. That's just how fast moving fields work.
But things may end up moving the way you are saying, as long as incentives keep up.
Journals (1-2 years) -> conferences (6 months) -> arxiv (weeks to write once the work is done, then days to publish) -> next thing (immediate AI writeup, code, results, tests, open scripts, weights, full reproducibility, full access allowed for other AIs to scrape and learn from, and reorganize and recombine on a speed of days or hours from result to adoption)
It's not been my experience that papers published in CS conferences get outdated quickly. Maybe AI/ML is different, but it's a weird edge case that should not dominate the discussion. Even CS as a whole is an outlier, because most fields that use arXiv don't have conference papers. If the expectations of AI/ML or even the wider CS are too different, maybe they could start a preprint repository of their own.
One of weird aspects of CS research is the tendency to publish small papers. In more experimental fields, a paper may represent years of work for the first author. But CS students often finish multiple projects every year. Maybe it's because of the focus on conferences. You want to attend conferences (to build your networks, and because it's interesting and valuable), but you often don't get reimbursed if you don't have anything to present. Students from other fields can just present their work in progress, but CS students have to come up with publishable results.
Maybe CS should also strive towards bigger projects. Instead of publishing individual results (which someone often improves a year or two later), the papers could focus on the outcomes of entire research directions. That way you are more likely to produce something of lasting value. Something that is worth writing up and rewriting and polishing, until you understand the ideas much better than after the initial write-up.
> Maybe AI/ML is different, but it's a weird edge case that should not dominate the discussion
I wonder about the recent proportions. Growth in ML papers has been mind boggling and I wouldn't be surprised if a major part of Arxiv's submission spike was in AI ML topics.
> Maybe CS should also strive towards bigger projects.
The current rule of thumb is that you need at least three accepted papers in good venues to graduate with a PhD. Until that changes, the incentives point towards trying to publish often. And PIs want this because they also get evaluated in this publish or perish system. This is my main point. Throttling is a stopgap solution because academia doesn't want to admit its internal problems that have been boiling over already before AI.
What makes publishing it valuable? At best it's a second round of PR for the paper, after it was initially released on the arXiv. Reviewers sometimes have good suggestions, but you can get suggestions from people on your arXiv paper and post a v2.
From the perspective of advancing science, journals seem mostly pointless and most of their benefit could be had at next to no cost if we just agreed to publish on the arXiv and pair it with a review system.
From the perspective of advancing scientific careers, because of how founders and institutions treat arXiv papers, you have to still publish in a journal, and so people keep publishing in journals.
But like, at least in physics time passes at the speed of arXiv posts, and getting published usually happens after it's been cited many times already. And if people are already incorporating it into the web of knowledge/responding to it etc., then what did the journal do?
In my experience (in CS, bioinformatics, and genomics), the first round of reviews often improves the paper substantially. You are getting feedback from people outside your usual peer group, and they tend to notice things people closer to you don't.
And writing is thinking. Because you are forced to iterate on the text over a long period of time, your understanding of the topic improves and you learn to express the ideas better. Your job as a scientist is creating new knowledge, and the initial publication of new results is only the first step towards that.
> You could do some kind of karma system for example, where the prestige of your institution, your own karma, number of citations, papers published in high impact-factor journals etc would affect karma weight.
The story that academia likes to tell itself about itself is that it is skeptical and iconclastic and objectively evaluates each piece of science on its own virtues and it doesn't matter who says it. A wrong thing said by someone famous is still wrong, and truth spoken by a nobody is still truth. Of course reality is a bit further from this ideal. But outright admitting it would be hard.
It's a bit like the "in America, anyone can become president!".
If you can't understand Vedic Vortex Structure without such karma system, your understanding will be bad anyway. Even legitimate publications are easy to misinterpret and sensationalize, social dynamics affects it too.
bonoboTP · · focus · HN ↗
The hosting cost side I can understand, though they received quite some funding recently, but I assume it's not going towards actually running the site, but to who knows what broader impacts and so on.
Moderation for Arxiv is a silly idea. It already shouldn't be taken as a quality signal that something is able to be up on Arxiv. Obviously they should remove illegal stuff, but beyond that, requiring moderation is a misunderstanding of their role and reason for popularity.
If hosting is too expensive, I guess an alternative aggregator could also arise. With just metadata and a hash of the pdf that can be hosted anywhere, and as the sumbitter, if you move the file, you can change the URL.
The main reason for Arxiv's existence is the timestamping and the easy referencing. (Though I admit that the stable hosting is also a pretty important part, but they mention moderation effort as the reason, not the hosting costs.)
