Thread

US sanctions force The Netherlands off Microsoft and toward alternative NixOS

388 points · 396 comments · mywacaday

silverFork · 1790683767 · focus · HN ↗
It is more like self imposed sanction against US made products. There are now tons of open source operating systems and applications that can replace Microsoft products, which are basically some old programs. The replacements cost vastly less for use and support.
1. pipes · 1790685182 · focus · HN ↗
  Citation needed on the costs vastly less to support and use.
  1. bluGill · 1790685527 · focus · HN ↗
    Very much. There are a lot of hidden costs in computers. What does IT cost you? If everybody already knows the other program how much productivity is lost before they figure out the slight changes with the new (they will learn but experts will need time to become experts).
    edwinjm · 1790686533 · focus · HN ↗
    That’s not a citation. Of course you want to have actual research to substantiate these statements.
    bluGill · 1790688486 · focus · HN ↗
    Sorry, I'm saying the things I want a citation to look at. A lot of citations are too superficial.
    silverFork · 1790688629 · focus · HN ↗
    What is citation; somebody else reporting it?
    Here; they replacing windows.. the packages they have listed are open source aka typically free to use <a href="https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/04/german-state-gov-ditching-windows-for-linux-30k-workers-migrating/" rel="nofollow">https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/04/germa...
    bluGill · 1790690238 · focus · HN ↗
    That is exactly my point: what is the cost to those "free" to use things? There are a lot of costs that have nothing to do with the price to get them.
    silverFork · 1790693520 · focus · HN ↗
    The other costs are the same or maybe less because they will in local currencies. The other costs are virus detection and updates. The updates are usually related to viruses or new interfaces that Microsoft is modifying for its own sake which is typically cloud related. There is competition in cloud delivery you know. Microsoft is not the cheapest solution.
    jackb4040 · 1790690368 · focus · HN ↗
    > If everybody already knows the other program
    Thankfully what you're describing is a switching cost, not a permanently higher operating cost. Once the monopoly is broken and the state is using open source tools, there's every reason to believe it will be cheaper - no expensive proprietary certifications etc.
    It would be unbelievable that the US would rather continue facilitating a genocide than retain Microsoft's global enterprise software monopoly, had they not already destroyed the UN, the ICC, and the global economy for that goal.
    All they had to do was make keep the other costs lower than the switching costs, and they could've continued setting terms forever.
  2. silverFork · 1790687779 · focus · HN ↗
    No monthly fees and most software is available on opensource
    windows -> linux mint OR reactOS OR OpenSUSE OR NIXos ( their choice) and many more
    excel -> many of them as well as google spread sheet for free
    Word -> Gazillion editors on open source; some much much better; and there is free google editor to boot
    PowerPoint-> again Gazillion opensource replacements
    Paint-> is a joke. Open source stuff is 10 times better
    I don't want to advertise these products but you have access to search engines; look it up..
    What is it that you think is so special? The only reason people are using the stuff is momentum carried from the past and PC being sold preloaded with windows.
    In my opinion that is.
    locusofplenty · 1790688935 · focus · HN ↗
    [dead]
    tosti · 1790689505 · focus · HN ↗
    "I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated Development That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you." -- Vance Petree, Virginia Power
    zidad · 1790689619 · focus · HN ↗
    Google is not a very viable alternative when you're trying to evade US sanctions
    silverFork · 1790693800 · focus · HN ↗
    That is true but I mean individuals can use that stuff for free. The micosoft 365 has a zillion copies. Most of the stuff that companies use is applications they developed that they load on azure are probably java or C++ based applications about a decade or two old.
    skeledrew · 1790690283 · focus · HN ↗
    > reactOS
    Not at all viable for daily use. Better you said ZorinOS (Linux distro with a very Windows feel; used it myself for a few months during my transition from Windows over 10 years ago).
    silverFork · 1790701125 · focus · HN ↗
    Yup, whatever came to my mind I posted but you are right , Linux distro is a great choice and more recent ones Fedora, Ubuntu, Bazzite and Arch.. mint may have issues with some graphic cards apparently.. I couldn't update my post to add these.. sorry
    webarchitect · 1790690389 · focus · HN ↗
    Not to mention that with WINE you can install Microsoft Office - I could be wrong, but I think OS and Infra are the focus, Microsoft Office is orienting and tolerable. Its bloated but people know it. Besides office, everything important really is a web app now.
    silverFork · 1790693215 · focus · HN ↗
    Microsoft is now charging monthly fees.. It is not about tolerance, it is like countries are paying rent to USA for something that their own people can provide at far lesser cost and there would be less bullying too and more independence to top it off. Once there is a momentum worldwide to transition away from Microsoft or American centric suppliers, the there would be more diversity too and more interoperating tools.
  3. anonzzzies · 1790688574 · focus · HN ↗
    I do not know in this case, but I led migration and cost benefits analysis beforehand of very large Windows 3.11 to 95 to 2000; at the time there was nothing else that was considered useful and there still pain and massive cost. Later on we had to consider Linux as alternative; it just wasn’t close ; the stability (yep), easy of use etc was just not feasible. Now that Linux is good and easy to configure to basically be exactly like Windows and now that most custom applications of large corporates are web based and specific ones can be ran via Citrix for a few people who need it, I am guessing it finally is cheaper now. And 90% of users won’t even notice the difference; I remember when I was planning my first 3.11 to 95 migration that people were by far most stressed about users unable to open applications as they remember not the name or the icon but 2nd row, 3rd down is Word. Start, 5 up, 1 right, 3 down is internet. Etc. So as long as that’s the same, you are fine. It’s how most our clients still work so we take care never to move functionalities; only add, no delete.
    skeledrew · 1790690897 · focus · HN ↗
    > 2nd row, 3rd down is Word. Start, 5 up, 1 right, 3 down is internet.
