I see this as a manifestation of the loss of teaching effective communication skills. This takes a moment to explain, so please slow down and consider this: before the cultural revolutions of the 1960's, general education included more emphasis on communications conflicts and resolutions of them. For example, every school had a debate team, and the various forms and rules of debate were common knowledge. Yes, this is true. Debate and watching people skilled at argumentative discussion used to be a popular form of entertainment. Then, during the cultural revolution of the 1960s, the best or the "stars of debate" all sided with the youth culture and not the establishment. That then triggered the removal of debate from educations, from entertainment, and from public life. Now, decades later we have the situation that groups of adults cannot form without conflicts and arguments that drive the community creation aspects away. We have created a culture that cannot communicate, because we have stopped teaching basic oral conflict negotiation of any form.
I think people also forget (or don’t even know) that before mobile phones you’d often walk over to someone’s house just to knock on the door to find out if they were in or see what they were doing.
So allied to the lack of dinner parties, there’s fewer reasons to even go to someone’s house any more, you can just text them… or not even bother and check their socials to see what impression of a life they’re presenting today.
> I think people also forget (or don’t even know) that before mobile phones you’d often walk over to someone’s house just to knock on the door to find out if they were in or see what they were doing.
If you’re the person who is out, then you don’t have a landline to call. Or then have to make the decision while out to go and find a payphone and have change and put in money to make a call to see if the person is in, while the clock is frantically ticking on the call.
Also if you weren’t the person who paid the phone bill, it was often presented to you as a more parsimonious solution to use your feet rather than the telephone.
Another example is if you made a plan to meet somewhere at a specific time and the person didn’t turn up. You would have no clue about where they were or what happened even if you found a payphone and called their house and it rang out. You were still s.o.l. for the rest of the day so dealt with it.
> If you’re the person who is out, then you don’t have a landline to call. Or then have to make the decision while out to go and find a payphone and have correct change and put in money to make a call to see if the person is in, while the clock is frantically ticking on the call.
You seem to be completely changing the situation. In this comment, you're talking about wanting to visit someone at home, whereas in your original comment, you're talking about not wanting to visit someone at home: "there’s fewer reasons to even go to someone’s house any more, you can just text them… or not even bother and check their socials to see what impression of a life they’re presenting today."
In other words, the mobile phone is a replacement for a home visit rather than a means for a home visit.
It's true that mobile phones can make it easier than landlines to find out if someone is home, but if that's how people were using mobile phones, then you would expect more home visits.
> Also if you weren’t the person who paid the phone bill, it was often presented to you as a more parsimonious solution to use your feet rather than the telephone.
I don't understand this point. Long-distance calls were frequently billed per call, but of course walking is not a replacement for those. Local calls were typically unlimited for a fixed monthly rate.
You seem to be completely autistic and determined to raise disputes where none exist.
Maybe in your suburban sprawl where multiple telephones and multiple cars per household are essential necessities because it’s a 90 minute walk to a shop or a friend’s then one would have unlimited local calls but in huge parts of the rest of the world unlimited calling simply wasn’t a thing.
I can’t imagine you get invited to many dinner parties.
> I can’t imagine you get invited to many dinner parties.
Please read and respect the HN guidelines: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html">https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
> You’ve broken and disrespected the HN guidelines towards several people throughout this thread
How so? At worst, I said "Um".
Regardless of what you believe I've done, do you not acknowledge that you ought to follow the guidelines, and that personal insults are unacceptable, blatantly cross the line? The guidelines don't say that you get to violate them if someone else does. It may be hypocritical of me—though I disagree with that here—but in any case it's not nonsensical.
> Today it is more widespread, but it used to be highly unusual.
I can't even speak about today, because I haven't had a landline in years. But at least in the US, unlimited local calls were definitely not unusual in the pre-smartphone era.
So, in other words you're writing off the vast majority of the world and forgetting that we're not by any means all in the US here and by no means are all of us talking only about the US.
> I can't even speak about today, because I haven't had a landline in years. But at least in the US, unlimited local calls were definitely not unusual in the pre-smartphone era.
The context I gave was clear: It followed right after pointing out the US is unusual in this respect - the statement referred to that.
It's not clear to me whether you are intentionally obtuse or if you're genuinely struggling to pick up the context here, but either way you are being incredibly obtuse throughout this conversation. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but consider that I'm not the only one here who have picked up on this.
