My wife and I were out recently looking at ceiling fans to replace the one in our dining room, which has committed no crimes, other than having the appearance of being very much from the 1980s.
I was taken aback by how few of the fans had replaceable lightbulbs! In the entire store there were maybe three or four options with a replaceable bulb!
Call me crazy, but a nonreplaceable LED is a complete dealbreaker. I go through so many LED bulbs! I don't know if my electricity is like particularly bad or if that's just normal? The first LED bulb I ever bought (Shout out EarthLED) in 2008 for like $30 is still going strong, but every bulb I buy these days lasts like two years tops.
When an LED bulb dies, it's typically not the LED, it's the electronics driving it. This is worsened substantially by heat. If you have recessed downlights or something, that's close to worst-case for an LED bulb.
Lights with non-replaceable bulbs can actually be far better, because they can be designed for their environment. Recessed downlights with built-in LEDs for example can thermally couple the LEDs directly to the metal housing, so the heat can be dissipated into the surrounding air, instead of into the recess.
Maybe in theory. In practice, the Phoebus Cartel was a real thing, and they limited lightbulb lifespans, worldwide. The same thing exists today, albeit more because companies that sell lightbulbs want to keep selling them, instead of putting themselves out of business. So, many LED lightbulbs are intentionally designed to fail early.
The only place where this doesn’t happen is in the country of Dubai. Because of national law, lightbulbs sold there are required to have very long lifespans. That’s why there is a world-wide grey market business for taking existing LED lightbulbs apart, snipping off a resistor so that they pull about half the amperage and then putting them back together, and suddenly their lifespan is increased by 10-100x. This is called a “doobie”, after the name of the country. Check out “bigclivedotcom” on YouTube if you want to see this in action.
You will notice this if you buy Philips Ultra Definition bulbs in Dubai, versus the same bulbs sold at the same amount of lumen output from the UK or elsewhere in the world. The “doobie” version has twice as many LED filaments inside, compared to the UK version. Same price, way different life span. Philips is one of the better manufacturers of lightbulbs, and nowhere remotely close to the only one doing this.
With regards to LED light fixtures (ones that don’t allow you to screw in your own bulb), most manufacturers do the same thing. They’re designed to fail early. Who wants light fixture styling that is fifty years old, just because the LED lights inside haven’t failed yet? They want to make you buy new fixtures every couple of years, just like they do for bulbs.
Yes, there are exceptions in both cases. But they are the rare exceptions, not the rule. And if you haven’t studied up on the Phoebus Cartel, you can start with the article on Wikipedia.
I'm well aware of the Phoebus Cartel. It's not as straightforward as often reported. Have a look at Technology Connections: <a href="https://youtu.be/zb7Bs98KmnY" rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/zb7Bs98KmnY
Dubai isn't a country. It's a city in the United Arab Emirates.
The Dubai bulb isn't some trick Big Lightbulb doesn't want you to know about, it's an engineering tradeoff: lower current on more filaments gives you higher efficiency and lower temperature but at higher cost and with substantially lower light quality (CRI).
You'll find that after EU energy labeling, there are products available to European consumers that well exceed the specifications of the "Dubai" bulbs. Look for EU energy class A. They often come with a 5-year warranty and rated lifespan of 50000 hours. The "Dubai" bulbs were rated for 25000 hours. You'll also find though that they're substantially more expensive and usually don't have a CRI above 90.
Regarding planned obsolescence, in many cases I can believe that a product will fail earlier than it would if designed for longevity. Rather than planned obsolescence, I believe this is simply a result of being cheap, a consequence of the race to the bottom. If you're buying cheap Chinese fixtures for $10, or cheap Chinese bulbs for $2, you're not going to get a high-quality, long-lasting product.
If you want products that last a long time, buy them and use them properly. If you want bright lights, make sure they're adequately cooled. Consider buying lower-voltage fixtures and bulbs so that you can have a separate power supply and don't put the full ~230V to ~3V conversion in a tiny space.
