Thread

Alan Kay's answer to “Did the ENIAC have a BIOS”?

187 points · 74 comments · midnightfish

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octoberfranklin · 1790539145 · focus · HN ↗
www.quora.com Performing security verification This website uses a security service to protect against malicious bots. This page is displayed while the website verifies you are not a bot.
1. Apreche · 1790539412 · focus · HN ↗
  If you have too much adblock, as I do, you can never visit quora.com. The security check will just loop infinitely.
  1. LargoLasskhyfv · 1790540939 · focus · HN ↗
    Funny. Just tested that because I'm always told: too complicated, nothing will work!
    And got no check at all.
    HeatrayEnjoyer · 1790553729 · focus · HN ↗
    Threat intel of the IP or network you're coming from matter as much as anything else. FirefoxLinux on a clean IP can access places ChromeWindows on a dirty high-risk IP cannot.
  2. cgio · 1790541388 · focus · HN ↗
    Maybe the times are changing. Went through with Adblock and vpn. No looping.
tombert · 1790539661 · focus · HN ↗
Man I didn't even realize that Quora was still around, let alone prominent people still answering questions on it. I deprioritized it in my Kagi searches months ago and even then I didn't notice that much of a change in the quality of my searches.
1. Insanity · 1790542270 · focus · HN ↗
  Yeah this is the first time in months if not years that I’m seeing the website.
2. wildzzz · 1790542536 · focus · HN ↗
  Quora is such a gamble when it comes to accurate or relevant results. Either you get something incredibly insightful from someone with real experience or you get misinformation and stupid opinions. It's really only slightly helpful when I'm looking for subjective opinions or a personal perspective on some topic. It's very much a negative result when I'm looking for factual, verifiable information.
3. bonoboTP · 1790545503 · focus · HN ↗
  Some older people are on it, apparently, and some good experts among them too. Older folks often don't keep up with platform fashion. Some good older scientists even use academia.edu or researchgate...
  Of course I'd prefer if he answered on a StackExchange site, tho I heard those are in decline too, but at least not enshittified like Quora.
jshier · 1790539842 · focus · HN ↗
I'm pretty sure Kay's not quite correct about the Eniac not being a stored program computer. In it's original form it obviously was not, as it had to physically reconfigured to solve different problems. However, after the war it was rebuilt to operate like any other stored program (von Neumann architecture) computer, as it was the first recipient of the design philosophy seen in the EDVAC report. It operated in that mode from '48 to '55, when it was decommissioned.
ENIAC in Action: Making and Remaking the Modern Computer is an excellent summary of the initial design and redesign of the Eniac.
1. lacedeconstruct · 1790540835 · focus · HN ↗
  Apparently Eckert (John Mauchly and J. Presper Eckert designed the ENIAC) claimed that von Neumann basically stole their idea of the stored program and that they had already came up with the idea and he just took it and ran with it as if it was his
  > And John Von Neumann? He came and looked at our stuff and went back to Princeton and wrote a long document about the principles. He gets a lot of credit but the inventions were ours. Someday I’ll write a book on who really invented the computer.
  >Johnny learned instantly, of course, as was his nature. But he chose to refer to the modules we had described as “organs” and to substitute hypothetical “neurons” for hypothetical vacuum tubes or other devices which could perform logical functions. It was clear that Johnny was rephrasing our logic, but it was still the SAME logic. Also, he was introducing different but equivalent symbols; nevertheless the devices still did the same things. Johnny did NOT alter the fundamental concepts which we had already formulated for the EDVAC.
  >Small wonder, then, that computer history gave von Neumann the credit. Eckert and I, who left the Univ. of Penna. In 1946, no longer had access to the documents which might have helped to show “who did what, when.” But after many years, litigation has unearthed some of those documents, and historians can read what was once classified. But, even after declassification, those reports are not accessible to most people, since they were reproduced in such small quantities. Nevertheless, we hope that more historians will refer to them.
  1. jshier · 1790542132 · focus · HN ↗
    Eckert and Mauchly weren't reliable narrators of the history of their work, given how much they needed to claim in order to get the patents that were later invalidated. They claimed quite a few things that were later disproven in court or through historical study. At the least, Eniac was designed by the team at the Moore School.
    von Neumann's "First Draft of a Report on the EDVAC" was both a summary of discussions by the Eniac team as well as von Neumann's own original work proving and expanding on various aspects of those discussions. It's called the von Neumann architecture because he was the author of the seminal paper, not because he laid any particular claim to the ideas. Eckert and Mauchly were mostly upset about the paper's existence, regardless of author, because it made it impossible for them to patent the stored program idea in general.
    cornholio · 1790576835 · focus · HN ↗
    Story as old as time: corporate vs academia working towards very different goals and with different incentives, short term profit vs publication. In very rare cases, the scholar gets the rewards.
    sebastos · 1790581162 · focus · HN ↗
    >Eckert and Mauchly weren't reliable narrators of the history of their work, given how much they needed to claim in order to get the patents
    The existence of an incentive doesn't predestine the outcome.
    Von Neumann was the one who inappropriately failed to credit them in "First draft...". Goldstine was the one who distributed it knowing they were legally unable to publish themselves. These are the unethical actions that clouded the record. Between these two sides, I'll be trusting Eckert and Mauchly's account.
    >They claimed quite a few things that were later disproven in court or through historical study.