> by no means are all of us talking only about the US.
> It's not clear to me whether you are intentionally obtuse or if you're genuinely struggling to pick up the context here
The submitted HN article is about the US:
"We’re witnessing the death of hosting in America."
The charts in the submitted article are also about Americans exclusively.
So yes, we are in fact talking only about the US, and I am not obtuse or missing the context. I've been aware of the context the entire time.
What did you think we were talking about?
I'm not "writing off the vast majority of the world" or "forgetting" anything. The submitted article just happens to be about the US, not the rest of the world, and the patterns of socializing in other countries may be very different.
> So yes, we are in fact talking only about the US
I am not, and others in this thread have also not limited themselves to just the US, so no, we are not.
You're clearly being obtuse when you're failing to notice that and failing to pick that up from the fact that multiple people are pointing this out to you.
Someone suggested elsewhere in the thread that you might be autistic. As someone with autistic traits myself and a family member with autism, I tend to agree - this is the kind of literal treatment and rigidity that gets covered in an autism assessment. There's no judgement in that, but you might benefit from reflecting on it as it might help you relate better to people around you.
> You're clearly being obtuse when you're failing to notice that and failing to pick that up from the fact that multiple people are pointing this out to you.
I haven't failed to notice. The problem is that people are going off on tangents and talking about other countries in replies to me when I was always intending to talk about the submitted HN article and the US. They mention other countries in replies to me as if it contradicts points that I was making, but it doesn't, because I was never talking about a non-US context.
There was not a preeexisting discussion of other countries. You and others started a discussion of other countries in replies to my preexisting comments about the US, and I was never intending to talk about that, nor do I have much insight into non-US socializing, which is why I've been trying to clarify that my comments are about the US only.
> Someone suggested elsewhere in the thread that you might be autistic.
I'm not and don't appreciate the remote diagnosis from someone who has never met me and knows almost nothing about me.
Stop making personal comments about me. If you want to argue about socializing in the US or in other countries, fine, although I'm already tired of the argument. In any case, though, psychoanalyzing other commenters is unwelcome in HN comments and indeed discouraged by the guidelines. It's out of place and offensive.
I went thru the thread and I agree with you. Though I am from very different background your examples feel very familiar to me. Meeting some one after phone call/ text create different level of expectation where both parties are more intentional in meeting. Where as going unannounced create far less expectations on either side. Not meet at all as someone is not home, meet for short time as they are heading out soon, have long afternoon gossiping, chatting as it turns out they also had nothing to do in particular that afternoon.
bsenftner · · focus · HN ↗
gizajob · · focus · HN ↗
So allied to the lack of dinner parties, there’s fewer reasons to even go to someone’s house any more, you can just text them… or not even bother and check their socials to see what impression of a life they’re presenting today.
lapcat · · focus · HN ↗
Um, we had phones before mobile phones.
gizajob · · focus · HN ↗
lapcat · · focus · HN ↗
Where I lived, suburban United States, landlines were ubiquitous, and we used them all the time.
gizajob · · focus · HN ↗
If you’re the person who is out, then you don’t have a landline to call. Or then have to make the decision while out to go and find a payphone and have change and put in money to make a call to see if the person is in, while the clock is frantically ticking on the call.
Also if you weren’t the person who paid the phone bill, it was often presented to you as a more parsimonious solution to use your feet rather than the telephone.
Another example is if you made a plan to meet somewhere at a specific time and the person didn’t turn up. You would have no clue about where they were or what happened even if you found a payphone and called their house and it rang out. You were still s.o.l. for the rest of the day so dealt with it.
lapcat · · focus · HN ↗
You seem to be completely changing the situation. In this comment, you're talking about wanting to visit someone at home, whereas in your original comment, you're talking about not wanting to visit someone at home: "there’s fewer reasons to even go to someone’s house any more, you can just text them… or not even bother and check their socials to see what impression of a life they’re presenting today."
In other words, the mobile phone is a replacement for a home visit rather than a means for a home visit.
It's true that mobile phones can make it easier than landlines to find out if someone is home, but if that's how people were using mobile phones, then you would expect more home visits.
