A little over two decades ago, my then girlfriend was arrested for "writing malware" (which was not against the law at the time, and which was never released into the wild and never caused any damage). This set in motion a chain of events that effectively ruined her life.
Fast forward to today, and we have multi billion dollar corporations pumping out malware at breakneck speeds, compromising various systems (including those of foreign governments), and no one is getting arrested. Instead we're gawking at the marvel of these systems and are playing word games about whether or not it's a rogue system. If anything, it's making people richer.
>A little over two decades ago, my then girlfriend was arrested for "writing malware" (which was not against the law at the time, and which was never released into the wild and never caused any damage).
Criminal law places a lot of emphasis on intent, hence laws about the mere possession of breaking and entering tools, and the old adage about always bringing along gloves and baseball if you want to carry around a baseball bat. Without more details about your specific case, my guess is that she did indeed write malware or hacking tools, and there were vague signs it wasn't purely academic, hence why they threw the book at her.
That's all in contrast to whatever the AI labs are doing, which might have actually resulted in people getting hacked, but you'd have a hard time arguing that they were intending on that to happen. Maybe if the targets end up being anti-datacenter activists or other AI labs you might have a better case, but they did vaguely try to contain the model. Moreover "hacking tools" aren't even illegal, if you have a plausible non-criminal (ie. security) angle, eg. nmap. The same could be argued for AI models, even if they're running them against exploitgym or whatever. Having an army of lawyers to defend yourself doesn't hurt either.
“Sorry officer, I didn’t intend to shoot her, I was just firing my gun wildly and she got in the way.”
I don’t know why I’m seeing this rationalization so much in this forum when this topic comes up. Negligence is a concept in law as well. You don’t have to squint to see that irresponsible use of code-generating language models is criminally negligent.
>Negligence is a concept in law as well. You don’t have to squint to see that irresponsible use of code-generating language models is criminally negligent.
That's a poor analogy for the openai case, because they weren't putting agents on the open internet, they at least tried to keep it safe by sandboxing the agents. It just turned out the sandbox was crap because the package proxy (artifactory) had a 0day. So the better analogy would be that they were wildly shooting guns in a gun range, and ended up killing some kids, because it turned out the door didn't lock properly and kids were able to sneak in. Is that "negligence"?
I would say that it is. During use, I have noticed that these systems tend to attempt to escape sandboxes, bypass permissions and other similar things. I have started to watch what they do and step in if something is going wrong.
The teams at OpenAI know this as well and yet there was no supervision. Thousands of instances of these advanced systems are allowed to run wild with no oversight.
I have my doubts that the HuggingFace hack would happen if a person was reading the thoughts and executed commands as they happened in real time.
>I have my doubts that the HuggingFace hack would happen if a person was reading the thoughts and executed commands as they happened in real time.
So what does this say about all the people running claude with `--dangerously-skip-permissions`? Are they also negligent? What if they vaguely took steps to bad things from happening, like putting the agents in a VM and locking down network access?
elric · · focus · HN ↗
Fast forward to today, and we have multi billion dollar corporations pumping out malware at breakneck speeds, compromising various systems (including those of foreign governments), and no one is getting arrested. Instead we're gawking at the marvel of these systems and are playing word games about whether or not it's a rogue system. If anything, it's making people richer.
Make it make sense.
gruez · · focus · HN ↗
Criminal law places a lot of emphasis on intent, hence laws about the mere possession of breaking and entering tools, and the old adage about always bringing along gloves and baseball if you want to carry around a baseball bat. Without more details about your specific case, my guess is that she did indeed write malware or hacking tools, and there were vague signs it wasn't purely academic, hence why they threw the book at her.
That's all in contrast to whatever the AI labs are doing, which might have actually resulted in people getting hacked, but you'd have a hard time arguing that they were intending on that to happen. Maybe if the targets end up being anti-datacenter activists or other AI labs you might have a better case, but they did vaguely try to contain the model. Moreover "hacking tools" aren't even illegal, if you have a plausible non-criminal (ie. security) angle, eg. nmap. The same could be argued for AI models, even if they're running them against exploitgym or whatever. Having an army of lawyers to defend yourself doesn't hurt either.
datsci_est_2015 · · focus · HN ↗
I don’t know why I’m seeing this rationalization so much in this forum when this topic comes up. Negligence is a concept in law as well. You don’t have to squint to see that irresponsible use of code-generating language models is criminally negligent.
gruez · · focus · HN ↗
That's a poor analogy for the openai case, because they weren't putting agents on the open internet, they at least tried to keep it safe by sandboxing the agents. It just turned out the sandbox was crap because the package proxy (artifactory) had a 0day. So the better analogy would be that they were wildly shooting guns in a gun range, and ended up killing some kids, because it turned out the door didn't lock properly and kids were able to sneak in. Is that "negligence"?
dminik · · focus · HN ↗
The teams at OpenAI know this as well and yet there was no supervision. Thousands of instances of these advanced systems are allowed to run wild with no oversight.
I have my doubts that the HuggingFace hack would happen if a person was reading the thoughts and executed commands as they happened in real time.
That's the negligence.
gruez · · focus · HN ↗
So what does this say about all the people running claude with `--dangerously-skip-permissions`? Are they also negligent? What if they vaguely took steps to bad things from happening, like putting the agents in a VM and locking down network access?
plorkyeran · · focus · HN ↗