    Ehh.. I'm curious which things you're referring to. The patent trial was hogwash, so depending on the topic, 'disproven in court' could mean literally nothing. I hope you're not just an Atanasoff crank...?
2. HarHarVeryFunny · 1790544324 · focus · HN ↗
  Saying "like any other stored program computer" makes it sound like there were a bunch of them, but as I understand it there was really only ONE up and running at that time in 1948 - IBM's SSEC. The stored program EDVAC, whose architecture Von Neumann had formalized, was still not yet running, and Von Neumann personally advised on adapting ENIAC to this mode of operation.
  As I understand it, even after adaptation to "stored program" mode, the program was still configured rather than loaded and stored, but now configuration was done using the function table dials (essentially a dedicated dial for each program step) rather than patch cords, and was a lot more convenient. Punched cards could be used for reading/writing data, but not for programs.
  It seems there was no BIOS because I/O was so primitive. Per configuration a punched card would be read into the "constant transmitter" unit, then one of the read numbers could be copied into one of the 20 accumulators. Or you could do the same in reverse to output data from the accumulators.
  1. Animats · 1790551225 · focus · HN ↗
    Right. The patent refers to "semi-permanent cable connections" between card reader, registers, and printer. Basically, you could load and dump parts of memory, in decimal. The registers were all decimal, and so were IBM tabulators, so the interface is mostly a set of relays. No sign of format conversion or alphabetic capability.
  2. dTal · 1790551871 · focus · HN ↗
    >as I understand it there was really only ONE up and running at that time in 1948
    As a matter of interest, "that time" being April, it was only two months later in June that the Manchester Baby ran its first stored program.
retrac · 1790540030 · focus · HN ↗
EDSAC as early as 1949 had an "initial orders" module. A boot-up ROM. There was a bank of rotary selector switches, to set the octal digits in each ROM word.
David Wheeler (of subroutine fame) figured out the most sensible thing to put in the tiny ROM was a paper tape loader and mini-assembler that loaded the rest of itself from paper tape. So at switch-on the machine would start reading the tape input and run. Programs could be written on the teletype with mnemonics and relative addresses in octal.
It seems a little strange that more advanced later machines like the original PDP-11 from 1970, couldn't "autostart" from ROM like that. You had to toggle in a bootloader.
I think that was because core memory was non-volatile. (EDSAC didn't use core; it had a refreshing DRAM-like delay line memory.) With core, you only had to toggle the bootloader into once and, provided your software didn't accidentally overwrite it, it was still there after a power cycle. So re-toggling in the boot loader was not really that common, despite how much lore surrounds it.
1. TheOtherHobbes · 1790541475 · focus · HN ↗
  DEC supplied optional boot rom cards for UNIBUS, starting with the BM792, which arrived as a 32 x 16 matrix of diodes. You had to remove some of the diodes by hand to set the boot code.
  Later cards used PROMs. The later cards were pretty fancy. The M9312 had 512 words and included some basic CPU diagnostics. Different variants handled boot from disk, paper tape, console, etc, and you had to specify the options you wanted when you bought the card.
2. rootbear · 1790548666 · focus · HN ↗
  In Fred Hoyle’s science fiction novel, The Black Cloud, there is a computer in an early chapter that is clearly inspired by EDSAC. When they run a program on it, the process is just what you describe - they load a paper tape in through the tape reader, which Hoyle describes in detail.
  I first read that book before I knew that in British English a vacuum tube is called a valve (from thermionic valve and which makes more sense than the American term, I think), so I was confused by the line about how warm the room was due to all of the valves!
  1. monocasa · 1790555434 · focus · HN ↗
    We called them thermionic valves too, just the terminology shifted a bit over time. We also called capacitors "condensers". Both were references to steam powered control systems.
    _0ffh · 1790583381 · focus · HN ↗
    Hmm, I have read contradicting accounts.
    They say the term did not originate from the steam condenser. Quite the opposite, it became deprecated because of the ambiguous meaning of steam condenser.
    monocasa · 1790606672 · focus · HN ↗
    What I'm reading is that it originated as a metaphor to steam condensers, and was deprecated because the two different systems having the same term led to ambiguities.
    pezezin · 1790600123 · focus · HN ↗
    Many languages still call them "condensers"; from the top of my head, Spanish, French, Italian, German, Japanese, and likely many others.
    BoxOfRain · 1790602459 · focus · HN ↗
    Even in English in some cases the term is still used, for example in condenser microphones, and in the context of old mechanical fuel systems.
    rootbear · 1790691491 · focus · HN ↗
    My dad, a lifetime ham radio operator and an EE called them condensers sometimes. And would refer to frequencies in kilocycles.
  2. BoxOfRain · 1790603164 · focus · HN ↗
    Valve gear is particularly full of transatlantic differences, as well as valves vs tubes in many cases the same specific valves can have different names depending on the side of the Atlantic you're on such as EL84 vs 6BQ5. Your high voltage line is called HT in British but B+ in American, while what we'd call an anode in the UK is more commonly called a plate in the US. I'm not sure if it's as fixed but I've usually heard Americans calling what I'd call the heater the filament as well.
    While 'valve' makes more sense from the point of view of what it does, 'tube' makes more sense from the point of view of what it is I think.