I would love to buy an LED bulb that lasts a long time. I thought the reason for their premium price was supposed long lifetime. Mine all last as long as the older bulbs but cost 5X as much. Where can I buy such bulbs in the US?
There can be a lot of variation. From what I've seen, I'd say 2-5 years is a typical lifespan for an LED bulb. We have some recessed lights in the kitchen that require brighter bulbs, and those typically last only 1-2 years. But then we also have some other (non-replaceable!) recessed lights that are 14 years old and still work fine.
There was one time I bought some cheap ones from Amazon, and several of them failed within a few months. There was also an LED bulb in the front porch light (so, outside) that lasted around 10 years, despite being outside and used daily. I had several of that same type and that particular one lasted longer than all of the others, where the others were all inside and not installed upside down. So yeah, it varies.
My Philips Hue bulbs are going strong for just over 7 years now. They are the premium bulb in my experience. I've bought other LED strips using controllers compatible with Hue, but they died where there are obvious burned points all along the strip. We all have different experiences that will counter each other, so it's frustrating to no end on finding trust worthy devices.
Regardless of all of that frustration, thank the gods we no longer have to deal with CFL
I have yet to replace any of the LED bulbs I bought at Costco in 2013. I dunno who manufactured them, or what kind of unobtainium they're made from, or whether I will jinx them by talking about it, but they just... Keep on going. Basic Edison screw-ins, from the first generation of bulbs that emitted warm light, that I've used exactly as I would any light-bulb. They weren't really expensive - maybe $2-3 apiece, though I really don't remember - and, I dunno. I hear everyone constantly complaining about their LED bulbs, and maybe they've been enshittified since, but I have absolutely no complaints.
I've been using LED lights for over a decade. Can't say I have replaced any of them.
And nowadays you can get E27 LED bulbs for 75 cents at IKEA, which is cheaper than incandescents ever were. Not sure how they managed that, because it sounds insane.
Biggest problem of leds is we have no good standards. Classic screw in bulb makes no sense with LEDs. Other formats usually mean you are screwed when you have to replace. So far LED strips seem the best way. A bit of soldering but you can replace them by parts.
Screw in bulbs make plenty of sense. You are not going to get people to convert to LEDs by forcing them to replace every single fixture in their home. That would be ridiculousmaxxing.
It would be nice to have an updated standard for newer buildings, though. In practice fewer and fewer fittings are using screw-in lightbulbs at all but there's not another standard.
What happens when something does go wrong though? Now, you have to replace the entire thing instead of just simply replacing a bulb. If only we had some other previous existing examples of fancy tech that used non-replaceable parts requiring a full replacement...
I think they're suggesting a lightbulb equivalent of going from USB-A connectors to USB-C. Replaceable bulbs in sockets that are just as easy to use, but with a smaller profile.
The problem is going from mains voltage to 3.3v means some sort of waste heat. Rewiring the whole house to 12v is one idea I've seen, but again, total house rewire and fixture replacement. In the mean time, it's A9 bulbs with LED electronics going from 120v to 3.3v generating heat. Making cheap electronics means that heat will kill the electronics. Making good electronics at a higher retail price is the solution, but consumers are not educated enough so all they see is sticker shock.
Your comparison of USB-A to USB-C is nonsensical and does not actually acknowledge the issue of why the existing screw in bulb direct replacement have issues
Screw-in sockets are more durable and long-lasting than any replacement so-far, most of which have been replaced again (remember those weird fluorescent mini-bulb sockets?).
12V is too high for your LEDs, you still have the power supply. 12 volts is not near enough voltage for a house. You can get around it with very big wires but copper is extremely expensive. Even in cars, 12 volts is borderline. Trucks are fairly often go to 24 or higher voltage because even at the size of a large truck (semi), higher voltage is an advantage.
Well, we can certainly argue with 110 or 220 is a better voltage for a house. It is quite clear that 12 volts is too low.
