Eric Cline makes a good case that the Bronze Age empires were organized around a “palace economy”, where only certain people (royals & their pals) were even allowed to trade. In some places the sovereign literally owned all the land and people on it.
One can imagine that a series of bad seasons, natural disasters, invasions & other stressors would open a window for revolt.
Yes tin was a factor, yes the “Sea Peoples” were a factor. But you don’t get the wholesale overthrow of so many empires without the common people being at least somewhat welcoming of the invaders (when not happily assisting them!) in throwing off centuries of elite oppression.
I wonder if the sea people were just displaced-farmers-turned-raiders that created some open loop feedback that in turn spawned more sea people in self defence or self survival.
The mythological idea of them just appearing out of nowhere is nice too. Makes it feel aligned with something like the pyramids having no explanation
This would (at least in part) mirror the dynamic during another major period of collapse and upheaval - the migration period. Displaced people trying to survive by raiding or squatting on new territory, thus displacing more people and collapsing complex networks of trade which were sustaining large local populations, thus displacing more people etc etc.
Similarly to the end of the bronze age, it was also a period in which shifts in climate stressed social structures. A runaway dynamic of lots of desperate people on the move is not great for stability, and if everyone is already experiencing some scarcity, then that's all the more vulnerable.
Yes, I think so. I remember Eric Cline mentioning this hypothesis in a lecture or a podcast about a decade ago.
Sea people as refugees displaced by drought, famine, war or just a general societal collapse.
In any case, the temporal coincidence of the bronze age collapse and the wide-spread adoption of iron working, which was inferior to bronze at first but more readily accessible, is fascinating*. I am not sure if we have a full picture of the role of that change yet. (Was it just a consequence of the collapse of trade and tin imports, or did it cause the destruction of the bronze age empires in the first place, or just prevent their return, or was it more complicated?)
(*) I do not mean the superficial tautology of "iron age" following the "bronze age" but the fact that the bronze age, in this region, ended in a societal collapse.
The Fall of Civilizations Podcast (nice one) had an episode on this topic.
According to it, the sea peoples could instead be vast numbers of western europeans fleeing the outcome of a massive volcanic eruption in Iceland, which would have triggered crop failures and mass starvation in western and northern europe.
A significant portion of the survivors would have fled en masse to the richer eastern Mediterranean empires, thereby causing their downfall.
They probably never existed in the first place. Most of the evidence for the “Sea People” story is extremely tenuous. Those maps you’ve seen with lots of cities burnt down? Bogus. Often it is really just one burnt down building in a village or town that looks like it might date to approximately the right century. The maps also cherry–pick the data by showing all the towns that they count as burned down wile ignoring the far larger population that were not, and by obscuring the fact that these fires were spread out over such a long period of time.
I don't know where you're getting your facts, but according to Fall of Civilizations, it's not just one burnt down building, we're talking of a layer of ash, charred wood and burned material throughout the Eastern Mediterranean.
"The archeological evidence is quite clear: at some point between the year 1200 and the year 1100 BC, right at the end of the period we call the Bronze Age, a wave of destruction washed across the entire region. It wiped whole civilizations off the map and left nothing in its wake."
Yes, that’s the exaggerated tale that everyone knows.
In “Destruction and Its Impact on Ancient Societies at the End of the Bronze Age” <<a href="https://www.lockwoodpress.com/product-page/the-fall-of-the-bronze-age-destruction-and-its-impact-on-ancient-societies" rel="nofollow">https://www.lockwoodpress.com/product-page/the-fall-of-the-b...> Jesse Millek examines 153 sites claimed to have been destroyed and found that 61% never happened, happened during a different time period, or had a different cause.
Even without buying the whole book you can download the appendix where he summarizes the results. A few notable entries:
Shiqmona: The possibly destroyed public building dates to the fourteenth century BCE. No end of the Late Branze Age destruction was uncovered.
Tell Irbid: C14 dates derived from short-lived samples places the destruction event between 1395–1260 BCE.
Krisa: There is only a statement that the site was destroyed with no published evidence of destruction in any structure.
Iria: Some burnt material in a pit was assumed to be a destruction. There was no damage visible to the buildings.
Athens: The Houses on the North slope were not houses at all. It was refuse that was dumped on the stairs.
Ayios Stephanos: Burning was uncovered in one room from Trench Beta 11. No other damage was recorded.
Amman Airport Structure: Evidence of burning in Room VII can be attributed to the hearth in that room.
Pefkakia: Adrimi-Sismani repeatedly cited a destruction, even though the excavators clearly stated the site was abandoned.
Tell el-‘Ajjul: Bell simply placed it on a map as destroyed with no citations. There was no settlement ca. 1200 BCE.
Obviously nobody knows. Whoever wrote those inscriptions apparently didn’t either. Even taking them at face value, however, the evidence that these “Sea People” systematically attacked all of civilization is extremely tenuous. There probably never was a power capable of kicking over all of the anthills and destroying civilization without leaving any other archeological evidence of their existence.