3. analog31 · 1790552564 · focus · HN ↗
  Processes like this are where "boot" comes from. The machine was pulling itself up by its bootstraps. The ROM was sometimes called the "bootstrap loader."
4. raldi · 1790554949 · focus · HN ↗
  "Oh, I wonder which subroutine he came up with"
  (Googles it)
  "Ah"
  1. qingcharles · 1790560601 · focus · HN ↗
    "Which subroutine did he come up with?"
    "Yes"
    stinkbeetle · 1790571806 · focus · HN ↗
    "The"
5. muglug · 1790559194 · focus · HN ↗
  Very biased, but at Cambridge we were taught (by Maurice Wilkes among others) that the EDSAC was the first “useful” computer.
  1. limbicsystem · 1790605548 · focus · HN ↗
    I just met John Robson at a meeting who was one of the first people in the world to run a frequency domain analysis on time series data - on EDSAC! He spent a long time explaining the precise algorithms to me - amazing!
6. dirkt · 1790566188 · focus · HN ↗
  > It seems a little strange that more advanced later machines like the original PDP-11 from 1970, couldn't "autostart" from ROM like that.
  Because the PDPs had magnetic core memory, so the bootloader, once toggled in, stayed in memory. The OS took care not to overwrite it.
  And in normal operation you wouldn't have to use it at all, you just switched on your PDP, and it was in the same state as when you switched it off.
  Also, bootloaders were short (because peripherals had lots of intelligence); toggling one in was a matter of minutes.
  > I think that was because core memory was non-volatile.
  Exactly. And when RAM cards were available to replace core (very late in the lifecycle of the minis), the RAM was battery backed to simulate that behaviour.
7. Taniwha · 1790576889 · focus · HN ↗
  Yes that early pdp-11s had core memory, its contents survived power cycling. We'd hand toggle in the bootstrap into high ROM and start it, it would load whatever we were running from paper tape - unless you did something stupid that trashed that high memory you'd get to reuse the bootstrap over and over
  Having said that the bootstrap was something like 8 16-bit instructions, a pain but not impossible
  1. DonHopkins · 1790586627 · focus · HN ↗
    We had a GT40 at the University of Maryland Vax lab, which we would play Lunar Lander on when the Vax was down.
    Scott Swazey gave a great talk at VCF West 2024 about restoring a GT40 and getting Lunar Lander running on it again, and it touches on everything in this thread: core memory, bootloaders, front panel single stepping, light pens, and retyping lost ROMs from listings.
    <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6h6r6MGWyI" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6h6r6MGWyI
    Your point about core surviving power cycles is part of the game (19:44): "because the game has core memory which is nonvolatile, so when I turn off the machine it saves everything, all of the carcasses from the crash landers of all the failed attempts are scattered across the screen. And interestingly enough, if you leave the game running long enough the game will crash, because there's no more memory left for any more carcasses."
    <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6h6r6MGWyI&t=1184s" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6h6r6MGWyI&t=1184s
    It was also arguably the first Easter egg, in 1973 (20:17). Land next to the McDonald's and the astronaut walks over and says "I'll take two cheeseburgers and a Big Mac to go." At a show he crashed into it instead and got "You have destroyed the only McDonald's on the moon", and since core remembers everything, nobody else could find it after that (21:13).
    <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6h6r6MGWyI&t=1273s" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6h6r6MGWyI&t=1273s
    The GT40 came up in a bootloader and pulled programs down the serial line, so no toggling, but debugging it was pure front panel. Hitting line feed crashed the PDP-11, so he single-stepped through the bootloader with a diagnostic card, down to a byte compare of the high byte, which goes through a shift, and found a dead 74194 4-bit shifter (15:50).
    A PROM on one of the boards had failed, and no binary of it survived anywhere, so they typed its 256 entries back in from the listings (13:46). His rule number one is "don't trust anybody": he double-checked his friend's careful transcription and found two transposed digits that "would have created a bug so subtle that it would have taken us months to find it" (14:31). The same rule caught the downloaded diagnostics, which had a stray "!" and a newline inserted that made the loader abort (17:15). And on Bitsavers: "we could not have restored it without it" (13:10).
    <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6h6r6MGWyI&t=826s" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6h6r6MGWyI&t=826s
    Other highlights: Atari's 1979 Lunar Lander turns out to be a direct copy of the GT40's vector generator, binary rate multipliers and all, with a 6502, ROM and static RAM swapped in for the PDP-11 and its expensive core (5:11). At VCF Midwest the wall power sagged to 90 volts, so he ran it off his camping battery (23:39). And he showed it next to the PDP-11/45 that animated the Death Star trench briefing in Star Wars, with a dueling light pen battle between the two (24:46).
    I've been doing the same kind of thing without the soldering iron: bringing Heinz Lemke's 1972 PIXIE/SYMELEC light pen system for the PDP-7 and Type 340 back to life in a browser emulator, from a scanned listing, since no tape survives. Then DEC's own 1964 370 Light Pen Diagnostic, transcribed from a scan that skips from page 5 to page 7, so page 6 had to be rebuilt from how the surviving pages use each of its symbols.
    Scott's rule number one turned out to be mine too. Every bug falls into one of three kinds: ours (the emulator got it wrong), the transcription's (the listing was misread off the scan), and 1972's (the listing itself is wrong, and the emulator should faithfully reproduce the mistake). The first one was a truncated literal pool. The conversion stopped at word 11741, so every (JMP INT literal read as 0, and the machine initialized itself into a wall. So far, every bug had its answer on paper before anyone went looking. The emulator's job is to run the listing until it disagrees with itself, and then to show where.