It doesn't need to be for the whole house, it just needs to be for the lighting fixtures. Obviously nobody is going to use a microwave or blender on 12V. It's not like our bulbs plug into NEMA 5-15 outlets. Having good DC standard voltages and plugs would be incredibly useful. Don't bother running 12V everywhere, but like after the 120V light switch go to a single controller that then drives the lights for that room. Or have that be in the box with the switch, although that might still have the same kind of cramped heat issue.
And it's not like we need to just stop producing Edison socket styles tomorrow. But let's make sane standards today.
Yeah 24VDC or 48VDC would make more sense but tbh you only need to drive the LEDs with it.
At 48VDC you could run 16AWG like 100ft and still be fine as long as the lights pull around 60W or less all together (which works out to ~12 lights on a circuit). And that circuit would only add another ~2W or so in power losses when energized.
That circuit is essentially what power over ethernet does today so you could replace romex with PoE Type 3/Type 4 plenum rated ethernet and it'd be like half the cost.
And if you really want to optimise for losses you could put the switches on the ethernet data line and use that for sensing rather than running the PoE circuit out to each light switch (and then de-energise the PoE circuit when the switches report off). Bonus points in that this would allow you to "reprogram" which light switch controls which circuit without needing to do any re-wiring.
My vote would be 24v or 48v. You cannot power substantial LED with 3.3v. You’d spend a fortune rolling out ultra-thick gauge wire to avoid pissing away non-trivial amounts of power into heat. Many, many LED strips come as 24v. It’s the perfect balance of wire gauge for the amount of power you’ll be drawing.
The lightbulb that you're throwing away also contains all the same electronics that a larger light fixture does, just in a smaller and less thermally efficient space.
Mounting options that allow larger LED lights allow you to use lights that are more thermally efficient without sacrificing any replaceability. JIS C 8310 mounts for example.
> Dubai isn't a country. It's a city in the United Arab Emirates.
I learned recently that Dubai is also the name of the emirate. I don’t have a good understanding of the UAE governmental structure, but the Emirates do seem to have their own governments. Maybe it can be thought of as a country in the same way Scotland can be thought of as a country.
The United Arab Emirates is a federal state, like the US or Canada (and notably not like the UK--Scotland is a devolved component of a unitary state, not a member of a federal state). The Emirate of Dubai is thus most closely analogized to a US state or a Canadian province, though I'm not entirely sure off-hand how the power of a UAE Emirate compares to federal subjects in the countries whose politics I'm more familiar with.
Also, Dubai is effectively a city-state, as the vast majority of the population of the Emirate lives in the city itself.
Reliability engineering is a thing. I had a friend whose research was targeted around getting consumer white goods to work for a specified number of months.
They aren’t designed to fail, they are designed to work around some predictable model during the warranty and extended warranty period.
> The only place where this doesn’t happen is in the country of Dubai.
As far as I'm aware, we've got comparable bulbs available in Canada. We've got the Philips 95 CRI ultra definition bulbs and the ultra efficiency bulbs.
The UltraEfficient bulbs seem better-specced than the Dubai bulbs - the standard A19 of the latter is specced for 6W/600 lumen/25k hours at 80 CRI, while the bulbs I can buy at the drug store here are specced for 5W/810 lumen/50k hours at 80 CRI.
Interesting. I was just thinking I have never had to replace a single bulb in my apartment. I have lived here for five years and the bulbs weren’t new when I moved in.
I also have Nanoleafs that I have had for about six years and so far no issues. They run for about 12 hours a day on most days.
I am in BC,CA. I gotta take apart my lights and see what they are.
There's definitely no cartel today, there are wayyy too many manufacturers for that to be a practical reality.
The reason most consumer LED bulbs fail early today is because consumers are low-information buyers who make purchase decisions based overwhelmingly on price and secondarily on aesthetics. The typical buyer has no way to accurately judge the actual design longevity of a bulb on the shelf. Yes, bulbs have lifetime ratings, but even if people bother to read them, those ratings in many places are not well regulated and reflect an ideal scenario that oftentimes is not reflective of real-world use.
