Thread

1. armchairhacker · 1790606533 · focus · HN ↗

   My understanding is that it’s normalized by administrators, and the public doesn’t think much about it. Another issue is that some schools have heavy police presence and prison-like rules.

   I think a solution to both is to expel students who, for example, assault other students or teachers. Other commenters are blaming parents, and sure we should incentivize and facilitate better parenting, but in the short term what is more successful at reducing violence is expelling violent students.

   1. dominotw · 1790606908 · focus · HN ↗

      lol yea expel them and make it society at large problem because you expeling students reforms them

      1. calmworm · 1790607425 · focus · HN ↗

         What do you propose other than “lol” and sarcasm?

         Society at large has tools and systems in place to better deal with a violent person, student or otherwise.

         1. dominotw · 1790607600 · focus · HN ↗

            > Society at large has tools and systems in place to better deal with a violent person, student or otherwise.

            really? for minors?

            1. calmworm · 1790607810 · focus · HN ↗

               Yes.
      2. zetanor · 1790607447 · focus · HN ↗

         The bottom quintile (of stock, not of class) has always been society's problem. What changed is how they're dealt with.
      3. zdragnar · 1790607636 · focus · HN ↗

         It's society's problem regardless. Not expelling them just means the school itself is an incubator and breeder for antisocial behavior, and when they get out of school, they're still a problem.

         These schools certainly aren't reforming misbehaving students.

      4. dash2 · 1790607690 · focus · HN ↗

         Even if expelling students doesn't reform them: first, it protects other students; second, ex ante, it's an incentive to behave better in the first place. In fact there's quite good evidence that this works well. (You can check the evidence yourself, by asking ChatGPT "What's the evidence on expelling badly behaved students from schools?" or a similar question.)
      5. throwawayffffas · 1790608443 · focus · HN ↗

         They are already societies at large problem keeping them in the school degrades the function of the school for everyone while providing nothing of value to violent students.
   2. myrmidon · 1790607310 · focus · HN ↗

      Disagree with this.

      You are just pushing the problem down the road if you have an increasing number of violent kids and expel them all from school-- how are they ever going to become productive members of society? You just end up with society either paying for them being in prison, subsidizing them (because uneducated and unmotivated labor is close to worthless) or paying to literally clean up their shit because you basically routed them into a "careeer" as homeless person.

      If parenting standards have slipped so much that violence in schools becomes a significant problem, you need to either fix this by getting the parents to do better or by having the education system itself patch those deficits; any other "simple solution" is just gonna result in immense costs to your whole society that compound for decades.

      1. klooney · 1790607791 · focus · HN ↗

         What about the kids they assault while not being expelled?

         1. DaSHacka · 1790608324 · focus · HN ↗

            Exactly this. Some people seem not comprehend that infinite compassion for aggressors isn't "free"; it comes at the expense of their victims.
      2. bitfilped · 1790607885 · focus · HN ↗

         how are they ever going to become productive members of society?

         By learning, for likely the first time in their lives, that actions have consequences.

         1. myrmidon · 1790611903 · focus · HN ↗

            If the behavior of children was meaningfully driven by career consequences that are a whole lifetime in the future (from their point of view), then parents would have a very easy job.

            This is obviously not the case.

            Violent behavior obviously has to be sanctioned and hopefully corrected, but excluding children from education is not especially helpful there and has insanely costly side-effects.

      3. armchairhacker · 1790608167 · focus · HN ↗

         How will they become productive in school? Instead of wasting at home or on the streets, we could send them to the therapy they need. School shouldn’t be that therapy, it degrades the other students’ education.

         And maybe subsidizing them is the cheapest outcome: better we give them a small amount of money and get them to leave us alone, than spend more trying and failing to get them into schools, the workforce, or prison.

         1. myrmidon · 1790611559 · focus · HN ↗

            > Instead of wasting at home or on the streets, we could send them to the therapy they need.

            I'm not advocating against this. But keeping their education timeline somewhat on track is highly preferrable in my view (inserting "fixed delinquents" into classes of younger children seems very undesirable to me).