    Bug Journal:
    <a href="https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main/packages/cabinet/BUG-JOURNAL.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main...
    370 Light Pen Diagnostic (DEC-4-45-M, 7-78-M):
    <a href="https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main/packages/cabinet/tapes/lp370/README.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main...
    1972 PIXIE PDP-7 Assembler Listings:
    <a href="https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/tree/main/characters/heinz-lemke/sources/pixie-assembler-listing-1972" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/tree/main...
    In 1972 the PDP-7 was the small one. It hung off Cambridge's Titan (an Atlas 2 that filled a room and ran the university) as a satellite, phoning home over Neil Wiseman's custom link to store and retrieve drawings in the Titan filestore.
    The emulator inverts that: tiny-titan is the whole of Titan, as much of it as PIXIE ever saw, in one TypeScript file, serving its emulated satellite from inside a browser tab. It implements only what the one surviving caller ever dialed, and SYMELEC's unmodified link code runs against it.
    Tiny Titan:
    <a href="https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main/packages/cabinet/TINY-TITAN.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main...
    tiny-titan.ts:
    <a href="https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main/packages/cabinet/src/plugins/tiny-titan.ts" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main...
    Flight of the PIXIE - Yuja Wang:
    <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDrqR9XssJI" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDrqR9XssJI
    PIXIE Live in PDP-7 Emulator with 340 Vector Display Simulator:
    <a href="https://hyperties.org/databases/pixie/pixie-live/" rel="nofollow">https://hyperties.org/databases/pixie/pixie-live/
    Press the "DEMO" button and it will make a goofy child's drawing with the virtual light pen. I plan to ask Claude to make a new demo by trying to draw a pelican riding a bicycle.
    Enable the MEMORY panel's "SOURCE" + "FOLLOW PC" mode, then slow the emulator down with the slider, to see the PDP-7 assembly source code it's executing (from the OCR of the scan of 128 pages of line printer output).
    You can also pick "LIGHT PEN TEST (1964)" from the menu and press "DEMO", or pick "DUEL (1968)" and play spacewar for two, DECUS 7-40, loaded from paper tape through the RIM loader, the PDP-7's version of your bootstrap.
    And I made a non-graphical "HILO (2026)" number guessing game and a "LUNAR LANDER (2026)" game to test out the TTY simulator. The lander is in the spirit of the turn-based original Scott describes (1:52), before the GT40 made it real time: "YOU ARE 500 FEET UP, FALLING AT 50 FT/S, WITH 60 UNITS OF FUEL."
    Lander README:
    <a href="https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main/packages/cabinet/tapes/lander/README.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main...
    lander.s:
    <a href="https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main/packages/cabinet/tapes/lander/lander.s" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main...
    PDP-7 Unix is coming soon. Warren Toomey, Phil Budne, Tom Everett, Sebastian Rasmussen, Robert Swierczek and friends did this kind of restoration on a much bigger scale with the pdp7-unix project. Starting in 2016 they typed in Ken Thompson's 1969-70 PDP-7 Unix from Norman Wilson's scans of the only surviving printouts, wrote a cross-assembler (as7) and a user-mode simulator, and got the kernel booting to a shell with a working filesystem.
    In 2019 a second notebook of missing sources turned up and was scanned and typed in too, and in January 2020 it ran on a real PDP-7 at the Living Computer Museum. It even has moo, the bulls-and-cows number guessing game, a 1970 cousin of my HILO.
    PDP-7 Unix:
    <a href="https://github.com/DoctorWkt/pdp7-unix" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/DoctorWkt/pdp7-unix
    Recovered Unix documents:
    <a href="http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/McIlroy_v0/" rel="nofollow">http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/McIlroy_v...
    Their as7 was the precedent for my own assembler, which can run in the browser and produce symbol tables and source maps, the way a TypeScript to JavaScript compiler does. That's what drives the Memory panel's Source + Follow PC mode, and it's the groundwork for live coding:
    <a href="https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main/packages/cabinet/src/asm.ts" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main...
    To run Unix, the cabinet needs what its SIMH script asks for: 8K with EAE, the teletype, the clock, and the RB09 fixed-head disk. It loads boot.rim, and the bootstrap reads the system from disk. So the new part is porting SIMH's RB09.
    B comes with it: the interpreter (bi.s) and loader (bl.s) survive in the scans, and Robert Swierczek rebuilt the missing compiler in 2016. There's no C on the PDP-7. C came later on the PDP-11, and B was Thompson's cut-down BCPL.
    The plan is in the cabinet README:
    <a href="https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main/packages/cabinet/README.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main...
    And a couple days ago Mitch Bradley wrote a PDP-7 FORTH for it, including a Turtle Graphics package, which I'll integrate soon too! That's the other half of live coding. My assembler is TypeScript running on the emulator host, but Forth will run on the PDP-7 itself: you type new definitions at the emulated teletype, and the turtle draws them on the 340, interactively, in a language living inside the machine.
    B compiles to threaded code too, so the cabinet will have two threaded interpreters, 1970 and 2026, running side by side!