The sales success of these race-to-the-bottom bulbs has driven higher quality bulbs off of the shelf at most retailers. You can get well designed long-life LED lighting, but you'd need to step up to commercial/industrial options. There are long life bulbs available, but they generally are designed for uses where they are difficult to replace... because in those use cases a high product price can be justified by lower labor costs to maintain their installation... e.g., bulbs for use high up on a structure, factory lighting, continuous use, etc.
The reason Dubai has better bulbs is simply because they have decided to require it. The reason the US has shit bulbs is because Americans love buying $0.80-1.50 light bulbs. The Dubai bulb is an order of magnitude more expensive. This is a hard sell at Walmart. And the TCO of the $0.87 bulbs on Amazon is still less even accounting for early failures if you are a homeowner who is not factoring in labor costs.
Just an anecdote but I had a huge number of LED MR16 bulbs in my house. Bunch of different brands. They were all crap so we replaced every downlight in my house with an LED disk instead. I’ve stopped thinking about light bulbs altogether.
Maybe they can be designed for thermal management, but very few of them really are. I'm also finding the LED is the most likely failure point, so I prefer to find fixtures with replaceable LED bulbs so I can install the ones I know to be reliable. That way the entire fan isn't junk when the LED dies.
Integrated LED fixtures are usually quite easy to fix when an LED actually fails. Check them all with a multimeter in diode mode and you know which one to replace.
Doesn't the LED going out after 2-3 years make it not only way more expensive (LEDs are easily 10x or more than a regular incandescent light), but also way less energy efficient and much worse for the environment?
These lightbulbs, while using less electricity, use much more energy to produce. And I wonder what with their substrates, if that isn't more difficult to recycle too. I'm not sure, and don't want to judge, but if both every efficiency and recycling are harder, then these bulbs aren't really energy and environmentally efficient.
Not sure if I buy special LEDs, but I have outfit my house with LEDs basically everywhere between 10 and 13 years ago. In that time I had maybe one or two of them die.
Traditional light bulbs have taught us that lights naturally have to be "consumables". That has been far less true for energy saving lamps (of which I have maybe 2 or 3 still left which I planned to replace by LEDs once they die, but they just won't). As far as I can tell, this isn't at all the case for LEDs.
It's much more likely that lamps and ceiling fans made out of plastic break from accidental physical impact or turn ugly due to natural UV discolorization or similar. And probably most will live on until replaced due to changing tastes.
In theory, yes. In practice I suspect a lot of these fixtures are not using integration to achieve better thermal design, they're using it because it makes the product cheaper and lets the manufacturer control the whole assembly.
donatj · · focus · HN ↗
I was taken aback by how few of the fans had replaceable lightbulbs! In the entire store there were maybe three or four options with a replaceable bulb!
Call me crazy, but a nonreplaceable LED is a complete dealbreaker. I go through so many LED bulbs! I don't know if my electricity is like particularly bad or if that's just normal? The first LED bulb I ever bought (Shout out EarthLED) in 2008 for like $30 is still going strong, but every bulb I buy these days lasts like two years tops.
Anyway, we did not buy a fan.
Youden · · focus · HN ↗
Lights with non-replaceable bulbs can actually be far better, because they can be designed for their environment. Recessed downlights with built-in LEDs for example can thermally couple the LEDs directly to the metal housing, so the heat can be dissipated into the surrounding air, instead of into the recess.
bradknowles · · focus · HN ↗
The only place where this doesn’t happen is in the country of Dubai. Because of national law, lightbulbs sold there are required to have very long lifespans. That’s why there is a world-wide grey market business for taking existing LED lightbulbs apart, snipping off a resistor so that they pull about half the amperage and then putting them back together, and suddenly their lifespan is increased by 10-100x. This is called a “doobie”, after the name of the country. Check out “bigclivedotcom” on YouTube if you want to see this in action.
You will notice this if you buy Philips Ultra Definition bulbs in Dubai, versus the same bulbs sold at the same amount of lumen output from the UK or elsewhere in the world. The “doobie” version has twice as many LED filaments inside, compared to the UK version. Same price, way different life span. Philips is one of the better manufacturers of lightbulbs, and nowhere remotely close to the only one doing this.
