‹ BackHN Continuity

Thread

When oil prices spike, where does the money go?

171 points · 195 comments · thelastgallon

  1. jsrozner · · focus · HN ↗
    It's simpler: people who were long oil make money (on paper) and those who were short oil lose money (on paper).

    You were long oil if you are an oil producer, or, e.g., if you owned oil futures. You were short oil if you are an oil consumer, or, e.g., if you had sold oil futures. If you are both (e.g., airlines might hedge future oil consumption by buying futures, and producers might hedge future production by selling away their future production), then you need to net it out across the futures curve.

    Price responses to supply shocks in theory serve to allocate resources appropriately (e.g., if your consumption did not matter that much, you might curtail it); if another person's consumption is more productive (i.e. profitable), then they're likely to eat the input cost and still buy it. In the long run, you might hope that high prices lead to more investment in producing the scarce good, or in more hedging activity to prevent future harms. The net effect of (long) hedging activity is generally to slightly increase the future price because folks buy futures / futures options, and market makers, in addition to selling the option, buy the underlying to remain market neutral. This potentially increases future supply because it can, in theory, push up the futures price, or estimates of future price, which can make new resource extraction economical.

    Unfortunately, today, given the degree of inequality, it is mostly poor people whose consumption is curtailed when there are supply shocks. This is consistent with the above interpretation: the implication of wealth inequality is that the poor people matter less and are less productive to the capitalist machine. As a real example of this, the oil price would likely be higher even, if the oil consumption of Southeast Asian countries had not decreased because they could not afford the higher prices. This is the great thing about inflation in a highly unequal society: it is partially tempered because demand goes away as prices rise.

    1. WalterBright · · focus · HN ↗
      > This is the great thing about inflation in a highly unequal society: it is partially tempered because demand goes away as prices rise.

      Inflation is the result of devaluing the currency by creating money (i.e. deficit spending).

      Oil prices do not cause inflation. Increases in the price of X cause the demand for X to drop, as people shift their spending elsewhere.

      1. davidgay · · focus · HN ↗
        Or, in another world, the official US CPI definition (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bls.gov&#x2F;cpi&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bls.gov&#x2F;cpi&#x2F;) is 16.3% based on energy prices.

        I strongly suspect this definition strongly correlates with what most people call inflation (my fuel bill went up! and strangely, not heading to work wasn&#x27;t really an option).

        1. WalterBright · · focus · HN ↗
          Inflation is characterized by a general price increase, not a price increase in one commodity.
          1. blitzar · · focus · HN ↗
            If everything has an oil component to its price i.e. energy to produce it or transportation to move it, a (large) price increase in one commodity would produce a general price increase.
            1. hdgvhicv · · focus · HN ↗
              But not that 16% level. If the cost of a good is 10% oil then it will increase 1.6% from the oil price.

              People seem to have very odd views on inflation. “Eggs have doubled in price therefore real inflation is 100%”

              The basket of goods and different figures are all there, build your own basket if you want and come out with your own inflation level. Don’t just gut feeling it.

              Now there are legitimate issues — if the cost of 1kg of pasta hasn’t changed, but it is no longer available int he shops near you, then that’s a problem.

Open on Hacker News to reply ↗

Unofficial Hacker News client; not affiliated with Y Combinator.