    Fittingly for a thread about whether the ENIAC had a BIOS: Mitch is the one who wrote Open Firmware, the Forth-based boot firmware in Sun workstations, PowerPC Macs, and the OLPC XO. So the PDP-7 is getting its Forth from the same man who invented Open Firmware to put Forth in the BIOS.
    Mitch Bradley's PDP-7 Forth:
    <a href="https://github.com/MitchBradley/pdp7forth/tree/main" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/MitchBradley/pdp7forth/tree/main
    PDP-7 Forth — Design Notes:
    <a href="https://github.com/MitchBradley/pdp7forth/blob/main/DESIGN.md" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/MitchBradley/pdp7forth/blob/main/DESIGN.m...
    turtle.fs: Turtle Graphics for 340 vector graphics processor in FORTH (which works by assembling 340 display IOT opcodes):
    <a href="https://github.com/MitchBradley/pdp7forth/blob/main/lib/turtle.fs" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/MitchBradley/pdp7forth/blob/main/lib/turt...
    Mitch Bradley singing the Open Firmware Song
    <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Wyvb9GotM" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Wyvb9GotM
    Mitch Bradley shows and explains Open Firmware
    <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvxxAeuhPp0" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvxxAeuhPp0
    Mitch's threading technique is a new one, as far as we can tell, small fast and elegant on the PDP-7. NEXT is three instructions, and the core of it is XCT I 10: it bumps an auto-index register and executes the thread cell it points at, so every cell in a compiled definition is itself a PDP-7 instruction, and its opcode is its type. CAL enters a colon word, JMP runs a primitive, and LAC or LAW pushes a constant or variable.
    That makes location 10 a second program counter, running a virtual machine whose instruction set is the PDP-7's own. It doesn't fit Anton Ertl's threading taxonomy. For publication, "XCT Threading". For the T-shirt, "Indirectly Direct Threading".
    PDP-7 Forth XCT Threading:
    <a href="https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main/characters/heinz-lemke/sources/pdp7-reference/PDP7-FORTH.md#xct-the-instruction-that-executes-another-instruction" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main...
  2. drivers99 · 1790602964 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    justin66 · 1790629915 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
  3. rswail · 1790662411 · focus · HN ↗
    The first machine I ever played with was a PDP-11/10 with 16K of "core" and 3 ASR-33s & a VT52 connected by 20mA current loop serial.
    Bootstrap was a small set of octal instructions on a piece of paper stuck to the front panel.
    That was enough to load the "absolute loader" from paper tape on one of the ASR-33s, which then loaded blocks of BASIC from paper tape.
    It was a "multi-user" BASIC that dropped string functions (except CHR$()) in exchange for allowing 3 users.
8. HarHarVeryFunny · 1790602798 · focus · HN ↗
  The EDSAC's "boot ROM" consisted of a bank of large electro-meachanical "uniselector" rotary switches, hardwired to contain the 31 instructions ("initial orders") of the tape loader.
  Subsequent computers could have followed this "electro-mechanical ROM" approach, but I suppose it was rather bulky and inconvenient to change.
  You can see what the uniselectors looked like here at 8:50
  <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc945sNB0uA" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc945sNB0uA
  Of course programmable ROM chips would have to wait, so in the meantime the alternatives were either the toggle-it-in approach (still also used by the 1974 MITS Altair 8800), or other more compact types of handmade/hardcoded physical ROM such as magnetic core or diode matrices.
  1. CobaltFire · 1790618401 · focus · HN ↗
    The Harris 100 launched in 1978 still used a bank of toggles for initial load.
    I was operating and maintaining several until about a decade ago.
    HarHarVeryFunny · 1790623500 · focus · HN ↗
    That's a bit surprising on a more expensive machine.
    How often would you reboot them?
    CobaltFire · 1790626594 · focus · HN ↗
    Typically daily. They were used for troubleshooting and repairing military avionics. They survived decades onboard ships, etc. They got temperamental in their later years, but we kept them going.
9. nyeah · 1790605729 · focus · HN ↗
  [delayed]
10. jesuslop · 1790645956 · focus · HN ↗
  TIL about delay line memory, thanks! Curious idea. Wikipedia says Alan Turing proposed the use of gin as an ultrasonic delay medium :-)
adamddev1 · 1790541782 · focus · HN ↗
Alan Kay answering questions on Quora. What a cool gift to the world!
This is one of the thing we lose as more and more of the conversations turn to people privately asking LLMs things, who do their best to scrape out answers from the existing info or make up a best guess. People are losing the ability to ask experts with real, unique knowledge and then share that knowledge with humanity.
1. keithnz · 1790554701 · focus · HN ↗
  he answers questions here too
triyambakam · 1790543350 · focus · HN ↗
The most surprising thing about this to me is Alan Kay answering questions on Quora.
1. dang · 1790552092 · focus · HN ↗
  He's been doing that for years. I wish he'd come back to HN though!
  <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/posts?id=alankay">https://news.ycombinator.com/posts?id=alankay
  1. DonHopkins · 1790570251 · focus · HN ↗
    Me too. It's a shame he doesn't post here more often, because Quora's thoroughly enshitified user interface is so spectacularly hard to use and intentionally, aggressively, darkly patterned.
    Quora has at least three different ways of folding content, and each one needs its own click: answers truncated at "(more)", comments collapsed behind "View comments", and nested replies collapsed again behind "View more replies", yet tellingly no "Expand all" button.