            > And maybe subsidizing them is the cheapest outcome: better we give them a small amount of money and get them to leave us alone, than spend more trying and failing to get them into schools, the workforce, or prison.

            I honestly don't see how this could ever apply.

            You have basically an average >$200k investment from the parents alone, plus all the direct/indirect subsidies starting with day care. Between low-wage working adult and "worthless person" there is at least a $50k/year swing in expected value to society every year they work, too.

            Even if your success rate of "fixing" child delinquents is laughably low (say 15%), and costs you like $100k per attempt it is easily worth it; its not even close.

      4. throwawayffffas · 1790608255 · focus · HN ↗

         My high school principal once told me after expelling me for a few days, don't worry it's not a big deal. When I was your age I was permanently expelled from half the schools in the county.

         Expulsions are not a sentence to prison. There are other schools. The objective is not to correct the behavior of the violent minority but to protect the rest of the student body and educators.

         The expelled student will eventually learn to tone down their behavior, they don't need to become saints or model students just to stop hitting people.

         That's how all other organizations work in the world, try hitting a waiter and then returning to the same restaurant. Why would hitting a teacher be different?

      5. gadders · 1790610522 · focus · HN ↗

         They will likely never become productive members of society.
      6. GetTheFacts · 1790653377 · focus · HN ↗

         >You just end up with society either paying for them being in prison, subsidizing them (because uneducated and unmotivated labor is close to worthless) or paying to literally clean up their shit because you basically routed them into a "careeer" as homeless person.

         That's letting things go way too far. If an incorrigible can be identified, whether that be via their bad behavior, phrenology and/or an excess of melanin, we can weed them out by age nine or ten, sterilize them to make sure they don't pollute our society even more, separate them from the decent, hardworking folks and, if they won't work for the benefit of the society that's footing the bill for their palatial accommodations, summary execution would certainly be warranted.

         The above is satire and quite disgusting. The sad part is all of you (and you know who you are) who nodded along with the above paragraph and thought, "Finally! someone is making sense and telling the truth!" are far too many and far too pleased with your hatred and disdain for your fellow humans. Have you no vestige of humanity within you? Shame on you!

         1. myrmidon · 1790679363 · focus · HN ↗

            I'm honestly not sure what exactly your point is?

            Some neofascists like eugenicist talking points?

            You lost me at "incorrigible" and honestly just mentioning phrenology will get every non-moron to just dismiss any argument.

            Do you believe that my argument is on a slippery slope towards eugenicist nonsense? I disagree on that and would argue the reverse; children are too valuable to immediately "discard" (by exclusion from education) because of delinquency.

            1. GetTheFacts · 1790744113 · focus · HN ↗

               Reading comprehension not your strong suit?

               I said:

               >The above is satire and quite disgusting

               about my statement. And I followed it up with:

               >The sad part is all of you (and you know who you are) who nodded along with the above paragraph and thought, "Finally! someone is making sense and telling the truth!"

               Do you fit into that category? If not, then my bile wasn't directed at you. Or did you miss that part?

               1. myrmidon · 1790856631 · focus · HN ↗

                  Sorry for the needlessly adversarial tone.

                  I had assumed that your hyperbole was directed at my paragraph you quoted, and ment to insinuate that said paragraph was only a few exaggerations apart from eugenicist nonsense.

                  1. GetTheFacts · 1790871110 · focus · HN ↗

                     >I had assumed that your hyperbole was directed at my paragraph you quoted, and ment to insinuate that said paragraph was only a few exaggerations apart from eugenicist nonsense.

                     No, you made it clear that you understand that warehousing children who have socialization issues was pretty stupid and a drain on the economy. And I agree.

                     There were several comments I could have used to platform my satire, yours was almost at random and not a reflection on your take. Apologies if I made it seem like I was associating you with my vile blather.

                     As I originally said, the sad part was all the folks "nodding along" with my "solution", of which there were, I'm sure, far too many.

                     It makes you wonder WTF is wrong with some people. :( :( :(

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