Thread

If we do not stop to help each other, what do we become?

212 points · 100 comments · signa11

AndrewKemendo · 1790488159 · focus · HN ↗
Community activists have been saying his for millennia but it’s not possible. Like literally every “prophet” as said almost exactly this since pahotep (<a href="https://kemendo.com/WOPFirstPrint.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://kemendo.com/WOPFirstPrint.pdf)
I’ve personally started a half dozen different communities over the last 20 years. some last longer than others but almost none last beyond the moment leaders stop putting effort into them, which is the fate of every community.
As a serial community organizer I can tell you definitively that there are no long lasting communities drums eventually turn into an obvious scam on someone or finding increasingly unhinged people willing to stick to a mythology.
I would love for not this to be true but I’ve yet to find an example otherwise
Pick a group: shriners, elks, masons, religious groups, cults, wellness groups, drug user communities, veterans, long distance runners, gardeners etc…
It literally doesn’t matter, none of them last unless there’s some kind of expectation that either you’re going to get some financial or opportunity to improve your social standing or access to resources unavailable to “those people out there.”
It’s a shame really, but that’s the limits of human society it seems.
1. em-bee · 1790557740 · focus · HN ↗
  sorry for your experience, but i disagree. first my personal experience is different. i have been in and led groups that survived leadership changes and are still active almost a decade after i left as a leader. i also come from a culture where organizing is a cultural trait strong enough that there is a dedicated legal structure for it. whether community survives or grows depends on the culture the community is created with or instilled by its members. the group i was running was a linux user group where i took over from previous leaders. until i took over the majority of group members were expats, many of which left the country at some point which is how i got to lead the group. i had to rebuild and instilled a culture of delegation and getting others to contribute. i did that until all the work was done by various members and they didn't need me anymore. i stayed with the group until i moved cities. and as i said the group is still active.
  my brother was in a group where members had to be less than 27 years of age. in the year of your 27th birthday you became an old sock and left. and despite that this group put out high quality guide books on how to identify plant and animal species which is their main interest. it was founded 75 years ago and is still active. no financial or social standing opportunities to be had.
  again, i am sorry for your experience, but this is absolutely not the limit of human society.
  1. AndrewKemendo · 1790560929 · focus · HN ↗
    A 75 year old organization isn’t long enough to say anything about
    I’ve got 20 year old communities still running that I revitalized or started: 97.7 kafa and the ultramarathon subreddit are two trivial ones off the top of my head
    I’m talking about multi generational organizations 350, 500, 1000 year old organizations.
    em-bee · 1790562577 · focus · HN ↗
    ok, i didn't get that from your post. most groups you mention as example are not in that category. except for religious groups (and cults with are a subset of religious groups) none of the groups have any expectation to last. so i don't quite get what your point is.
    you argue that the fate of groups is to end when leaders stop putting effort, which is kind of self evident unless there is an underlying premise that is able to outlast the individual groups. my group was effectively dead before i took over. i rebuilt it almost from scratch. that was only possible because it was based on an underlying idea that others could identify with that was not dependent on my person. FOSS groups come and go but the FOSS community as a whole won't ever die. same goes for religion. at least the kind of religion that is based on written word.
    why is a 75 year old organization not old enough? given that members can join at most 15 years, that's already 5 generations.
    you also argue that the only thing that makes groups last is money or social status. if that were the case most groups would not even start.
    i understand your personal experience, and that's fine, but that has nothing to do with multi generational organizations. it seems to me that you are mixing two unrelated things here.
    AndrewKemendo · 1790608665 · focus · HN ↗
    From the article:
    "Perhaps the LLMs are a reminder that we should make an extra effort to cultivate relationships with each other and form communities online – communities that belong to us, not some billionaire. Communities where we regularly stop to help each other, because that's how we learn too."
    This is the organizing principle of every "community" group since forever. I fail to name one organization that does the above.
    Every organization that comes close has some kind of transactionalism built in. The fact of a transaction happening, corrupts the entire premise.
    em-bee · 1790689223 · focus · HN ↗
    part of the problem of figuring this out is the kind of transaction happening. you seem to define the transaction as something that needs to be evenly distributed among all members. because as i understand it, that's the only way the premise can be corrupted, by producing uneven (unfair?) outputs for the members.
    but i see that differently. people join a group because they get something out of it, sure. but what they get out of it is being part of a community and contributing to a common goal. that some people contribute more and others less does not matter. at least in the groups i was or am in. we joined the linux user group because we believe in the ideals of FOSS. some may help others, but that's not the reason for joining. same goes for religious groups. the goal of those groups, the motivation to participate is not the transaction. it's the belief in the underlying principles. these groups will fall apart if they fail to attract new members, but the ideals, if they matter, will survive.

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