    For logged-out readers there's also a login wall that blurs the rest of the page. The whole thing is fragile. Click the wrong thing, hit Back, or refresh, and it forgets everything you expanded and where you were scrolled, and dumps you back into a feed of unrelated "related" answers.
    Worst of all, there's no way to link to a comment so that it restores your viewpoint and opens everything back up. The link lands on a page with everything folded again, and whoever you sent it to has to redo all the clicking to find what you meant. While HN has one kind of fold, [–], and every comment has a permanent item id that takes you straight to it, expanded and in context.
    Maybe his last long visit here didn't leave him with a good impression of the "civilized behavior" of Hacker News. hota_mazi aggressively argued that Alan didn't coin the term "object-oriented," and then, when challenged, posted a bunch of unsubstantiated disrespectful misinformation.
    Worse, hota_mazi did it while attacking Alan's friend Joe Armstrong in Joe's own memorial thread, days after Joe died, when Joe could no longer answer for himself. Alan exasperatedly asked him twice to do his homework.
    Joe Armstrong died on April 20, 2019. The next day his essay "Why OO Sucks" was posted here, and the thread became a place to remember him.
    <a href="https://www.cs.otago.ac.nz/staffpriv/ok/Joe-Hates-OO.htm" rel="nofollow">https://www.cs.otago.ac.nz/staffpriv/ok/Joe-Hates-OO.htm
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19715191">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19715191
    arendtio wrote:
    > Actually, this is not really about if OO sucks, but to reflect on one of the articles Joe Armstrong wrote. Joe passed away two days ago.
    oldpond wrote:
    > Joe was truly one of the greats. [...] Thank, Joe.
    (Not everyone was so kind. Someone posted just "Why Joe Armstrong sucks"; it's [dead].)
    The top comment, by rhblake, quoted Joe's own 2010 explanation of why he changed his mind about OO:
    > "Then, my thesis supervisor said "But you're wrong, Erlang is extremely object oriented". [...] Alan Kay himself wrote this famous thing and said "The notion of object oriented programming is completely misunderstood. It's not about objects and classes, it's all about messages"."
    That's Joe, in his own words, crediting his supervisor and Alan. hota_mazi replied to it, two days after Joe's death, by accusing both men of opportunism [log in and set showdead=true to view flagged posts]:
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19716281">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19716281
    hota_mazi on April 22, 2019 [flagged]:
    > Both Alan Kay and Joe Armstrong struck me as having had the same attitude of trying to capitalize on the topic of object oriented programming, failing to recognize its importance, and then later trying to appropriate it by redefining it.
    > Not the best moment of these otherwise two bright minds.
    skndr asked:
    > Didn't Alan Kay coin the term "object oriented"?
    Before Alan had even joined the thread, hota_mazi dismissed Alan's own account of his own work:
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19716318">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19716318
    hota_mazi on April 22, 2019:
    > That's what he claims but there's zero evidence besides his own word.
    lliamander asked the obvious question:
    > Well, how large is the pool of other possible candidates? Wouldn't someone from that time period (say the Simula folks, or another PARC employee) challenge that assertion?
    So did DonaldPShimoda:
    > Ah, so you have evidence that it was somebody else?
    hota_mazi admitted he had none:
    > I don't, but that's not how the burden of proof works.
    DonaldPShimoda, who works in programming language research, set him straight:
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19716632">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19716632
    > Every source I've ever come across on this topic (and I work in PL research) points to Kay as the originator of the term "object-oriented" in relation to programming. No exceptions.
    > You are now making an affirmative assertion that Alan Kay did not coin the term. The burden of proof is on you, not him.
    hota_mazi demanded the sources while still rejecting the claim while hypocritically not doing any homework or providing any sources to his misinformation:
    > Link these sources, then! Even someone who recently interviewed him and researched the subject for months confessed he could never corroborate that claim.
    > You make the claim he coined the term, the burden of proof is on you.
    > Until you do, it's perfectly reasonable and intellectually honest to reject that claim.
    DonaldPShimoda:
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19716791">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19716791
    > This would be just like saying "Well I don't think da Vinci really made the Mona Lisa. I mean, all we have is his word for it." [...]
    > Your position is not "intellectually honest" because it sincerely looks like you're just trying to be antagonistic.
    Then Alan arrived and said it plainly, in his own words:
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19717640">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19717640
    alankay on April 22, 2019:
    > I didn't coin the term "object" -- and I shouldn't have used it in 1966 when I did coin the term "object-oriented programming" flippantly in response to the question "what are you working on?".
    And he replied directly to hota_mazi's first comment:
    > This is way off. Please try to do more homework.
    hota_mazi wasn't done with Joe. lliamander had challenged him:
    > I'd be really interested to hear what you think they missed, because I find your claim to be surprising and a bit preposterous.
    So, in the thread where people were mourning Joe, hota_mazi explained that Joe had been a bandwagon-chaser who bent the definition of OOP to cash in on its success:
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19716419">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19716419
    hota_mazi on April 22, 2019 [flagged]:
    > Armstrong wrote the very famous "Why OO sucks" and then a decade or two later, changed his mind when he saw how successful OO was, and then tried to retrofit Erlang into an OO language. Not by changing Erlang, but by twisting the definition of OOP so that Erlang would fit it.