    That's crazy. There's no way that's the case today though as learning about basic computers+office (which implicitly includes how to run apps) is pretty standard in schools, and is a requirement for relevant positions. And the alternatives have a mostly similar UI, so the only differences people really need to deal with is ribbon vs traditional toolbar and a few other minor items, which can be covered in a couple of meetings for the more dense employees.
    Telaneo · 1790691922 · focus · HN ↗
    You'd be surprised. There are still quite a few 40-60 year olds working who never actually learned computers to begin with, and are still working by rote. On the other end of the scale are the 20~ year olds who never learned learned computers so much as they learned a tablet and a phone, and that trend doesn't seem to be turning.[1]
    I had computer lessons in school, but I don't think those are universal any more, and that part of the curriculum has just been swallowed up by other lessons always using a tablet or Chromebook, meaning the kids never learn the foundation (to the extent there ever was one. It's not like I learned about common UI elements or anything back then. I figured those out by being interested in computers), but just learn what they have to by osmosis. This obviously varies depending on country and curriculum.
    [1] <a href="https://futurism.com/the-byte/gen-z-kids-file-systems" rel="nofollow">https://futurism.com/the-byte/gen-z-kids-file-systems
    skeledrew · 1790728190 · focus · HN ↗
    There are still quite a few 40-60 year olds working who never actually learned computers to begin with [...]
    Yeah but whatever the situation, if they're already working with an office suite in a work situation then retraining as needed should be an expectation and fairly straight forward.
    > I don't think those are universal any more
    In the Caribbean where I am, learning basic computer use and office is a requirement in high school, along with English and Math. It'd be strange and irresponsible if there are - reasonably functional - countries that don't ensure students get certain skills to be able to function in a modern workplace.
    Telaneo · 1790730230 · focus · HN ↗
    > It'd be strange and irresponsible if there are - reasonably functional - countries that don't ensure students get certain skills to be able to function in a modern workplace.
    A non-zero percent of students come out of school not being able to read or write. A double-digit percentage of Americans are seemingly only being able to read at a level just barely above the absolute bare minimum level that could actually count as being able to read.[1][2] I know Americans are special, but I'd be surprised if the rest of the world is drastically different in this case (it's probably better, but my lived experience tells me many, many people are really bad at reading, and actually getting them to engage or try to extract information beyond the exact words that are on the page, is a really heavy task for them they have real trouble with). Going by the averages of the 2024 results of the PIAAC survey,[3] many places are better, but I doubt they've managed to eliminate that large bottom part which is close to illiterate.
    If we already have trouble teaching kids to read, then there should be no surprise we're having even more trouble teaching them to use computers.
    [1] <a href="https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/2023/national_results.asp" rel="nofollow">https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/2023/national_results.asp
    [2] <a href="https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/measure.asp?section=1&sub_section=3" rel="nofollow">https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/measure.asp?section=1&sub_...
    [3] <a href="https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/do-adults-have-the-skills-they-need-to-thrive-in-a-changing-world_b263dc5d-en.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/do-adults-have-the-skil...
    skeledrew · 1790734231 · focus · HN ↗
    Well, to keep this discussion in scope, the illiterate have limited job options, particularly near zero for jobs that require computer literacy. That automatically handles the issue in contention for this context: if someone can't get a job involving computers then retraining isn't even relevant in their case.
    Telaneo · 1790735870 · focus · HN ↗
    Many, many people who are on that level of literacy are in fact working with computers. Ask anyone in L1 tech support what kinds of tickets they get. Many involve people not reading the text directly in front of them.
    skeledrew · 1790740613 · focus · HN ↗
    That sounds highly problematic. Probably why there are so many tech support horror stories. Still, if they can fake it enough to keep that job, then they can fake it enough to adapt to tooling changes. Or wash out and get replaced by another who hopefully understands the tool that their job depends on them using to properly do said job. But again also if the pay is low enough the employer probably doesn't care much about performance anyway.
    silverFork · 1790695345 · focus · HN ↗
    Obviously migration costs have given Microsoft the ability to collect rent on ancient software. But the younger population has stopped using a lot of these applications as well. There was sufficient motive to stop paying rent for old software and now there are more reasons that are piling up; one is self sufficiency then there is revolution in coding software as well as changing of what is a desirable office. Add Ai into this soup and what an office needs these days is not the same as decades ago.
    jacquesm · 1790696245 · focus · HN ↗
    It always was cheaper. The thing that made it more expensive was that usually through one backdoor or another you were still paying microsoft.
  4. Zigurd · 1790695838 · focus · HN ↗
    There's a strong case to be made that a lot of enterprise licensing is a roach motel model. Easy to get into and seemingly convenient, especially the case for support. Avoiding that trap will reap benefits.
  5. mcv · 1790696921 · focus · HN ↗
    Didn't Schleswig-Holstein switch and make back the migration costs within a year?
2. MadrasThorn · 1790685792 · focus · HN ↗
  Yeah. Trump has been ripping out US infrastructure globally. Trumps administration and vance(GOP finance chair) elon(doge) thiel(owns vance) need to be removed ASAP.
3. juujian · 1790689833 · focus · HN ↗
  Of course you would want to procure products that work for all of your employees. The idea that you could just cut off certain elements of a foreign government was really shortsighted.
4. someonebaggy · 1790696631 · focus · HN ↗
  There are indeed tons. But I think it's debatable whether they can replace Microsoft. But when forced to replace Microsoft, you'll try anyway.

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