> Also if you weren’t the person who paid the phone bill, it was often presented to you as a more parsimonious solution to use your feet rather than the telephone.
I don't understand this point. Long-distance calls were frequently billed per call, but of course walking is not a replacement for those. Local calls were typically unlimited for a fixed monthly rate.
gizajob · · focus · HN ↗
Maybe in your suburban sprawl where multiple telephones and multiple cars per household are essential necessities because it’s a 90 minute walk to a shop or a friend’s then one would have unlimited local calls but in huge parts of the rest of the world unlimited calling simply wasn’t a thing.
I can’t imagine you get invited to many dinner parties.
lapcat · · focus · HN ↗
> I can’t imagine you get invited to many dinner parties.
Please read and respect the HN guidelines: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html">https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
gizajob · · focus · HN ↗
lapcat · · focus · HN ↗
How so? At worst, I said "Um".
Regardless of what you believe I've done, do you not acknowledge that you ought to follow the guidelines, and that personal insults are unacceptable, blatantly cross the line? The guidelines don't say that you get to violate them if someone else does. It may be hypocritical of me—though I disagree with that here—but in any case it's not nonsensical.
gravatron · · focus · HN ↗
vidarh · · focus · HN ↗
Mostly in the US. Today it is more widespread, but it used to be highly unusual.
lapcat · · focus · HN ↗
Yes, I'm referring to the US.
> Today it is more widespread, but it used to be highly unusual.
I can't even speak about today, because I haven't had a landline in years. But at least in the US, unlimited local calls were definitely not unusual in the pre-smartphone era.
vidarh · · focus · HN ↗
So, in other words you're writing off the vast majority of the world and forgetting that we're not by any means all in the US here and by no means are all of us talking only about the US.
> I can't even speak about today, because I haven't had a landline in years. But at least in the US, unlimited local calls were definitely not unusual in the pre-smartphone era.
The context I gave was clear: It followed right after pointing out the US is unusual in this respect - the statement referred to that.
It's not clear to me whether you are intentionally obtuse or if you're genuinely struggling to pick up the context here, but either way you are being incredibly obtuse throughout this conversation. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but consider that I'm not the only one here who have picked up on this.
lapcat · · focus · HN ↗
> It's not clear to me whether you are intentionally obtuse or if you're genuinely struggling to pick up the context here
The submitted HN article is about the US:
"We’re witnessing the death of hosting in America."
The charts in the submitted article are also about Americans exclusively.
So yes, we are in fact talking only about the US, and I am not obtuse or missing the context. I've been aware of the context the entire time.
What did you think we were talking about?
I'm not "writing off the vast majority of the world" or "forgetting" anything. The submitted article just happens to be about the US, not the rest of the world, and the patterns of socializing in other countries may be very different.
vidarh · · focus · HN ↗
And a lot of the conversation is not.
> So yes, we are in fact talking only about the US
I am not, and others in this thread have also not limited themselves to just the US, so no, we are not.
You're clearly being obtuse when you're failing to notice that and failing to pick that up from the fact that multiple people are pointing this out to you.
Someone suggested elsewhere in the thread that you might be autistic. As someone with autistic traits myself and a family member with autism, I tend to agree - this is the kind of literal treatment and rigidity that gets covered in an autism assessment. There's no judgement in that, but you might benefit from reflecting on it as it might help you relate better to people around you.
lapcat · · focus · HN ↗
I haven't failed to notice. The problem is that people are going off on tangents and talking about other countries in replies to me when I was always intending to talk about the submitted HN article and the US. They mention other countries in replies to me as if it contradicts points that I was making, but it doesn't, because I was never talking about a non-US context.
There was not a preeexisting discussion of other countries. You and others started a discussion of other countries in replies to my preexisting comments about the US, and I was never intending to talk about that, nor do I have much insight into non-US socializing, which is why I've been trying to clarify that my comments are about the US only.
> Someone suggested elsewhere in the thread that you might be autistic.
I'm not and don't appreciate the remote diagnosis from someone who has never met me and knows almost nothing about me.
Stop making personal comments about me. If you want to argue about socializing in the US or in other countries, fine, although I'm already tired of the argument. In any case, though, psychoanalyzing other commenters is unwelcome in HN comments and indeed discouraged by the guidelines. It's out of place and offensive.
geodel · · focus · HN ↗