    That contradicts Joe's own explanation, quoted at the top of the same thread, and Joe was no longer alive to correct it. revvx did it for him:
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19716488">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19716488
    > Joe Armstrong was criticizing C++-style OOP when he wrote his critique. After he learned more about Alan Kay's view on OOP, he decided that Erlang is closer to Alan Kay's OOP and he approves that specific flavor of OOP. He didn't change his stance based on popularity.
    And Alan, two days after losing his friend, was left defending Joe's character:
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19717646">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19717646
    > That isn't what happened at all (see the rebuttal by revvx). Joe was a great guy and also a great systems thinker. And he was the last person to worry about "bandwagons" (quite the opposite!)
    hota_mazi doubled down, arguing that since mainstream OOP ended up meaning something else, Alan's and Joe's view didn't count:
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19716595">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19716595
    > He doesn't even mention C++ in his essay [1], but regardless, the C++ OOP is pretty much the mainstream OOP, which we still use today in Java, Kotlin, C#, etc...
    > And... no, the change in mindset about OOP never happened. Kay and Armstrong's view of OOP never took on. Today, OOP is still not seen as message passing and mostly seen as polymorphism, parametric typing, classes/traits/interfaces, and encapsulation. The complete opposite of what Erlang is.
    > [1] <a href="http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/OO_programming/why_oo_sucks" rel="nofollow">http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/OO_programming/why_oo_suck...
    revvx:
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19716625">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19716625
    > I'm the one mentioning C++. To anyone familiar with both styles, Joe Armstrong is clearly not talking about Smalltalk-style OOP in his essay, he's talking about C++/Java/etc style. And later on he only praised Smalltalk-style OOP.
    To which Alan could only say, again:
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19717662">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19717662
    > Again, please do your homework.
    On top of that, people doubted it was really Alan at all. hannofcart asked:
    > Are you the Alan Kay. Is there any way we can verify this is you? The HN user account seems to have a very low "karma" rating, so one can't help but be more suspicious.
    Alan answered:
    > I'm the "computing Alan Kay" from the ARPA/Parc research community (there's a clarinettist, a judge, a wrestler, etc.) I did create a new account for these replies (I used my old ARPA login name).
    DonaldPShimoda still wasn't sure:
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19721376">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19721376
    > I'm a little skeptical. [...] A one-day-old HN account claiming to belong to one of the most important people in CS from the past 50 years seems a little suspicious haha.
    That's what Alan was answering with his weary verdict:
    <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19721772">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19721772
    alankay on April 22, 2019:
    > An interesting and unfortunately true commentary on the lack of civilized behavior using technology that actually required a fair amount of effort -- and civilized behavior -- to invent in the first place.
    (To DonaldPShimoda's credit, he apologized, and Alan graciously reminisced about crawling over Simula machine code listings unrolled down the hallways of the Merrill Engineering Building.)
    A week later Alan was still correcting the record, when someone misquoted him:
    > Actually, I said: "I invented the term "object-oriented", and I didn't have C++ in mind". In other comments here I explain why "object-oriented" was a too quick and bad choice for what I thought I was doing ...

NelsonMinar · 1790544074 · focus · HN ↗

I had Claude Opus disassemble the CDC 6600 dead start panel. The hard part was finding a better image of the switches so the vision could read the bits.¹

The content isn't very interesting, and Claude's comments aren't very detailed. Not bad for 2 minutes of work about a 62 year old computer though. Look out Ken Shirriff, AI is coming for you.²

  Addr   Octal   Instruction      Meaning
  0001   7512    DCN  12          Disconnect channel 12 (put it in a known idle state)  
  0002   7712    FNC  12, 4000?   Send function code to channel 12&#x27;s device  
  0003   4000?                      └ function code (last bit unclear: 4000 or 4001)  
  0004   7712    FNC  12, 0001    Send another function code
  0005   0001                       └ function code
  0006   7712    FNC  12, 1500?   Send a third function code
  0007   1500?                      └ function code (least certain row)
  0010   2000    LDC  0160?       Load A with a word count
  0011   0160?                      └ the count
  0012   7412    ACN  12          Activate channel 12
  0013   7112    IAM  12, 0015    Read A words from channel 12   into memory starting at 0015
  0014   0015                       └ destination address

1. <a href="https://dyninst.github.io/scalable_tools_workshop/petascale2017/assets/slides/HPC.history.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://dyninst.github.io/scalable_tools_workshop/petascale2...

2. Not really. I have no idea if this disassembly is corrrect.

3. Quora is prison for words.

elzbardico · 1790547311 · focus · HN ↗
Have you checked this is accurate?

charcircuit · 1790548747 · focus · HN ↗
BIOS wasn't a concept until 1975 with CP/M so it isn't possible for a computer older than that to have one.
1. RiverCrochet · 1790560664 · focus · HN ↗
  Many people unfortunately completely conflate one or more of these terms to generically mean "ROM-resident code that enables a device to self-bootstrap": BIOS, UEFI, firmware, bootloader, boot ROM, boot flash, IPL, (boot) monitor, microcode
Walf · 1790573147 · focus · HN ↗
So early computers did have BIOS, but they loaded from wetware rather than firmware?
DonHopkins · 1790573626 · focus · HN ↗
[dead]
cold_boot · 1790582753 · focus · HN ↗
Kay nails it: the ENIAC 'BIOS' was literally a team of humans with patch cables. Makes you appreciate modern bootloaders.
