Thread

US sanctions force The Netherlands off Microsoft and toward alternative NixOS

388 points · 396 comments · mywacaday

guidoiaquinti · 1790685221 · focus · HN ↗
Several International Criminal Court (ICC) judges have been unable to access their bank accounts or receive routine salary payments and financial transfers due to financial blockages triggered by United States sanctions. In the country where they live
1. mhh__ · 1790688233 · focus · HN ↗
  Frankly I think this is a good bit of hormesis for European countries. It's critical that we have domestic payment infrastructure.
  1. busssard · 1790691265 · focus · HN ↗
    what would be an alternative currently? i know of services like twint but this is a local swiss solution. any more EU wide established solutions??
    foepys · 1790692512 · focus · HN ↗
    Wero [1] is build on the Dutch iDEAL system and is currently on an upwards trajectory with both banks and retail [2].
    1: <a href="https://wero-wallet.eu/" rel="nofollow">https://wero-wallet.eu/
    2: <a href="https://www.werotracker.eu/" rel="nofollow">https://www.werotracker.eu/
    petcat · 1790693232 · focus · HN ↗
    I've never seen Wero before. Is it similar to Zelle in the US?
    Edit: it looks like Wero requires Google/Apple device attestation [1]. So this is basically a non-starter in terms of "sovereignty" from the US government. Anybody on the wrong side of US sanctions still can't use this since they get their iOS/Google Android devices shut off too.
    [1] <a href="https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599098295313-I-m-seeing-this-error-message-Your-device-does-not-meet-our-security-requirements" rel="nofollow">https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599098295...
    toomuchtodo · 1790693273 · focus · HN ↗
    It gives the Zelle UX to the underlying SEPA Instant infrastructure across the EU. The EU is using Wero to migrate off of Visa and Mastercard. Parent's werotracker tracks not only banks supporting it, but merchants as well.
    Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48207004">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48207004 - May 2026 (777 comments)
    Wero – Digital payment wallet, made in Europe - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47038965">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47038965 - February 2026 (132 comments)
    Europe's Banks Launch Wero Payments to Dislodge Visa, Mastercard - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41666833">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41666833 - September 2024 (88 comments)
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wero" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wero
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area
    > Edit: it looks like Wero requires Google or Apple device attestation. So this is basically a non-starter in terms of "sovereignty" from the US government.
    You don't replace the entire stack at once, you replace it piece by piece. Each piece gets you closer to sovereignty. Payment infra, payment rails->tech infra and foundational systems next. If US Big Tech pulls the rug, that Jira ticket goes to the top of the stack. It will take time, but we're headed in the right direction for Europe to decouple from the US. You eat an elephant one bite at a time. Perfect does not exist, nor is there a quick fix, only reasonable efforts to continue to work over time towards success criteria.
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop
    Any revenue and capital that can be retained in the EU versus being sent to the US is capital that can be recycled into further decoupling and domestic EU investment, versus ending up as US shareholder profits and tax revenues.
    (think in systems)
    someonebaggy · 1790696001 · focus · HN ↗
    I've always used SEPA (even before it was instant) to buy event tickets. The flow is like this: you place your ticket order, then it tells you a bank account number, amount and reference code to send. I believe a newer system puts this in a QR code instead. The order remains open until payment is received and then emails you the tickets, or it times out usually after 14 days.
    Seems a little risky for the seller. The advantage of credit cards is that you can charge the card synchronously during the order flow. I haven't used Wero yet but I imagine it's more similar to the QR code process than the credit card process.
    Advantage of a push system is fraud is basically impossible, disadvantage is it takes so many steps. With a pull system you just scan or autocomplete your card and it's done.
    toomuchtodo · 1790696415 · focus · HN ↗
    Teething issues are likely unavoidable, but I assume they will end up like Pix eventually [1] (or close enough). It's simply the body of work between current state and target state. Tangentially, Europe is exploring integrating with Brazil's Pix instant payment system [2].
    [1] <a href="https://whatispix.com/" rel="nofollow">https://whatispix.com/
    [2] ECB to assess feasibility of interlinking with Brazil instant payment system Pix - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49846701">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49846701 - September 2026
    hyperman1 · 1790701131 · focus · HN ↗
    If Wero grandfathers in the existing iDeal flow, no cellphone is required. Just a bank card and a small gadget provided by your bank. Belgian Bancontact already works like that since the '80s. I never use my cellphone for payments.
    toomuchtodo · 1790701159 · focus · HN ↗
    Any links you can recommend that I would be able to cite in the future on this topic?
    busssard · 1790782302 · focus · HN ↗
    never seen this before and the adoption tracker shows my bank doesnt have it or announced a plan for it yet
    i will keep it in mind! thank you
    alexgieg · 1790693556 · focus · HN ↗
    Cryptocurrencies in general are a good alternative. They're strictly unsanctionable and, depending on the currency selected, also untraceable, so secondary sanctions would be extremely difficult to apply with any kind of granularity. National-scale sanctions, evidently, would still be quite feasible.
    Alas, that kind of anonymity runs counter to the very soul of the European bureaucratic ethos. They absolutely want to know in detail where every single cent goes, plus the power to block transactions at will, so they're looking into some magic solution that allows them full purview and full control while perfectly denying the US and its spy apparatus the possibility to also see into it, an impossible combination of requirements.
    And I say all that as a fan of the EU. It's one of their many blind spots they need to overcome if they ever want to become a technological superpower.
    someonebaggy · 1790696017 · focus · HN ↗
    7 transactions per second
    nvme0n1p1 · 1790697844 · focus · HN ↗
    Yes, that was a pretty big dealbreaker... in 2011
    someonebaggy · 1790701705 · focus · HN ↗
    Still is one. I think visa processes more transactions now than in 2011.
    alexgieg · 1790710032 · focus · HN ↗
    Some new cryptocurrencies designed for interbank communication can do 20k transactions per second now, and can scale above that. It's just a matter of choosing the appropriate stack for the task.
    someonebaggy · 1790714616 · focus · HN ↗
    Can they do it within ten seconds and completely decentralised, as well? Which ones?
    alexgieg · 1790757527 · focus · HN ↗
    I think the currently fastest is Hedera (HBAR), at 2 minutes per transaction or so, and that it's also the most decentralized, without that mechanism other crypto currencies have that the more you own, the stronger your power over the network. There's still some power at the nodes level though, in that if they all coordinate they can shutdown the network for whatever reason. I also read it's designed such that those metrics improve as the network grows.
    But I'm not a specialist, I'm just interested in the technology and play with it a little, so take what I wrote with a grain of salt.
    busssard · 1790782169 · focus · HN ↗
    as a big fanboy of cardano back in the day, i have yet to see one that has managed to bridge the UX divide that has enough public trust.
    i know of some mutual credit systems that can work, but also here, it requires the trust of a big enough amount of people to trigger network effects!
    ychnd · 1790712506 · focus · HN ↗
    Well, SEPA? I know, I know, but you can get really far with just that / build on top of that.

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