Has an AI agent ever woken itself up without a prompt and run a forward pass towards some goal, aligned or misaligned?
The answer is a very clear no. And yet, these companies pretend like this fundamental fact is meaningless to the concept of agency.
The issue comes to the fore when you try to give these agents a prompt that allows them to stay active for long. Long range agency requires long range loops of activity.
Within such loops, these so called “agents” are curtailed by their context window, or, in multi agent scenarios, by the fact that their memory is a system of external notes, that they need to add to their context to make sense of, and depending on the content of these memories, this can take arbitrarily long time periods.
In dynamics, none of this matches any biological agent, down to a bacterium. Perhaps a viral life cycle has information dynamics that come close.
To me, it’s beyond odd we call these thing agents without acknowledging the clear differences in the dynamics of their behavior. We keep expecting them to have “human like” behavior, but that is entirely unfounded given the substrate differences between biological and artificial systems.
The sooner we learn the difference and explore the ways in which it matters, the better we’ll get at dealing with these systems without bias tinted glasses where what we want these systems to be blinds us to what they actually are.
Then you don’t understand evolution. Evolution isn’t design. A human writing a prompt is giving specific instructions to an AI model.
No such equivalent prompt saying “reproduce” can be found for evolution. And plenty of evolutions “products” in fact don’t reproduce, by choice or because they don’t find a mate who’ll take em, or because they have fundamental issues in their reproductive biology.
This is all aside from comparing a process that’s played out for about 4 billion years and declaring we’ve matched it because we got some agents to stay active for a bit of time by telling them to and giving them the energy they need, no questions asked. Certainly, evolution doesn’t give us any such comforts to carry out any “prompts” you can imagine it giving us, yet here we all are.
There is still a prompt in these continuously active agents. As the link says:
“ it runs continuously and makes decisions on its own (within the boundaries you’ve set)”
More importantly, this setup of any other, is feeding in time externally. The agents themselves have no internal sense of time.
Pretty much all of biology has endogenous rhythms at various timescales (some bacteria and archaea, that live very short lives, may not, but even they may have their metabolism under a rhythm. Viruses definitely don’t have one). These rhythms continue to tick even when external time signals (light availability in day vs night being the big one, and tidal forces, for marine life) are removed. That is, in constant conditions, the rhythms keeps ticking.
This temporal awareness is baked into every cell in our bodies. And entirely absent in AI models. Which is why all kinds of higher level things we hear about, like consciousness, feeling, knowledge… they don’t make sense for AI. A foundational aspect of agency in biology has been nixed out and we keep ignoring this.
> They're called agents because they can act on our behalf. Which they do.
That’s not how most AI companies describe their agents. They describe them as being capable of acting on their own behalf.
I get that in computers, you can have, say, a “user agent” that deterministically provides certain information or takes some action on behalf of the user.
AI companies clearly do not mean this when they say their models are “agentic”, otherwise calling them “rogue” would make no sense. A user agent that screws up didn’t do so for its own purposes did it?
randomImmigrant · · focus · HN ↗
The answer is a very clear no. And yet, these companies pretend like this fundamental fact is meaningless to the concept of agency.
The issue comes to the fore when you try to give these agents a prompt that allows them to stay active for long. Long range agency requires long range loops of activity.
Within such loops, these so called “agents” are curtailed by their context window, or, in multi agent scenarios, by the fact that their memory is a system of external notes, that they need to add to their context to make sense of, and depending on the content of these memories, this can take arbitrarily long time periods.
In dynamics, none of this matches any biological agent, down to a bacterium. Perhaps a viral life cycle has information dynamics that come close.
To me, it’s beyond odd we call these thing agents without acknowledging the clear differences in the dynamics of their behavior. We keep expecting them to have “human like” behavior, but that is entirely unfounded given the substrate differences between biological and artificial systems.
The sooner we learn the difference and explore the ways in which it matters, the better we’ll get at dealing with these systems without bias tinted glasses where what we want these systems to be blinds us to what they actually are.
IshKebab · · focus · HN ↗
Yes, I think people do experiment with continuously running AI, e.g.
<a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/LLMDevs/comments/1sblzbe/what_i_learned_running_an_alwayson_ai_agent_in/" rel="nofollow">https://www.reddit.com/r/LLMDevs/comments/1sblzbe/what_i_lea...
It's not a common thing to want though. Much nicer if we control the prompts.
> To me, it’s beyond odd we call these thing agents without acknowledging the clear differences in the dynamics of their behavior.
They're called agents because they can act on our behalf. Which they do.
rororoyourboat · · focus · HN ↗
That’s what makes it a continuous running “prompt”
IshKebab · · focus · HN ↗
randomImmigrant · · focus · HN ↗
No such equivalent prompt saying “reproduce” can be found for evolution. And plenty of evolutions “products” in fact don’t reproduce, by choice or because they don’t find a mate who’ll take em, or because they have fundamental issues in their reproductive biology.
This is all aside from comparing a process that’s played out for about 4 billion years and declaring we’ve matched it because we got some agents to stay active for a bit of time by telling them to and giving them the energy they need, no questions asked. Certainly, evolution doesn’t give us any such comforts to carry out any “prompts” you can imagine it giving us, yet here we all are.
rororoyourboat · · focus · HN ↗
randomImmigrant · · focus · HN ↗
“ it runs continuously and makes decisions on its own (within the boundaries you’ve set)”
More importantly, this setup of any other, is feeding in time externally. The agents themselves have no internal sense of time.
Pretty much all of biology has endogenous rhythms at various timescales (some bacteria and archaea, that live very short lives, may not, but even they may have their metabolism under a rhythm. Viruses definitely don’t have one). These rhythms continue to tick even when external time signals (light availability in day vs night being the big one, and tidal forces, for marine life) are removed. That is, in constant conditions, the rhythms keeps ticking.
This temporal awareness is baked into every cell in our bodies. And entirely absent in AI models. Which is why all kinds of higher level things we hear about, like consciousness, feeling, knowledge… they don’t make sense for AI. A foundational aspect of agency in biology has been nixed out and we keep ignoring this.
> They're called agents because they can act on our behalf. Which they do.
That’s not how most AI companies describe their agents. They describe them as being capable of acting on their own behalf.
I get that in computers, you can have, say, a “user agent” that deterministically provides certain information or takes some action on behalf of the user.
AI companies clearly do not mean this when they say their models are “agentic”, otherwise calling them “rogue” would make no sense. A user agent that screws up didn’t do so for its own purposes did it?
williamse · · focus · HN ↗
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