1. SoftTalker · 1790613604 · focus · HN ↗
  Even into the "modern" microprocessor era, a lot of them had no BIOS to speak of they just loaded the first instruction from a standard address (e.g. 0000) and started running.
harlan_pdx · 1790585594 · focus · HN ↗
Leave it to Alan Kay to articulate the spirit of a BIOS, even for ENIAC. Those fundamental abstractions persist.
Segv77 · 1790588612 · focus · HN ↗
Reading Kay's take reminds me those guys were the BIOS. Fascinating how computing evolved from pure hardware, not just software.
Mugshelf · 1790589927 · focus · HN ↗
Kay probably explained how we were the BIOS then, flipping switches and loading programs by hand. Different era!
seanc · 1790601856 · focus · HN ↗
How often would those cold-start switches be altered?
Just when they wanted to swap tape-reading hardware?
Or did different programs want slightly different loaders?
coldpie · 1790602277 · focus · HN ↗
Somewhat tangential, I've watched a bunch of videos on YouTube from @deramp5113 about the Altair 8800 and other early microcomputers, which feature a similar set of front panel switches for dialing in your initial program. One thing that's interesting to me, as someone who learned computing in the late 90s, is how much is expressed in octal instead of hex on these early computers.
As shown in the linked picture, the byte pairs are divided into [4 groups of 3] instead of [3 groups of 4] switches. I believe, maybe someone can confirm, that octal notation is easier to translate into bits than hex is. We just don't do either of those things terribly often anymore, so octal has mostly fallen out of favor, perhaps because it groups less nicely into multiples of 8.
Nowadays I almost never think in octal. The only time it seems to come up is for Unix file mode switches (chmod etc), which likely date to this time when octal was more common.
Just some interesting cultural drift.
1. z500 · 1790603250 · focus · HN ↗
  [delayed]
  1. voidUpdate · 1790603815 · focus · HN ↗
    AFAIK, a "byte" is 8 bits, but a "word" wasn't quite decided yet, and they were often divisible by 3, making octal make more sense
    ElevenLathe · 1790605144 · focus · HN ↗
    Was this at all related to standard tubes using octal sockets?
    voidUpdate · 1790605455 · focus · HN ↗
    Octal sockets are just tube sockets with 8 pins, it doesn't mean they calculate in octal
    ElevenLathe · 1790613674 · focus · HN ↗
    Right, how could they? It's just one tube.
    rswail · 1790662922 · focus · HN ↗
    On a PDP-11 there were 8 registers, R0-R7, with R6 being the (default) stack pointer and R7 being the program counter.
    There were 8 address modes for each register.
    So a src/dst instruction used up 12 bits for the src/dst+modes, a single register instruction used 6 bits.
    You could load the registers directly at addresses 177770 through 177777 on the front panel. So if your program was 5 words long, you could load that into registers R0-R4, then load R7 with the address 177770 and execute.
2. AkBKukU · 1790605179 · focus · HN ↗
  I have restored a Data General MicroNOVA that also uses octal. It has an emulated front panel over serial and uses octal in multi-digit commands like specifying which address you want to boot from, "33L" to book from an MFM disk controller for example. That is probably a legacy carryover from the NOVA 3 and earlier where you would be able to input the same thing into the front panel switches.
  Fundamentally I wouldn't say octal is fundamentally easier to interpret other than hex because it's just half as many digits. The shorthand things about octal used in unix you mentioned all still technically apply to hex as well. The only really tricky part is where it becomes letters and you have to think if D or E is the odd value with the first bit set. If you were doing hex all day though, the 6 hex letter patterns would be pretty easy to memorize.
  Personally I would say for front panel systems specifically was just about physical space for the switches. If you look up CPU trainers for something like Intel 8080 in the Altair 8800, you'll see it uses a hex keypad. Multiple 16b values would have been a lot harder to fit in single bit switches.
3. SoftTalker · 1790613350 · focus · HN ↗
  Octal allowed used of simpler numeric displays (numeric nixie tubes or 7-segment displays) as you only needed digits and not ABCDEF that you'd need for hex notation.
  1. rswail · 1790662670 · focus · HN ↗
    Octal on a PDP-11 meant that the instruction set (16 bits) allowed two-register instructions with src/dst register and modes taking up 12 bits.
    So you programmed the front panel with 3 fingers for octal instead of 4 for hex.
rbanffy · 1790615172 · focus · HN ↗
I don't remember any CP/M system with the BIOS part in ROM. It would be possible, of course, but every subsequent version of CP/M for that machine would need to be able to work with the "frozen" BIOS, and I'm not sure CP/M was designed thinking of mixing BIOS/BDOS versions.
Saying that, I think the Epson PX-4 and PX-8 had CP/M in ROM.
aduffy · 1790616424 · focus · HN ↗
Guy who still writes Quora answers
m463 · 1790625171 · focus · HN ↗
So isn't the BIOS sort of an intermediary artifact?
I think when CPM booted, there must have been some hardcoded disk firmware to get the boot sector into memory.
The IBM PC bios was burned into the system.
I think the boot process is multifaceted and can have as many stages.
glacee · 1790666751 · focus · HN ↗
Boot loader before init. Point is that ISO runs with .img files.

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