Thread

1. purpleflame1257 · 1790613109 · focus · HN ↗

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   1. ardit33 · 1790613151 · focus · HN ↗

      nah... it is explicit genocide, and the deliberate destruction of every civilian possible. Everyone knows what's going on.

      1. the_origami_fox · 1790619317 · focus · HN ↗

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         1. mittensc · 1790621836 · focus · HN ↗

            Imagine this was Jerusalem and someone made a similar comment.

            What would you respond?

            1. Sabinus · 1790630067 · focus · HN ↗

               If Jerusalem was lined with the largest tunnel system on earth, laced with booby traps and radical fighters that had just committed a deliberate civilian massacre and retreated into the city for protection among human shields, that they have prepared to defend for a decade?

               1. newspaper1 · 1790631021 · focus · HN ↗

                  You just described all cities in Israel, only they've been hyper-militarized since Nakba, the ethnic cleansing on Palestine in 1948. Israel has mandatory conscription and most of its inhabitants serve or have served in the IDF.

                  1. Sabinus · 1790638761 · focus · HN ↗

                     I was not aware that every city in Israel has an extensive military tunnel network. Is that the case?

                     If Hamas were to take one of those tunnel cities and Israel were doing guerrilla warfare from them I wouldn't blame Hamas for bulldozing.

                     Israel does have mandatory conscription. They also have a firm and visible distinction between when someone is serving in the military and when they are civilian. While in the military they're all fair targets, and if they're not serving, and at a music festival, they're not.

                     1. newspaper1 · 1790639120 · focus · HN ↗

                        Israeli cities have far more threatening military infrastructure than tunnels. They literally have nuclear weapons.

                        > They also have a firm and visible distinction between when someone is serving in the military and when they are civilian.

                        When you murder someone and squat on their land, you're not a "civilian". When someone murders your family and steals your land, you don't have to dress up in any particular outfit to defend yourself.

                        1. Sabinus · 1790641788 · focus · HN ↗

                           >Israeli cities have far more threatening military infrastructure than tunnels. They literally have nuclear weapons.

                           And Hamas is permitted, as per the rules of war, to target that military infrastructure. If Israel has co-located it with civilian buildings, and attacks miss their targets, then too-bad for Israel.

                           >When you murder someone and squat on their land, you're not a "civilian".

                           This is very arguable for the West Bank settlers, but the Israeli civilians that were targeted by October 7 are not settlers and are in very solid Israeli land from a conflict 80 years prior. Arguing that all civilians in Israel proper are valid targets makes you no better than Smotrich and Ben-gvir, and you are essentially advocating for the genocide of Israelis.

                           Which is your right to do, I guess, but that's certainly not going to convince the (nuclear armed, remember) Israelis to moderate and compromise, or actually bring about justice for Palestinians.

                           > When someone murders your family and steals your land, you don't have to dress up in any particular outfit to defend yourself.

                           Military uniforms are for the protection of civilians. If you forgo them, then your civilians will receive more harm. Israel is responsible for their actions and many war crimes, but Hamas is responsible for theirs.

                           1. laimewhisps · 1790642117 · focus · HN ↗

                              Zionists are not civilians, they're literally living on stolen land. It doesn't matter that they've been stealing it for 80 years, it's not their land and the relatives of the people they murdered have every right to defend themselves and get their land back, by any means necessary.

                              1. Sabinus · 1790642738 · focus · HN ↗

                                 If that's the way you want the conflict to be sorted, which is a genocide competition, then Israel will win that competition. I assume you don't want that? "You're on stolen land and you've done it this time with the genocide, Israel, now you have to dissolve yourself and migrate back to Poland, Brooklyn and Iraq" is not a realistic ultimatum to deliver to a nuclear armed state established precisely because it's citizens experienced centuries of persecution living as scattered minorities.

                                 Israel under Netanyahu has done plenty to criticise but I would actually like to see an Israel/Palestine deal not the West following both sides into radicalisation.

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