I've never heard that the Sea People were a cohesive force, attacking all of Bronze civilization in anything like a coordinated attack.
Waves of invaders can take many generations to wear down the native forces. They don't need to be allied in any formal sense, either. See for example: Saxons turning Britain Anglo-Saxon.
I am saying that even if these battles did take place, there is no evidence that “the Sea Peoples” fought any other battles anywhere else at all. The story of a wave of violence sweeping around the entire Mediterranean and ending all of the civilizations there is largely fabricated.
Furthermore, just because these inscriptions didn’t give the raiders a specific name doesn’t mean that they were from an unknown civilization.
cobbzilla · · focus · HN ↗
One can imagine that a series of bad seasons, natural disasters, invasions & other stressors would open a window for revolt.
Yes tin was a factor, yes the “Sea Peoples” were a factor. But you don’t get the wholesale overthrow of so many empires without the common people being at least somewhat welcoming of the invaders (when not happily assisting them!) in throwing off centuries of elite oppression.
glouwbug · · focus · HN ↗
The mythological idea of them just appearing out of nowhere is nice too. Makes it feel aligned with something like the pyramids having no explanation
cobbzilla · · focus · HN ↗
kombookcha · · focus · HN ↗
Similarly to the end of the bronze age, it was also a period in which shifts in climate stressed social structures. A runaway dynamic of lots of desperate people on the move is not great for stability, and if everyone is already experiencing some scarcity, then that's all the more vulnerable.
AnimalMuppet · · focus · HN ↗
masklinn · · focus · HN ↗
Them essentially being refugees / displaced and looking for a new place, not them being spawned on the map like a cheap rts scenario.
lh712 · · focus · HN ↗
Sea people as refugees displaced by drought, famine, war or just a general societal collapse.
In any case, the temporal coincidence of the bronze age collapse and the wide-spread adoption of iron working, which was inferior to bronze at first but more readily accessible, is fascinating*. I am not sure if we have a full picture of the role of that change yet. (Was it just a consequence of the collapse of trade and tin imports, or did it cause the destruction of the bronze age empires in the first place, or just prevent their return, or was it more complicated?)
(*) I do not mean the superficial tautology of "iron age" following the "bronze age" but the fact that the bronze age, in this region, ended in a societal collapse.
Mainan_Tagonist · · focus · HN ↗
According to it, the sea peoples could instead be vast numbers of western europeans fleeing the outcome of a massive volcanic eruption in Iceland, which would have triggered crop failures and mass starvation in western and northern europe.
A significant portion of the survivors would have fled en masse to the richer eastern Mediterranean empires, thereby causing their downfall.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B965f8AcNbw" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B965f8AcNbw
pluc · · focus · HN ↗
db48x · · focus · HN ↗
pluc · · focus · HN ↗
"The archeological evidence is quite clear: at some point between the year 1200 and the year 1100 BC, right at the end of the period we call the Bronze Age, a wave of destruction washed across the entire region. It wiped whole civilizations off the map and left nothing in its wake."
db48x · · focus · HN ↗
In “Destruction and Its Impact on Ancient Societies at the End of the Bronze Age” <<a href="https://www.lockwoodpress.com/product-page/the-fall-of-the-bronze-age-destruction-and-its-impact-on-ancient-societies" rel="nofollow">https://www.lockwoodpress.com/product-page/the-fall-of-the-b...> Jesse Millek examines 153 sites claimed to have been destroyed and found that 61% never happened, happened during a different time period, or had a different cause.
Even without buying the whole book you can download the appendix where he summarizes the results. A few notable entries:
Shiqmona: The possibly destroyed public building dates to the fourteenth century BCE. No end of the Late Branze Age destruction was uncovered.
Tell Irbid: C14 dates derived from short-lived samples places the destruction event between 1395–1260 BCE.
Krisa: There is only a statement that the site was destroyed with no published evidence of destruction in any structure.
Iria: Some burnt material in a pit was assumed to be a destruction. There was no damage visible to the buildings.
Athens: The Houses on the North slope were not houses at all. It was refuse that was dumped on the stairs.
Ayios Stephanos: Burning was uncovered in one room from Trench Beta 11. No other damage was recorded.
Amman Airport Structure: Evidence of burning in Room VII can be attributed to the hearth in that room.
Pefkakia: Adrimi-Sismani repeatedly cited a destruction, even though the excavators clearly stated the site was abandoned.
Tell el-‘Ajjul: Bell simply placed it on a map as destroyed with no citations. There was no settlement ca. 1200 BCE.
smcg · · focus · HN ↗
db48x · · focus · HN ↗
IAmBroom · · focus · HN ↗
Waves of invaders can take many generations to wear down the native forces. They don't need to be allied in any formal sense, either. See for example: Saxons turning Britain Anglo-Saxon.
db48x · · focus · HN ↗
<a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49923712">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49923712
smcg · · focus · HN ↗
db48x · · focus · HN ↗
Furthermore, just because these inscriptions didn’t give the raiders a specific name doesn’t mean that they were from an unknown civilization.
<a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49923712">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49923712