Academia is losing sight of the forest for the trees, can't see more than an arm's length ahead of their noses.
kragen · · focus · HN ↗
It sounds like you're advocating for arXiv to become viXra. On <a href="https://vixra.org/all/2610" rel="nofollow">https://vixra.org/all/2610 the second paper is currently "Correct Interpretation of the Great Discoveries in Particle Physics: I. Reconsidering the Higgs Boson via Vedic Vortex Structure", followed by a paper arguing that classical electrodynamics is bogus, "Gauss’s Flux Theorem Does not Hold in Time-Varying Electric Fields", and then "On the Boundary Problem in the Origins of Matter, Life, and Consciousness".
I don't think arXiv will continue to receive "quite some funding" if this is what it contains.
miki123211 · · focus · HN ↗
If Arxiv was the only game in town and it allowed everything, the result would be more like GitHub or Substack. That is, you wouldn't be able to trust everything hosted there, and a lot of it would be low-quality promotional garbage, with filtering moved to a different layer.
You could do some kind of karma system for example, where the prestige of your institution, your own karma, number of citations, papers published in high impact-factor journals etc would affect karma weight. You could have journals be like "awesome-x" lists on Github, with authors who have already been published there able to endorse other papers. I believe the mathematics community is trying that.
kragen · · focus · HN ↗
bonoboTP · · focus · HN ↗
But actually, thinking back, 10 years ago there may have been more of a stigma around a paper that was only on arxiv.
jltsiren · · focus · HN ↗
bonoboTP · · focus · HN ↗
Not sure if you understand how the sausage gets made. People won't spend effort at scale (there are always exceptions) on stuff that's not incentivized, such as blog posts. If you work on something, the goal is to make it count. But if you fail on that, arXiv is a second best option.
Also, papers that get published at conferences also get out of date pretty fast anyway. That's just how fast moving fields work.
But things may end up moving the way you are saying, as long as incentives keep up.
Journals (1-2 years) -> conferences (6 months) -> arxiv (weeks to write once the work is done, then days to publish) -> next thing (immediate AI writeup, code, results, tests, open scripts, weights, full reproducibility, full access allowed for other AIs to scrape and learn from, and reorganize and recombine on a speed of days or hours from result to adoption)
jltsiren · · focus · HN ↗
One of weird aspects of CS research is the tendency to publish small papers. In more experimental fields, a paper may represent years of work for the first author. But CS students often finish multiple projects every year. Maybe it's because of the focus on conferences. You want to attend conferences (to build your networks, and because it's interesting and valuable), but you often don't get reimbursed if you don't have anything to present. Students from other fields can just present their work in progress, but CS students have to come up with publishable results.
Maybe CS should also strive towards bigger projects. Instead of publishing individual results (which someone often improves a year or two later), the papers could focus on the outcomes of entire research directions. That way you are more likely to produce something of lasting value. Something that is worth writing up and rewriting and polishing, until you understand the ideas much better than after the initial write-up.
bonoboTP · · focus · HN ↗
I wonder about the recent proportions. Growth in ML papers has been mind boggling and I wouldn't be surprised if a major part of Arxiv's submission spike was in AI ML topics.
> Maybe CS should also strive towards bigger projects.
The current rule of thumb is that you need at least three accepted papers in good venues to graduate with a PhD. Until that changes, the incentives point towards trying to publish often. And PIs want this because they also get evaluated in this publish or perish system. This is my main point. Throttling is a stopgap solution because academia doesn't want to admit its internal problems that have been boiling over already before AI.
joshjob42 · · focus · HN ↗
From the perspective of advancing science, journals seem mostly pointless and most of their benefit could be had at next to no cost if we just agreed to publish on the arXiv and pair it with a review system.
From the perspective of advancing scientific careers, because of how founders and institutions treat arXiv papers, you have to still publish in a journal, and so people keep publishing in journals.
But like, at least in physics time passes at the speed of arXiv posts, and getting published usually happens after it's been cited many times already. And if people are already incorporating it into the web of knowledge/responding to it etc., then what did the journal do?
jltsiren · · focus · HN ↗
And writing is thinking. Because you are forced to iterate on the text over a long period of time, your understanding of the topic improves and you learn to express the ideas better. Your job as a scientist is creating new knowledge, and the initial publication of new results is only the first step towards that.
bonoboTP · · focus · HN ↗
The story that academia likes to tell itself about itself is that it is skeptical and iconclastic and objectively evaluates each piece of science on its own virtues and it doesn't matter who says it. A wrong thing said by someone famous is still wrong, and truth spoken by a nobody is still truth. Of course reality is a bit further from this ideal. But outright admitting it would be hard.
It's a bit like the "in America, anyone can become president!".
logicchains · · focus · HN ↗
"Science progresses one funeral at a time" - Max Planck.
GoblinSlayer · · focus · HN ↗