With regards to LED light fixtures (ones that don’t allow you to screw in your own bulb), most manufacturers do the same thing. They’re designed to fail early. Who wants light fixture styling that is fifty years old, just because the LED lights inside haven’t failed yet? They want to make you buy new fixtures every couple of years, just like they do for bulbs.
Yes, there are exceptions in both cases. But they are the rare exceptions, not the rule. And if you haven’t studied up on the Phoebus Cartel, you can start with the article on Wikipedia.
Youden · · focus · HN ↗
Dubai isn't a country. It's a city in the United Arab Emirates.
The Dubai bulb isn't some trick Big Lightbulb doesn't want you to know about, it's an engineering tradeoff: lower current on more filaments gives you higher efficiency and lower temperature but at higher cost and with substantially lower light quality (CRI).
You'll find that after EU energy labeling, there are products available to European consumers that well exceed the specifications of the "Dubai" bulbs. Look for EU energy class A. They often come with a 5-year warranty and rated lifespan of 50000 hours. The "Dubai" bulbs were rated for 25000 hours. You'll also find though that they're substantially more expensive and usually don't have a CRI above 90.
Regarding planned obsolescence, in many cases I can believe that a product will fail earlier than it would if designed for longevity. Rather than planned obsolescence, I believe this is simply a result of being cheap, a consequence of the race to the bottom. If you're buying cheap Chinese fixtures for $10, or cheap Chinese bulbs for $2, you're not going to get a high-quality, long-lasting product.
If you want products that last a long time, buy them and use them properly. If you want bright lights, make sure they're adequately cooled. Consider buying lower-voltage fixtures and bulbs so that you can have a separate power supply and don't put the full ~230V to ~3V conversion in a tiny space.
DougN7 · · focus · HN ↗
usefulcat · · focus · HN ↗
There was one time I bought some cheap ones from Amazon, and several of them failed within a few months. There was also an LED bulb in the front porch light (so, outside) that lasted around 10 years, despite being outside and used daily. I had several of that same type and that particular one lasted longer than all of the others, where the others were all inside and not installed upside down. So yeah, it varies.
dylan604 · · focus · HN ↗
Regardless of all of that frustration, thank the gods we no longer have to deal with CFL
buttocks · · focus · HN ↗
aaronbrethorst · · focus · HN ↗
wat10000 · · focus · HN ↗
eszed · · focus · HN ↗
lucumo · · focus · HN ↗
And nowadays you can get E27 LED bulbs for 75 cents at IKEA, which is cheaper than incandescents ever were. Not sure how they managed that, because it sounds insane.
Neikius · · focus · HN ↗
dylan604 · · focus · HN ↗
rcxdude · · focus · HN ↗
dylan604 · · focus · HN ↗
Izkata · · focus · HN ↗
dylan604 · · focus · HN ↗
Your comparison of USB-A to USB-C is nonsensical and does not actually acknowledge the issue of why the existing screw in bulb direct replacement have issues
shawn_w · · focus · HN ↗
bombcar · · focus · HN ↗
Screw-in sockets are more durable and long-lasting than any replacement so-far, most of which have been replaced again (remember those weird fluorescent mini-bulb sockets?).
bluGill · · focus · HN ↗
Well, we can certainly argue with 110 or 220 is a better voltage for a house. It is quite clear that 12 volts is too low.
vel0city · · focus · HN ↗
And it's not like we need to just stop producing Edison socket styles tomorrow. But let's make sane standards today.
OneDeuxTriSeiGo · · focus · HN ↗
At 48VDC you could run 16AWG like 100ft and still be fine as long as the lights pull around 60W or less all together (which works out to ~12 lights on a circuit). And that circuit would only add another ~2W or so in power losses when energized.
That circuit is essentially what power over ethernet does today so you could replace romex with PoE Type 3/Type 4 plenum rated ethernet and it'd be like half the cost.
And if you really want to optimise for losses you could put the switches on the ethernet data line and use that for sensing rather than running the PoE circuit out to each light switch (and then de-energise the PoE circuit when the switches report off). Bonus points in that this would allow you to "reprogram" which light switch controls which circuit without needing to do any re-wiring.
cruffle_duffle · · focus · HN ↗
Spooky23 · · focus · HN ↗
sixtiethutopia · · focus · HN ↗
Mounting options that allow larger LED lights allow you to use lights that are more thermally efficient without sacrificing any replaceability. JIS C 8310 mounts for example.
CDRdude · · focus · HN ↗
I learned recently that Dubai is also the name of the emirate. I don’t have a good understanding of the UAE governmental structure, but the Emirates do seem to have their own governments. Maybe it can be thought of as a country in the same way Scotland can be thought of as a country.
jcranmer · · focus · HN ↗
Also, Dubai is effectively a city-state, as the vast majority of the population of the Emirate lives in the city itself.
Spooky23 · · focus · HN ↗
They aren’t designed to fail, they are designed to work around some predictable model during the warranty and extended warranty period.
Neikius · · focus · HN ↗
Marsymars · · focus · HN ↗
As far as I'm aware, we've got comparable bulbs available in Canada. We've got the Philips 95 CRI ultra definition bulbs and the ultra efficiency bulbs.
The UltraEfficient bulbs seem better-specced than the Dubai bulbs - the standard A19 of the latter is specced for 6W/600 lumen/25k hours at 80 CRI, while the bulbs I can buy at the drug store here are specced for 5W/810 lumen/50k hours at 80 CRI.
HnUser12 · · focus · HN ↗
I also have Nanoleafs that I have had for about six years and so far no issues. They run for about 12 hours a day on most days.
I am in BC,CA. I gotta take apart my lights and see what they are.
kube-system · · focus · HN ↗
The reason most consumer LED bulbs fail early today is because consumers are low-information buyers who make purchase decisions based overwhelmingly on price and secondarily on aesthetics. The typical buyer has no way to accurately judge the actual design longevity of a bulb on the shelf. Yes, bulbs have lifetime ratings, but even if people bother to read them, those ratings in many places are not well regulated and reflect an ideal scenario that oftentimes is not reflective of real-world use.
The sales success of these race-to-the-bottom bulbs has driven higher quality bulbs off of the shelf at most retailers. You can get well designed long-life LED lighting, but you'd need to step up to commercial/industrial options. There are long life bulbs available, but they generally are designed for uses where they are difficult to replace... because in those use cases a high product price can be justified by lower labor costs to maintain their installation... e.g., bulbs for use high up on a structure, factory lighting, continuous use, etc.
The reason Dubai has better bulbs is simply because they have decided to require it. The reason the US has shit bulbs is because Americans love buying $0.80-1.50 light bulbs. The Dubai bulb is an order of magnitude more expensive. This is a hard sell at Walmart. And the TCO of the $0.87 bulbs on Amazon is still less even accounting for early failures if you are a homeowner who is not factoring in labor costs.
grvdrm · · focus · HN ↗
toddmorey · · focus · HN ↗
kube-system · · focus · HN ↗
onlyrealcuzzo · · focus · HN ↗
Operative word here is "can".
wafflemaker · · focus · HN ↗
These lightbulbs, while using less electricity, use much more energy to produce. And I wonder what with their substrates, if that isn't more difficult to recycle too. I'm not sure, and don't want to judge, but if both every efficiency and recycling are harder, then these bulbs aren't really energy and environmentally efficient.
stkdump · · focus · HN ↗
Traditional light bulbs have taught us that lights naturally have to be "consumables". That has been far less true for energy saving lamps (of which I have maybe 2 or 3 still left which I planned to replace by LEDs once they die, but they just won't). As far as I can tell, this isn't at all the case for LEDs.
It's much more likely that lamps and ceiling fans made out of plastic break from accidental physical impact or turn ugly due to natural UV discolorization or similar. And probably most will live on until replaced due to changing tastes.
veunes · · focus · HN ↗